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Old 13th June 2019, 02:37 AM   #2681
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Telegraph journalist and Boris supporter complains to BBC about

Quote:
Sky News’s Beth Rigby and her editorialising question. Much like yours, shamefully biased.
for asking questions at Boris press conference about some of his past dealings.
Goes onto say
Quote:
If @BBCNews continues to distort and withhold information from viewers there will be trouble.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:44 AM   #2682
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Telegraph journalist and Boris supporter complains to BBC about

for asking questions at Boris press conference about some of his past dealings.
Goes onto say


Baby Trump already? Will he soon categorise his total slagging-off of Trump a few years ago as 'fake news'.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:48 AM   #2683
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yes, but how can you legislate to avoid the default? What would replace it that might survive a vote? My default is failing to run a 4-minute mile, and no legislation could make me do it even if I were willing.
Make it mandatory to withdraw article 50 if they can not pass a deal.
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:00 AM   #2684
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Make it mandatory to withdraw article 50 if they can not pass a deal.
How do you propose to get that through?
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:06 AM   #2685
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I've been looking into Leadsom, as she's a candidate for PM. On her wiki pages it reads:
Quote:
When I came into Parliament, like most people in the country I'd grown up as part of the EU and it's absolutely part of our DNA and I came into Parliament, set up something called the Fresh Start Project, which took hundreds and hundreds of hours of evidence about how the EU impacts on the UK – on everything from immigration to fisheries and so on... During that process I travelled all across Europe with lots of parliamentary colleagues – up to 100 Conservative colleagues supporting this work – to try and get a really decent, fundamental reform of the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Leadsom

Is there a report (or even evidence) for this. Do these Tories have evidence that support their claims about the EU, that we would be better leaving?
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:21 AM   #2686
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
My analysis is simple
A no deal Brexit is dead in the water due to numbers in parliament..
Brussels will not renegotiate the Theresa May deal Brexit.
That deal will never get the votes.
Therefore Brexit is in a state of permanent hiatus while business as usual.
Except of course that the EU will not agree to an indefinite extension. And revoking article 50 is also off the table.
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:33 AM   #2687
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's a logical way of looking at it, unfortunately that's not the way the British psyche and electorate seem to work

The worse the impact of Brexit and the more dire the outcome, the more likely it is that the "Blitz Spirit" will cut in and rather than losing support, the government will likely gain support and the British people, rather than rejecting a no-deal Brexit will embrace it.
It's called Stockholm complex, but there is a catch: Blitz was not voluntary, the alternative was to let Germany run wild in the continent and ruin the British Empire in the process. Blitz was bad yes, but everyone knew why they had to suffer through.

Brexit is an entirely needless self-inflicted British thing. Half the country is against it and most support comes from people who genuinely bought the lies of Brexit. I doubt it can be equalled to the Blitz. Sure, the British people will say they support the government in the polls due to harsh reality, but this is not about starting an armed uprising.

It is voting again for the people who promised you a free unicorn and got you in a situation that is "not worse than WW2".

Plus the Blitz wasn't that bad in comparison to what was going on elsewhere. Compared to what German towns and cities went through it was almost pleasant - and that was nothing compared to what happened in Russia or Japan. Brexit won't have that.

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Old 13th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #2688
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's a logical way of looking at it, unfortunately that's not the way the British psyche and electorate seem to work

The worse the impact of Brexit and the more dire the outcome, the more likely it is that the "Blitz Spirit" will cut in and rather than losing support, the government will likely gain support and the British people, rather than rejecting a no-deal Brexit will embrace it.
<sfx theme from the Dambusters>
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #2689
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Oh well. You used to laugh at Trump and feel humiliated by the Brexit shambes. Now you have the Brexit shambles and the equivalent of Trump. MBGA!
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:32 PM   #2690
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It's going to be Boris, isn't it?

They'll go through the motions, but I think the writing is already on the wall.

Boris Johnson tops first ballot in Tory leadership contest

It wasn't even close. 114 to 43 for his closest rival. The only question is, will the "wider Conservative Party" prefer Johnson or whoever else remains on the final ballot?
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:36 PM   #2691
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Any chance of a vote of no confidence succeeding, to force new elections?
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Old 13th June 2019, 10:58 PM   #2692
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Any chance of a vote of no confidence succeeding, to force new elections?
With a minority government there's always a chance for everything. In theory just two resignations from either the conservative party or DUP to the independent group could be enough, if all the others hold ranks against Boris. Ten resignations seal his fate, a new election is inevitable.

Will it happen? We don't know.

"They voted for Tony, and yet they now get Gordon, and a transition about as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero. It is a scandal.
"Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup, effected by the Brownites, and it is possible only because Tony had run out of road."

-- Boris Johnson, 2007

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Old 13th June 2019, 11:36 PM   #2693
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Any chance of a vote of no confidence succeeding, to force new elections?
If Labour cannot get the votes to try and prevent a no-deal Brexit, something that the majority of Conservative MPs are allegedly want to prevent as well (though I think recent events indicate the opposite), then I think their chances of getting a no-confidence motion through are very low indeed and IMO not even worth trying.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
With a minority government there's always a chance for everything. In theory just two resignations from either the conservative party or DUP to the independent group could be enough, if all the others hold ranks against Boris. Ten resignations seal his fate, a new election is inevitable.

Will it happen? We don't know.

"They voted for Tony, and yet they now get Gordon, and a transition about as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero. It is a scandal.
"Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup, effected by the Brownites, and it is possible only because Tony had run out of road."

-- Boris Johnson, 2007

McHrozni
That was then, this is now. In much the same way that Mitch McConnell used to think that appointing someone to SCOTUS in the final year of a presidency was undemocratic when a Democrat was in the White House but is perfectly fine with the idea if it were to fall to President Trump.

That said, I don't think Labour stand much chance of forming the next government in any case. A Conservative Party under Boris would just have received several months non-stop coverage of the leadership election. Given that a fair chunk of the electorate seem to vote for the party they have heard most of, most recently, regardless of policies I think Boris would be well advised to call a snap election if and when he becomes leader.

If he promises a hard Brexit, the Brexit Party supporters will return to the Conservative fold, he'll get a bunch of support for the Tories from people who recognise him from the telly and Labour will leak support to LibDems because of their pro-Brexit stance, enough to stop Labour getting elected, but not enough to get too many more LibDem MPs.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:09 AM   #2694
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's going to be Boris, isn't it?
Yes indeed. Two Bullingdon Boys this century. This decade even.

Mummy must be so proud.

I believe if you check back, I said he'd be next PM the day May told Parliament she was quitting.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:55 AM   #2695
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's going to be Boris, isn't it?

They'll go through the motions, but I think the writing is already on the wall.

Boris Johnson tops first ballot in Tory leadership contest

It wasn't even close. 114 to 43 for his closest rival. The only question is, will the "wider Conservative Party" prefer Johnson or whoever else remains on the final ballot?
Except that 114 is only 37% of the 313 Tory MPs. To win, Johnson needs to accrue another 43 votes from the 199 MPs who didn't see him as their first choice.

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Old 14th June 2019, 03:02 AM   #2696
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We must deliver Brexit
We must deliver Brexit

Suicide is painless.

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Old 14th June 2019, 03:18 AM   #2697
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except that 114 is only 37% of the 313 Tory MPs. To win, Johnson needs to accrue another 43 votes from the 199 MPs who didn't see him as their first choice.
Wrong. To get into the last two stage, when the party members get the final say, any candidate needs a third of the MP votes plus one. Boris has already surpassed that number and only has to avoid losing votes in the remaining MP ballots. He's much more likely to increase his vote, unless he says something really stupid (always a possibility with Boris).

All the opinion polls say that the party members will choose Boris over any other candidate, so again, it seems that the only person who could stop Boris becoming PM is Boris himself.
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:23 AM   #2698
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That was then, this is now. In much the same way that Mitch McConnell used to think that appointing someone to SCOTUS in the final year of a presidency was undemocratic when a Democrat was in the White House but is perfectly fine with the idea if it were to fall to President Trump.
True. Both should be talked about incessantly, I think.

Quote:
That said, I don't think Labour stand much chance of forming the next government in any case. A Conservative Party under Boris would just have received several months non-stop coverage of the leadership election. Given that a fair chunk of the electorate seem to vote for the party they have heard most of, most recently, regardless of policies I think Boris would be well advised to call a snap election if and when he becomes leader.
Just like Theresa May did you mean? That worked really well.

Quote:
If he promises a hard Brexit, the Brexit Party supporters will return to the Conservative fold, he'll get a bunch of support for the Tories from people who recognise him from the telly and Labour will leak support to LibDems because of their pro-Brexit stance, enough to stop Labour getting elected, but not enough to get too many more LibDem MPs.
Indeed, this is not out of the question. Splitting of Labour vote is indeed a real danger. On the other hand, losing two "easiest elections in history" in a row might get Corbyn out of leadership spot permanently, so the silver lining would be there.

It would still be a smelly, squishy turd, just like it was before. But it would have a strand of silver lining, so that's a plus.

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Old 14th June 2019, 03:26 AM   #2699
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong. To get into the last two stage, when the party members get the final say, any candidate needs a third of the MP votes plus one. Boris has already surpassed that number and only has to avoid losing votes in the remaining MP ballots. He's much more likely to increase his vote, unless he says something really stupid (always a possibility with Boris).
I agree with everything but the last adjective. He has to say something really vote repulsing, but "stupid" isn't the right adjective, he's been saying stupid things for three years straight.

Something that needs another qualifier, besides stupid.

Quote:
All the opinion polls say that the party members will choose Boris over any other candidate, so again, it seems that the only person who could stop Boris becoming PM is Boris himself.
Yeah, and by some margin. He has majority support in one recent poll.

It really puts democratic deficit in perspective, doesn't it?

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Old 14th June 2019, 04:59 AM   #2700
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Just like Theresa May did you mean? That worked really well.
Yes there is a risk, but Boris Johnson would have a number of things in his favour:
  • A newly united Conservative Party whose membership lurve him
  • A highly motivated 35%-40% of the electorate who want no-deal and see BoJo as the means to get it
  • A Labour Party which is in turmoil
  • A Remain movement which doesn't know which way to vote
  • A high degree of BoJo brand recognition

I'd call the election if I was in his shoes. I'd be confident of trouncing Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and the LibDems aren't likely to win enough seats. That's as long as it's clear that BoJo's pro no-deal stance has completely spiked the Brexit Party's guns.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Indeed, this is not out of the question. Splitting of Labour vote is indeed a real danger. On the other hand, losing two "easiest elections in history" in a row might get Corbyn out of leadership spot permanently, so the silver lining would be there.

It would still be a smelly, squishy turd, just like it was before. But it would have a strand of silver lining, so that's a plus.

McHrozni
Fair enough but that means that we'd have at least 4 more years of Conservative government at a time when the effects of a no-deal Brexit are being felt - a very small silver lining indeed.
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Old 14th June 2019, 07:54 AM   #2701
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
With a minority government there's always a chance for everything. In theory just two resignations from either the conservative party or DUP to the independent group could be enough, if all the others hold ranks against Boris. Ten resignations seal his fate, a new election is inevitable.
Mary Lou might develop a spine...

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except that 114 is only 37% of the 313 Tory MPs. To win, Johnson needs to accrue another 43 votes from the 199 MPs who didn't see him as their first choice.
No, the CP membership decide between the two highest scoring candidates.
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #2702
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No, the CP membership decide between the two highest scoring candidates.
OK, we're ******, then.
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:03 AM   #2703
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Besides, that nice Mr Trump said he'd see us right...
Yes, we'll be the 15 year old girl in the pagent changing room of Trumps deal.
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:24 PM   #2704
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10 minute Youtube video with one man's view of the 8 Labour MPs who voted against the Labour Party motion a few days ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TOeCKrTIs
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Old 15th June 2019, 09:44 PM   #2705
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Funny how old Marxists can morph into libertarians
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Old Yesterday, 01:39 AM   #2706
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<sfx theme from the Dambusters>
Yeah. It's ironic that the side which are in no doubt that they are the patriots, waving their metaphorical union jacks and humming the Dam Busters theme, are the ones happy to destroy the union to get their blue passports. They're almost eager to throw Northern Ireland under the bus, don't care that Scotland will split from the UK and have this movie-simple view that the EU is Germany and Germany are the baddies. They want to re-fight WW2 not to win it, but to live perpetually in a moment where Britain stood alone.
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Old Yesterday, 03:50 AM   #2707
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All our politicians seems hopelessly transfixed by the Brexit Party, willing to sacrifice anything if they think it will save their seat.
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Old Yesterday, 07:21 AM   #2708
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes there is a risk, but Boris Johnson would have a number of things in his favour:
  • A newly united Conservative Party whose membership lurve him
  • A highly motivated 35%-40% of the electorate who want no-deal and see BoJo as the means to get it
  • A Labour Party which is in turmoil
  • A Remain movement which doesn't know which way to vote
  • A high degree of BoJo brand recognition

I'd call the election if I was in his shoes. I'd be confident of trouncing Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and the LibDems aren't likely to win enough seats. That's as long as it's clear that BoJo's pro no-deal stance has completely spiked the Brexit Party's guns.



Fair enough but that means that we'd have at least 4 more years of Conservative government at a time when the effects of a no-deal Brexit are being felt - a very small silver lining indeed.
I agree. Johnson, twice elected as London mayor and successful brexit referendum campaigner, has electoral success behind him. I think he can galvanise the Tories who fear oblivion/Corbyn.

I do hope the Tories are the next government, so they can take the hit, especially with a no deal, as reality comes crashing down.
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Old Yesterday, 08:22 AM   #2709
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
All our politicians seems hopelessly transfixed by the Brexit Party, willing to sacrifice anything if they think it will save their seat.
Even though the European elections will IMO be a high water mark for that party, a low turnout and an opportunity to make a protest vote.
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #2710
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I agree. Johnson, twice elected as London mayor and successful brexit referendum campaigner, has electoral success behind him. I think he can galvanise the Tories who fear oblivion/Corbyn.

I do hope the Tories are the next government, so they can take the hit, especially with a no deal, as reality comes crashing down.
The problem is that reality will never come crashing down. No matter how bad it gets, the majority of English people will convince themselves that either it's the fault of horrible foreigners and/or it would have been even worse had we been in the EU.

The NHS effectively disappearing - inevitable market forces
A long and deep recession - the EU's fault, and worth the cost
Farmers going out of business due to zero tariff imports - good news for consumers
Businesses leaving the UK - traitors the lot of them

IMO there is literally no combination of outcomes, no matter how dire, that would lead them to think that they made a bad choice and that it was their fault.
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Old Yesterday, 08:50 AM   #2711
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong. To get into the last two stage, when the party members get the final say, any candidate needs a third of the MP votes plus one. Boris has already surpassed that number and only has to avoid losing votes in the remaining MP ballots. He's much more likely to increase his vote, unless he says something really stupid (always a possibility with Boris).

Since when has saying stupid things ever lost him votes? The only hole now is that he accidentally says something intelligent, thus alienating his natural support base.
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM   #2712
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Hilarious TV announcement of the C4 debate in The Grauniad. Seems the writer expected it to be rejected (was he/she drunk? ) but they printed it anyway:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg debate.jpg (42.0 KB, 24 views)
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM   #2713
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Hilarious TV announcement of the C4 debate in The Grauniad. Seems the writer expected it to be rejected (was he/she drunk? ) but they printed it anyway:
That can't be real...
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Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM   #2714
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Hilarious TV announcement of the C4 debate in The Grauniad. Seems the writer expected it to be rejected (was he/she drunk? ) but they printed it anyway:
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
That can't be real...
Well the author seems to be standing by it:

https://twitter.com/AliCatterall/sta...15921526620160

He seems to have been asked to take his original tweet down, from the comments to that.

FB_IMG_1560675272472.jpg
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Old Yesterday, 10:14 PM   #2715
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes there is a risk, but Boris Johnson would have a number of things in his favour:
  • A newly united Conservative Party whose membership lurve him
  • A highly motivated 35%-40% of the electorate who want no-deal and see BoJo as the means to get it
  • A Labour Party which is in turmoil
  • A Remain movement which doesn't know which way to vote
  • A high degree of BoJo brand recognition

I'd call the election if I was in his shoes. I'd be confident of trouncing Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and the LibDems aren't likely to win enough seats. That's as long as it's clear that BoJo's pro no-deal stance has completely spiked the Brexit Party's guns.
Sounds a lot of what went through the mind (or equivalent) of Theresa May in 2017. But yeah, it could work all right this time, if Remain vote is split between Labour and LibDem and Brexit vote is united behind BJ.

Quote:
Fair enough but that means that we'd have at least 4 more years of Conservative government at a time when the effects of a no-deal Brexit are being felt - a very small silver lining indeed.
It's still watery, smelly feces all right. But with a silver lining.

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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM   #2716
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The problem is that reality will never come crashing down. No matter how bad it gets, the majority of English people will convince themselves that either it's the fault of horrible foreigners and/or it would have been even worse had we been in the EU.

The NHS effectively disappearing - inevitable market forces
A long and deep recession - the EU's fault, and worth the cost
Farmers going out of business due to zero tariff imports - good news for consumers
Businesses leaving the UK - traitors the lot of them

IMO there is literally no combination of outcomes, no matter how dire, that would lead them to think that they made a bad choice and that it was their fault.
I'm sure there is a sizable minority of Englishmen who really do have those opinions. It is somewhere in the 20-40% of the electorate, but not more. They were deluded by the promises of the Brexit campaign and have since identified themselves with Brexit - if there is something wrong with Brexit, there is something wrong with them, so of course they will support Brexit, come what may, and claim any and all faults of Brexit are faults of other actors.

It's an emotional argument and reasoning won't work against them. On the upside, I think the people who genuinely can't be convinced of the flaws of their ways are on the low end of the spectrum, perhaps just 15-20% of the electorate. The others can be drawn away at any point with a steady diet of reality. This is based on my personal observations of such issues for the lower boundry of support for emotional arguments of this nature.

The same goes for any such argument - Brexit, Trump, vaccines, 9/11 twoofers, Moon hoax, Flat Eartherism ... all these and other stuff we love to hate in these parts of the internet have a maximum reach of some 15-20% of the public, those who can't be rescued from their dellusions no matter what you do. This point is reached by few, but Brexit and Trump were prolific enough to get there and beyond. Getting below the 15-20% treshold is nigh-on impossible, but reaching it is achievable. Painful perhaps, but achievable.

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Last edited by McHrozni; Yesterday at 10:48 PM.
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Old Today, 05:22 AM   #2717
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Just had a four-page A4 leaflet from the EFDD (the grouping the Brexit Party belongs to) shoved through the door.

It strawmanned a series of Remain arguments and reassured us that a no-deal Brexit would be just fine - without giving any specifics as to why.

If only I had a parrot cage I'd have found a use for it.
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Old Today, 05:58 AM   #2718
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Just had a four-page A4 leaflet from the EFDD (the grouping the Brexit Party belongs to) shoved through the door.

It strawmanned a series of Remain arguments and reassured us that a no-deal Brexit would be just fine - without giving any specifics as to why.

If only I had a parrot cage I'd have found a use for it.
Can you give us a picture? My Norwegian blue parrot is under the weather and needs some extra stuffing, I think this would be perfect. Plus I'd like to see how their propaganda looks like for obscene reasons.

Thanks in advance

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