Texas Gov. Abbott wants to get rid of mandatory public education

[Ladewig]

Did Abbot ever put a number to these “extraordinary expenses” or is he doing all this DeSantos style i.e. no actual evidence but plenty of claims that are to be accepted by the faithful?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

“The official theory of evolution” shows your ignorance. While the basic structure of evolution as proposed by Darwin is in place evolution has undergone multiple, multiple changes to its aspects over the years.

Shhh! That's heresy in this forum. According to others in this forum, there is only a single unchangeable "fact" of evolution which tolerates no modifications whatsoever.

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

This would be like saying kids should jump off tall buildings and lick outlets because gravity and electrical theory are also theory and denying letting kids do this is “close-minded”.

I don't understand this belief that it is clever to say something stupid. What do you think happens in a lab class? Does the teacher say "do what you **** well like"?

[newyorkguy]

That there are costs associated with an influx of students -- whether documented or undocumented -- seems pretty obvious. Some of the extra costs associated with the undocumented kids include expanding bi-lingual instruction (and not just Spanish), remedial education for kids whose schooling has either been inadequate, interrupted or both and providing support for children who have been traumatized by events in their home country, events during their migration, anxieties associated with the social stigma they bear or all three.

I would like to see Democrats kind of 'co-opt' this issue by making it about getting Texas public schools the resources they need, including the federal assistance Abbott has talked about. Thereby getting the issue of banning children of undocumented parents from public schools 'off the table' so to speak.

Let's not forget, anti-immigration is an issue that has been a galvanizing event for populist right-wing political groups in Europe. I'm sure our 'conservative' friends here are well aware of this and see an opportunity to both create trouble and energize their supporters.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Warp12

First off, I am not saying that no children have a right to an education here. I think you know this.

I am saying that children of illegals should not have that right. I don't think they should be granted citizenship just because they were born here, either. As far as their burden to the US while growing up uneducated, there shouldn't be one. They should not be allowed to stay here.

But they are, Blanche, they are in this country!

Whether you like it or not, there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of 'illegal' children in this country. And many, if not most of them, are going to grow up here and become adults here. Sure, we could deny them schooling and have a horde of illiterate and ignorant people trapped in the poverty cycle which is the main feeder of crime. But, hey, you just focus on keeping those babies getting past the cervix gate and don't worry about the ones actually here. So much for "Think of the children" and the Party of "Family Values".

[Stacyhs]

"Texas spends a minimum of $6,160 per student, which lags behind the national average of $12,600 in 2018."


Well now....that sure explains a lot.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Warp12

First off, I am not saying that no children have a right to an education here. I think you know this.

I am saying that children of illegals should not have that right. I don't think they should be granted citizenship just because they were born here, either. As far as their burden to the US while growing up uneducated, there shouldn't be one. They should not be allowed to stay here.

Forget that pesky old Constitution! People born in the United States are "granted" citizenship by the manner in which the Constitution defines citizenship. One could amend the Constitution to redefine that right, but until that happens, the word "granted" implies a power to dispense rights that does not exist.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Because that is not what you are saying.

You can't doctor past posts. The GOP agenda is irrelevant. It was the idea of teaching "critical thinking" (not creationism) in the classroom that is being knocked and I was criticized for defending critical thinking. If you don't believe me then read some of the responses.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Which of course is the exact opposite of the truth. You won't find a single post of mine that says that YEC or any other form of creationism should be taught in schools.

Are you even fooling yourself? Nobody said you were saying YEC should be taught in schools. What we are saying is that you were taking the GQP's statement at face value, which, again, is quite apparent from your post #10.

Do you live off beating up strawmen? Is this the only way you think you can win the argument?

Quote:

It has been, is and always will be about critical thinking (ask Darat).

Nothing of what you have been claiming has anything to do with critical thinking beyond you bleating the term like a parrot.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by The Don

The thing is that, if polls are to be believed, creationism is a view held by a sizeable minority of the US population - approaching 50%. Bearing that in mind, the demand to teach creationism and/or intelligent design instead of evolution is hardly surprising.

Add in a version of US history which skips over all of the uncomfortable bits, abstinence only sex education and a desire for teaching Christianity and it's fairy tales all the way down.

The DUPpies writ large.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Darat

And no one has said they do.

I suspect the conservative wish they did. I went to school in that era. Learned little truth, little of use except a graphic lesson in how the world is run by bullies and former bullies and bureaucratic cowards.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by plague311

Who said that? I haven't read that anywhere in this thread.

And you won't. It is completely made up - pulled directly from his arse without even touching the sides!

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

I hope that this can be worked out. That a way can be found to provide some support for Texas schools which are, undoubtedly, being strained by the large influx of undocumented students. To do it in a way that supports both. Public school education for children regardless of their immigration status, and providing financial support for public schools in Texas. But in the current atmosphere of hyper-partisanship, along with the current vindictiveness of conservatives, you wonder how this will turn out.

Are they? Is there actual evidence for this?

[jimbob]

I have moved 74 posts to a new thread in Religion and Philosophy about whether science is a religion. That is not an appropriate subject for this section or this thread

Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob

New thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=358749

[bruto]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Are they? Is there actual evidence for this?

I'd be interested to see that, but I suspect it will be possible to find, though the evaluation of the strain could be subjective. As a resident of a small town which has had considerable strain on its budget, not by an influx of immigrants, but by other population changes, it's not hard to find even if it is also something that can be justified and lived with. For a small school district, an influx does not need to be enormous to be significant, and special education and services are more expensive than the regular stuff. The money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere will lead back to taxation somewhere for sure. The further out from the local school the expense comes, the less individual burden it will entail, and I suspect that Texas could afford it if it wanted to. And in addition, state tax revenue is not property based, and thus less likely to exclude the people who benefit from it.

But while I think the schools should continue to teach whoever is there, and the society will end up better for it, I can imagine that some communities with small school districts will have a legitimate beef.

[Norman Alexander]

Just a reminder: As I understand it, if any person presents themselves at a US border and requests residency or asylum for themselves and their family, they are not "illegals". That is the legal way to obtain US residency, either temporarily or permanently. Exactly the same process would apply to me, an old white Caucasian English-speaking male, as it does for them.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Not if I'm writing the law, they aren't.

Another conservative who hates the constitution. So sad.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Warp12

The whole "taxpayer" thing is a different debate. Lets just say that if Juan buys a Snickers bar and pays 5% in taxes from his under-the-table job, it is not the same as me paying 35% out of my paycheck, plus that 5%.

Remember, technically these kids should not even be here in the first place. Their illegal parents made that decision. It isn't about who's "sins" they are paying for. All of that falls on the parents, imo. And nobody should have to provide any resources for these people, educational or otherwise.

Neither of those taxes pay much towards education in the state of Texas. Education in Texas is primarily funded by property taxes, which every renter helps their landlord pay by paying rent. So, it is nearly impossible to live in the state without paying for education. The lottery also pays a bit towards education, and is played more by the working poor than the wealthy.

If you want to stop illegal immigration it is simple: fine employers until it is no longer possible for illegals to find work. That has never been supported by republicans in Texas. It is seen as anti-business.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Just a reminder: As I understand it, if any person presents themselves at ^{a US border and requests residency or asylum for themselves and their family}, they are not "illegals". That is the legal way to obtain US residency, either temporarily or permanently. Exactly the same process would apply to me, an old white Caucasian English-speaking male, as it does for them.

And it applies in exactly the same way at the Canadian border.

Of course we haven't heard any poutrage from the usual suspects about those people* and it is easy to literally see why that is?

*I expect we will now that I have mentioned it.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

...Education in Texas is primarily funded by property taxes, which every renter helps their landlord pay by paying rent...

This is how the school tax is levied in New York.

Quote:

What factors influence your school tax bill?
There are four major factors that are used to calculate your property’s school tax bill:
a) Your school district’s tax levy.
b) Your property’s assessed value.
c) The equalization rate for your property’s taxing jurisdiction.
d) Your property’s STAR (New York State School Tax Relief Program) exemption value.

Who determines each of the four factors that influence your school tax bill?
a) The tax levy is set by the school district.
b) Your property’s assessed value is determined by your local property assessor

Even in New York we have had people ranting about undocumented kids going to public schools and the expense. I saw a news video about an incident at a suburban school board meeting (I posted it here earlier). The meeting was held for the public in line with transparency requirements. I don't recall what it was about but it had nothing to do with the tax levy.

During the presentation by the school board president you could hear yelling from the audience. You couldn't make out what they were yelling and the board members seemed surprised but they didn't otherwise react. It was the MAGA faction. After the presentation the board said they would take questions from the audience. They warned that they had a limited amount of time and they would only entertain questions having to do with the evening's topic.

A man got up and began ranting about the school having gone virtual during the pandemic. The board president cut him off, saying he understood the man's concerns but that was not related to the evening's announcement. Then a woman got up. She was obviously very angry and she began yelling about "all these illegals" and why "do I have to pay for their schooling?" Some of the audience members were loudly cheering her on. She became so disorderly she was finally removed from the meeting by police.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

And it applies in exactly the same way at the Canadian border.

Of course we haven't heard any poutrage from the usual suspects about those people* and it is easy to literally see why that is?

*I expect we will now that I have mentioned it.

"Fauxrage" - The moment a conservative pretends to be outraged about something so he can continue to be outraged about the thing he is really outraged about specifically because someone (rightfully) brought up "If this was true shouldn't you also be outraged about this other thing?"

[Donal]

Of course, they don't show nearly as much anger at that other thing that "I'm mad about that". Mainly all these "small government fiscal hawks" when you bring up military spending.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Donal

Of course, they don't show nearly as much anger at that other thing that "I'm mad about that". Mainly all these "small government fiscal hawks" when you bring up military spending.

Oh it's laughably transparent when they do it, it doesn't even rise to the level of plausible deniability, but its enough to work in a post-fact world.

The only things you actually care about are the things you care about organically without being prompted to care about. That's why I always call them out on the "I'm totally not on X's side, but I'm going to spend literally every moment of every argument arguing for X" thing they love to do so much.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

This is how the school tax is levied in New York.


Even in New York we have had people ranting about undocumented kids going to public schools and the expense. I saw a news video about an incident at a suburban school board meeting (I posted it here earlier). The meeting was held for the public in line with transparency requirements. I don't recall what it was about but it had nothing to do with the tax levy.

That is what they get for not living in a school district that is out of the reach of residency by the poor.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

This is how the school tax is levied in New York.


Even in New York we have had people ranting about undocumented kids going to public schools and the expense. I saw a news video about an incident at a suburban school board meeting (I posted it here earlier). The meeting was held for the public in line with transparency requirements. I don't recall what it was about but it had nothing to do with the tax levy.

During the presentation by the school board president you could hear yelling from the audience. You couldn't make out what they were yelling and the board members seemed surprised but they didn't otherwise react. It was the MAGA faction. After the presentation the board said they would take questions from the audience. They warned that they had a limited amount of time and they would only entertain questions having to do with the evening's topic.

A man got up and began ranting about the school having gone virtual during the pandemic. The board president cut him off, saying he understood the man's concerns but that was not related to the evening's announcement. Then a woman got up. She was obviously very angry and she began yelling about "all these illegals" and why "do I have to pay for their schooling?" Some of the audience members were loudly cheering her on. She became so disorderly she was finally removed from the meeting by police.

I don't think anyone is doubting that weird freaks are concerned about this problem, it's more a question of whether they can actually prove their claims or if they're just the racists they very obviously seem to be.

The parents of immigrant children pay property taxes the same as anyone else. While changing demographics of an area (more children per capita) could change the proportion of public spending on education, I don't see how citizenship status applies.

Texas itself is experiencing an economic boom (in some areas) that is attracting immigration, both illegal and legal (including from other states). I imagine there has to be some readjustment of local budgets as populations change and grow.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I don't think anyone is doubting that weird freaks are concerned about this problem, it's more a question of whether they can actually prove their claims or if they're just the racists they very obviously seem to be.

I'm going with the latter on that one!

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The parents of immigrant children pay property taxes the same as anyone else.

A fact that "the latter" conveeeeeniently overlook

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Texas itself is experiencing an economic boom (in some areas) that is attracting immigration, both illegal and legal (including from other states).

And that boom is largely supported by immigrants because they do the work, the hard yards. No immigrants, no boom... and this is another inconvenient fact that "the latter" struggle to explain.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can't doctor past posts. The GOP agenda is irrelevant. It was the idea of teaching "critical thinking" (not creationism) in the classroom that is being knocked and I was criticized for defending critical thinking. If you don't believe me then read some of the responses.

Um, no. I think I know exactly what I was knocking better than you. Critical thinking is absolutely necessary in classrooms so please, don't insult us by claiming creationism and climate change weren't the real reasons behind that agenda.

[Susheel]

When knee-jerk contrarianism to "teach the libs" override commonsense engagement in a discussion.

[mgidm86]

Originally Posted by Armitage72

And critical thinking, which has "the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

That's it right there. Proof that Republicans need and desire an uneducated populace in order to hold power.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I said "illegals" a lot. I mean a whole lot. Like, in almost every post.

Yes, I noticed your attempts at othering. They're not us so they don't deserve what we have.

The right to elementary and fundamental education is universal. it doesn't matter who you are, who your parents are, or where they came from. Every child has the right to be educated.

Originally Posted by Universal Declaration on Human Rights, Article 26

1. Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
2. Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
3. Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/unive...f-human-rights

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yes, I noticed your attempts at othering. They're not us so they don't deserve what we have.

The right to elementary and fundamental education is universal. it doesn't matter who you are, who your parents are, or where they came from. Every child has the right to be educated.



https://www.un.org/en/about-us/unive...f-human-rights

So let them be educated in their own country, on their dime. I don't give a rat's ass about the children of illegals.

"Othering". LMAO.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

That's it right there. Proof that Republicans need and desire an uneducated populace in order to hold power.

Quote:

I love the poorly educated.

Donald Trump, Feb 23, 2016

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Warp12

So let them be educated in their own country, on their dime. I don't give a rat's ass about the children of illegals.

"Othering". LMAO.

So abortion is OK for their mothers, I take it?

Is that one of those "Family Values" you conservatives are so fond of?

[newyorkguy]

The reality is, yes there is a cost to a school district when enrollment rises but Texas educators -- as opposed to, I guess Texas Republicans -- are not overly concerned with the effects of the arrival of a large group of undocumented people. Below are quotes from the CBS News affiliate in Austin, Texas.

Quote:

The Texas House Committee on Public Education is researching the issue ahead of the next legislative session. They're trying to figure out how much the state will have to pay to educate the children of the migrants who are planning to enter the U.S. in South Texas...A school official from one district just 10 miles from the border testified he’s not worried about additional students. J.A. Gonzalez, superintendent of McAllen ISD says, “Currently the way things are laid out many of the students are bypassing the Rio Grande Valley and many are going to sanctuary cities like Chicago or different cities across the nation." CBS News Austin link

A private research group, Every Texan, found "undocumented workers add more than $100 billion annually to the Texas economy." A recently updated report by the Baker Institute showed immigrants, including undocumented immigrants, benefit the state financially. "They pay taxes, they pay franchise taxes, they pay sales taxes and especially the property taxes that pay for our education."

Another Texas educator suggested a reason why it is important to educate kids residing in Texas, all kids, including the children of the undocumented.

Quote:

Ricardo Lopez with Garland ISD says, “It is about workforce development. In the end when we look at schools it's about how are kids going to develop into young productive citizens that are in our workforce."

But as at least one poster has made clear, and this is seems to be a fairly common attitude among MAGA people, he's against educating the children of the undocumented on emotional grounds.

He don't like 'em!

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Warp12

So let them be educated in their own country, on their dime. I don't give a rat's ass about the children of illegals.

"Othering". LMAO.

If they are born here this is their country, they are American citizens. You don’t care about your fellow citizens.

Even if they pay more than their fair share. **** ‘em.

That can’t possibly lead to societal problems down the road when some citizens are not educated at all. We may end up with citizens and voters who can’t understand basic facts. Just kidding. That’s what Fox News is for.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

If they are born here this is their country, they are American citizens. You don’t care about your fellow citizens.

I think I've already made it clear that I don't think that just because they were born here of illegals, that they should be citizens. So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil...now we owe them? That is just dumb policy.

They aren't my "fellow" citizens, that's for sure.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I think I've already made it clear that I don't think that just because they were born here of illegals, that they should be citizens. So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil...now we owe them? That is just dumb policy.

They aren't my "fellow" citizens, that's for sure.

Yet you were granted the same right of citizenship in the exact same way. Do you think retrospective changes should be made to remove citizenships from all the people like you that were simply born in the USA?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

...snip...

Another Texas educator suggested a reason why it is important to educate kids residing in Texas, all kids, including the children of the undocumented.

...snip...

Whilst it is a rational reason I do think it is sad how we tend to view children's education.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Darat

Yet you were granted the same right of citizenship in the exact same way. Do you think retrospective changes should be made to remove citizenships from all the people like you that were simply born in the USA?

The position for some (many ?) Republicans is that there are only two ways to become an American citizen:

1. Be born to American Citizens (though some would expand this to include couples where only one is a citizen and the other has indefinite right to remain and a very few may even consider being born to legal residents who aren't citizens).
2. Become a naturalised citizen by passing the requisite tests and of course subject to there being enough available capacity for new citizens

I suppose they think that parents should pay for the education of non-citizen children.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Darat

Yet you were granted the same right of citizenship in the exact same way. Do you think retrospective changes should be made to remove citizenships from all the people like you that were simply born in the USA?

Wrong. My parents were not here illegally. My mother was a legal immigrant.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Don

The position for some (many ?) Republicans is that there are only two ways to become an American citizen:

1. Be born to American Citizens (though some would expand this to include couples where only one is a citizen and the other has indefinite right to remain and a very few may even consider being born to legal residents who aren't citizens).
2. Become a naturalised citizen by passing the requisite tests and of course subject to there being enough available capacity for new citizens

I suppose they think that parents should pay for the education of non-citizen children.

I actually agree that there should be other considerations than just being born on USA soil but that isn't the USA constitutional position and I believe it would require an amendment to the USA constitution to alter it.

Warp12 seems to be saying "If the world was different..." but the world isn't different, in every sense someone born on USA soil has the same citizenship as Warp12 for the same legal reasons as Warp12 has USA citizenship.