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Tags adolf hitler , Josef Stalin , Robert Conquest , Soviet Union history , Tim Snyder , World War II history

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Old 1st June 2018, 02:40 PM   #361
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The figures for Stalin's direct killings appear to be

Great Purge (19361938): 900,0001.2 million
Katyn massacre (1940): 22,000
NKVD prisoner massacres (1941): 100,000500,000

This would add up to almost 2 million.
Stalin massacred roughly 1% of the population of the USSR. Nazi Germany massacred some 17% of Poland's population.
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Old 1st June 2018, 02:47 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Stalin massacred roughly 1% of the population of the USSR. Nazi Germany massacred some 17% of Poland's population.
So what?

Osama bin Laden massacred 100% of the fathers of children whose fathers died in the 9/11 attacks. What's your point?

Last edited by theprestige; 1st June 2018 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 1st June 2018, 03:18 PM   #363
Craig B
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So what?

Osama bin Laden massacred 100% of the fathers of children whose fathers died in the 9/11 attacks. What's your point?
You're not being serious about that. Fathers of children whose fathers were killed necessarily by definition die in any event which causes death. You're being mischievous.

It is interesting that your mischief is deployed in mitigation of Hitler's killings in Poland, where his criminality reached a peak. You exculpate Hitler in order to make a point about a Muslim criminal, and your point is in any case a definitional game, as if there were not enough valid reasons to condemn bin Laden.

It has been pointed out in the past that Stalin's victims were primarily his own subjects, but Hitler's were mainly citizens of countries he invaded. That is the "point" of lobosrul5 citing deaths in Poland, I imagine.
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Old 1st June 2018, 03:31 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So what?

Osama bin Laden massacred 100% of the fathers of children whose fathers died in the 9/11 attacks. What's your point?
What do you mean so? Would you rather be faced with a 1% chance of being murdered or a 17% chance? Both are bad, but one is numerically, far far worse.
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Old 1st June 2018, 03:34 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It has been pointed out in the past that Stalin's victims were primarily his own subjects, but Hitler's were mainly citizens of countries he invaded. That is the "point" of lobosrul5 citing deaths in Poland, I imagine.
While that is true*, my main point was, the Poles under Nazi Germany fared far worse than Soviet citizens during Stalins reign. They of course fared far better under their own government.

*His regime did also see many many POW's killed.
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Old 1st June 2018, 03:51 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
While that is true*, my main point was, the Poles under Nazi Germany fared far worse than Soviet citizens during Stalins reign. They of course fared far better under their own government.

*His regime did also see many many POW's killed.
These POWs were also "citizens of countries he invaded". And you are of course entirely right about Hitler's and Stalin's respective regimes in Poland. Hitler intended to destroy the Polish people. Stalin intended to exploit them. His Polish client regimes were oppressive and authoritarian, but not genocidal.
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Old 1st June 2018, 05:08 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
What do you mean so? Would you rather be faced with a 1% chance of being murdered or a 17% chance? Both are bad, but one is numerically, far far worse.
If that's the question wouldn't a percentage of world population be a better metric?
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Old 1st June 2018, 07:11 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If that's the question wouldn't a percentage of world population be a better metric?
Hitler didn't rule the whole world. If Stalin murdered his own people and Hitler murdered people in countries he invaded, then the best metric is Stalin's 1% against the average % of the population killed in all the countries occupied by Hitler.

But that is misleading too, because both tyrants had special targets so treated different populations differently, which invalidates "average" figures. Stalin hated prosperous peasants; Hitler hated Jewish Russians more than he hated Flemings. So what's his "average"?

ETA Also, I gave a reason in #360 why I think 1% for Stalin is a significant underestimate
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
... I'd be inclined to add the number of deaths due to ill treatment of people unjustly detained in prisons or labour camps as a direct result of Stalin's decrees. Their number must be very large.

Last edited by Craig B; 1st June 2018 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 04:26 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
These POWs were also "citizens of countries he invaded". And you are of course entirely right about Hitler's and Stalin's respective regimes in Poland. Hitler intended to destroy the Polish people. Stalin intended to exploit them. His Polish client regimes were oppressive and authoritarian, but not genocidal.
Mostly citizens of countries that invaded his country. Finns excepted.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 12:37 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Mostly citizens of countries that invaded his country. Finns excepted.
Sorry i thought you were referring to POWs held by the Nazis.
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Old 20th June 2018, 08:28 AM   #371
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Old 24th June 2018, 10:18 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
They were more concerned with how many Nazi's the Soviets were killing at the time...
But it gets worse. Not only did they ignore the Holodomor -
www.ucrdc.org/Film-Harvest_of_Despair.html
they helped to cover up the Katyn massacre.
Churchill covered up for Stalin -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJ1_RG2xS4
and Roosevelt covered up for Stalin.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206
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Old 25th June 2018, 01:54 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
But it gets worse. Not only did they ignore the Holodomor -
www.ucrdc.org/Film-Harvest_of_Despair.html
they helped to cover up the Katyn massacre.
Churchill covered up for Stalin -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJ1_RG2xS4
and Roosevelt covered up for Stalin.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206
These are remarkable sources. But remind us again why the UK and the USSR were allies in 1943.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 11:06 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Last summer, I was watching my cousin's four-year-old-daughter, and she said, "I want you shave your mustache so it only under your nose," while using her fingers to cover the ends of my mustache.

"No, I'm not going to do that."

"Why not?"

"I'll explain it to you when you're older, Sweetheart."

"'Splain it to me now."

"All right. A long time ago, when Aunt Nancy* was your age, Germany was ruled by a very evil man named Adolf Hitler. He started a war that killed millions of people, and he murdered millions more just because they were different. He had a mustache like that, and if I shave mine that way, people will think I support him."

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*My mother, who was born on Kristallnacht.

I took her and her eight-year-old sister to the library* the other day, and at one point they ran well ahead of me. When I caught up I found them looking at some display cases that contained photos and artwork from the siege of Leningrad. A nearby sign indicated that these were being exhibited in conjunction with the recent performance of Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony by the Fort Wayne Philharmonic. The older one asked me what it was about.

I tried to explain briefly and simply, and then I asked the younger one, "Do you remember last summer when you said you wanted me to shave my mustache so it was only under my nose, and I said I wasn't going to because the evil ruler of Germany had one like that?"

<noncommittal shrug>

"Well, he's responsible for all this death and destruction. The evil ruler of Russia also bears some responsibility, but Adolf Hitler was mostly responsible."

I wish their oldest sister, who likes to read about the Holocaust, had been with us, but she was grounded for misbehaving.
___________

*It might be worth mentioning that, according to the American Library Association, Fort Wayne has the best library in the $10-30 million budget category, by a wide margin.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:07 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
But it gets worse. Not only did they ignore the Holodomor -
www.ucrdc.org/Film-Harvest_of_Despair.html
they helped to cover up the Katyn massacre.
Churchill covered up for Stalin -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJ1_RG2xS4
and Roosevelt covered up for Stalin.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206

All well known, and none of it makes the Holocaust carried out by Nazi Germany one bit less despicable, nor indeed those who act as apologists for their actions.
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