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Old 14th August 2019, 02:06 PM   #1
Myriad
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Hate is the new sex.

Every once in a while, polite society decides to take some commonplace aspect of human existence, blame it for all the world's evils, and attempt to eradicate it, with peculiar but predictable results.

In Victorian times, it was sex. There was still plenty of sex going on everywhere, but everyone was expected to pretend that (1) there wasn't, except (2) there obviously was, but it didn't involve them, and (3) if it did involve them, it was only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as matrimony or gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs. Being caught involved in sex (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as involving sex) outside said limits was grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continued to engage in their own predilections barely missing a beat, but those who only aspired to the upper classes and were clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges had to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, morality leagues and the like.) They could and did reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of irredeemable fornicators too vulgar to even know which fork to use.

In present times, it's hate. There's still plenty of hate going on everywhere, but everyone is expected to pretend that (1) there isn't, except (2) there obviously is, but it doesn't involve them, and (3) if it does involve them, it is only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as hating nazis or pedophiles, or only hating haters. Being caught hating (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as expressing hate) is grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continue to act hatefully without missing a beat, but those who only aspire to the upper classes and are clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges have to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, corporate conduct policies, and the like.) They can and do reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of haters, racists, nazis, and other deplorables too vulgar to even know which pronoun to use.

Of course, this is just a neutral observation that doesn't involve me, because I don't hate anyone. Just like my ancestors in Victorian times never had sex, not even once.

(The words above are my own, but I didn't originate the analogy. It came from a posting last year on the Ecosophia blog.)
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Old 14th August 2019, 02:43 PM   #2
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This too shall pass. When we once again reconcile with hate another inseparable human quality will become the greatest evil. Maybe ambition or greed.

Roll with the waves, it will pass.
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Old 14th August 2019, 02:48 PM   #3
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I hate hate.
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Old 14th August 2019, 02:51 PM   #4
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To be more precise, hate is the new sin.

Itís prudent to be suspicious of an ideology that criminalizes human emotion.
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Old 14th August 2019, 04:21 PM   #5
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Thing is there are harmless kinds of hate and dangerous kinds of hate.
I hate onions, and the films of Zack Snyder, for instance....
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Old 14th August 2019, 04:50 PM   #6
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Does that mean I won't get hated either? Well shoot
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:03 PM   #7
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Oh I definitely harbour hate. Clear and bright. And I don't care who knows it.

I hate cancer in all its forms. More recently it has taken too many of my family and close friends. It encroaches on society and instills fear. It brings despair to so many. It is also the prime breeding ground for quacks and woos of all types including the religious, pushing expensive but in totally ridiculous and ineffective quick-fixes. Cancer can go **** itself.

I hate those who prey on others for their own benefit alone. The list of such people is endless, but there are some in political life around the world whom I would not shed a tear if a bullet ripped out of the night and took them. Not that I would do that - I'm hopeless with guns.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Itís prudent to be suspicious of an ideology that criminalizes human emotion.
Who has been jailed for feelings, per se?
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:14 PM   #9
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My wife has pretty much convinced me of this.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:01 PM   #10
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This is why we have the 2nd Amendment. No longer to protect us against the government, but from haters with pitchforks and nooses.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:08 PM   #11
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Some of the people I hate, I once loved.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Thing is there are harmless kinds of hate and dangerous kinds of hate.
I hate onions, and the films of Zack Snyder, for instance....
Which of the two is the dangerous one?
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Every once in a while, polite society decides to take some commonplace aspect of human existence, blame it for all the world's evils, and attempt to eradicate it, with peculiar but predictable results.

In Victorian times, it was sex. There was still plenty of sex going on everywhere, but everyone was expected to pretend that (1) there wasn't, except (2) there obviously was, but it didn't involve them, and (3) if it did involve them, it was only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as matrimony or gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs. Being caught involved in sex (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as involving sex) outside said limits was grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continued to engage in their own predilections barely missing a beat, but those who only aspired to the upper classes and were clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges had to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, morality leagues and the like.) They could and did reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of irredeemable fornicators too vulgar to even know which fork to use.

In present times, it's hate. There's still plenty of hate going on everywhere, but everyone is expected to pretend that (1) there isn't, except (2) there obviously is, but it doesn't involve them, and (3) if it does involve them, it is only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as hating nazis or pedophiles, or only hating haters. Being caught hating (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as expressing hate) is grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continue to act hatefully without missing a beat, but those who only aspire to the upper classes and are clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges have to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, corporate conduct policies, and the like.) They can and do reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of haters, racists, nazis, and other deplorables too vulgar to even know which pronoun to use.

Of course, this is just a neutral observation that doesn't involve me, because I don't hate anyone. Just like my ancestors in Victorian times never had sex, not even once.

(The words above are my own, but I didn't originate the analogy. It came from a posting last year on the Ecosophia blog.)
That's so deep.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:19 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
They can and do reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of haters, racists, nazis, and other deplorables too vulgar to even know which pronoun to use.
Who does this?

Maybe you shouldn't be quite so ready to believe the claims of the right-wingers.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:23 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Every once in a while, polite society decides to take some commonplace aspect of human existence, blame it for all the world's evils, and attempt to eradicate it, with peculiar but predictable results.

In Victorian times, it was sex. There was still plenty of sex going on everywhere, but everyone was expected to pretend that (1) there wasn't, except (2) there obviously was, but it didn't involve them, and (3) if it did involve them, it was only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as matrimony or gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs. Being caught involved in sex (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as involving sex) outside said limits was grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continued to engage in their own predilections barely missing a beat, but those who only aspired to the upper classes and were clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges had to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, morality leagues and the like.) They could and did reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of irredeemable fornicators too vulgar to even know which fork to use.

In present times, it's hate. There's still plenty of hate going on everywhere, but everyone is expected to pretend that (1) there isn't, except (2) there obviously is, but it doesn't involve them, and (3) if it does involve them, it is only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as hating nazis or pedophiles, or only hating haters. Being caught hating (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as expressing hate) is grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continue to act hatefully without missing a beat, but those who only aspire to the upper classes and are clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges have to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, corporate conduct policies, and the like.) They can and do reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of haters, racists, nazis, and other deplorables too vulgar to even know which pronoun to use.

Of course, this is just a neutral observation that doesn't involve me, because I don't hate anyone. Just like my ancestors in Victorian times never had sex, not even once.

(The words above are my own, but I didn't originate the analogy. It came from a posting last year on the Ecosophia blog.)
My first reaction: what's the 'hate' equivalent of this chair?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
My first reaction: what's the 'hate' equivalent of this chair?
Twitter.

Dave
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:43 AM   #17
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Here is the thing.

Say Person A voices opposition to Nazism (which seems to me quite a reasonable thing to do).

Now say Person B concludes that Person A, by voicing opposition to Nazism, is attacking the working classes.

Then clearly it is Person B who is accusing the working classes of being largely Nazis, not Person A.
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Last edited by Robin; 16th August 2019 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:54 AM   #18
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Come to that, is there any evidence that the depiction of Victorian mores in the OP is in any way accurate?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:59 AM   #19
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//Skimming the OP//

Absolutely I agree hate sex is the best.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Oh I definitely harbour hate. Clear and bright. And I don't care who knows it.

I hate cancer in all its forms. More recently it has taken too many of my family and close friends. It encroaches on society and instills fear. It brings despair to so many. It is also the prime breeding ground for quacks and woos of all types including the religious, pushing expensive but in totally ridiculous and ineffective quick-fixes. Cancer can go **** itself.

I hate those who prey on others for their own benefit alone. The list of such people is endless, but there are some in political life around the world whom I would not shed a tear if a bullet ripped out of the night and took them. Not that I would do that - I'm hopeless with guns.
But 'hate' as in the term 'hate group' is not referring to the normal human emotion of hate.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Skimming the OP//

Absolutely I agree hate sex is the best.
Disdain sex is even better because with the weaker emotional involvement you're more free to concentrate on physical sensation. Also it lets you feel superiority which you don't get as much with hatred, as hatred implies equality.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:30 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
(snip) such as matrimony or gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs.
I don't think having sex in gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs was within "socially sanctioned limits".

Quote:
Being caught hating (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as expressing hate) is grounds for blackmail or public disgrace.
Any examples of this happening? It would help with knowing what heck you are talking about.

The obvious difference between hate and sex is that sex is (so far) necessary for the perpetuation of the species, and seems to bring pleasure to many people. If only hate was that productive.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't think having sex in gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs was within "socially sanctioned limits".

Any examples of this happening? It would help with knowing what heck you are talking about.

The obvious difference between hate and sex is that sex is (so far) necessary for the perpetuation of the species, and seems to bring pleasure to many people. If only hate was that productive.
I think hate does bring pleasure to some people, at least. Emotions causing (or caused by) chemicals in the brain, endorphins, etc. Personally I find hate exhausting. I dislike thinking about the things and people I hate, it wears me out.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:36 AM   #24
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As far as I know the only group who are against the normal human emotion of hate are the Neo-Stoics.

But I don't think they would condemn anyone for it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't think having sex in gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs was within "socially sanctioned limits".

Socially sanctioned in those cases didn't mean openly acknowledged or approved of. It meant not subject to earnest efforts to expose them or publicly censure or humiliate the people involved. A respectable (upper-class) person was not one who refrained from extramarital affairs, but one who properly went through the motions of maintaining plausible deniability.

Quote:
Any examples of this happening? It would help with knowing what heck you are talking about.

Of course I don't know any examples. Knowing (let alone citing) examples would be interpreted by many (especially those with an axe to grind) as unconscionable approval of any hate the examples were purported to expose. Which is why you must feign not knowing what I'm talking about, like a respectable Victorian lady offered dirty pictures. Of course none of us here know of any dirty pictures, nor even have any idea what such pictures might depict.

Imagine, though, hypothetically, that there were certain ideologies and political stances that were objectively hateful to specific classifications of people. Now imagine someone publicly caught being rude or hostile to, or simply disagreeing politically with, some individual in one of those groups, and immediately being publicly portrayed as an ideological hater of that group. And as a result, being subject to public vilification, death threats, or action against their employer intended to cause them to lose their jobs or ruin their careers. That would be an example.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:20 PM   #26
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I have tried both. I prefer the sex.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Socially sanctioned in those cases didn't mean openly acknowledged or approved of. It meant not subject to earnest efforts to expose them or publicly censure or humiliate the people involved. A respectable (upper-class) person was not one who refrained from extramarital affairs, but one who properly went through the motions of maintaining plausible deniability.




Of course I don't know any examples. Knowing (let alone citing) examples would be interpreted by many (especially those with an axe to grind) as unconscionable approval of any hate the examples were purported to expose. Which is why you must feign not knowing what I'm talking about, like a respectable Victorian lady offered dirty pictures. Of course none of us here know of any dirty pictures, nor even have any idea what such pictures might depict.

Imagine, though, hypothetically, that there were certain ideologies and political stances that were objectively hateful to specific classifications of people. Now imagine someone publicly caught being rude or hostile to, or simply disagreeing politically with, some individual in one of those groups, and immediately being publicly portrayed as an ideological hater of that group. And as a result, being subject to public vilification, death threats, or action against their employer intended to cause them to lose their jobs or ruin their careers. That would be an example.

Restart the thread but this time say what you actually are trying to say.
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Restart the thread but this time say what you actually are trying to say.

I'm pretty sure I said what I actually wanted to say pretty well in the OP, and that you're completely capable of comprehending it.

That you've chosen instead to peer through the keyhole for any delicious glimpse of illicit hatred you can pretend to have garnered, tells me that the analogy I'm making holds up well. Of course, such response was inevitable. If one lived in Victorian times and pointed out, "you know, maybe our obsession with avoiding sex (or hypocritically pretending to do so) has been taken to counterproductive extremes," what response could one expect other than the accusation of being a pervert frustrated by the temperate expectations of decent society? In short, a personal attack intended to silence discussion and signal someone else's virtue.

An argument could certainly be made that the benefits of such zealousness (e.g. reduction of unwanted pregnancies and STDs; protection of people victimized by hate movements) are worth the lives unjustly ruined in the campaign. The problem in such cases is what happens when the pendulum inevitably swings the other way. A sexual revolution is kind of fun to live through, despite the social problems encountered at the opposite extreme. A hate revolution, not so much.
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Old 19th August 2019, 09:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It meant not subject to earnest efforts to expose them or publicly censure or humiliate the people involved.
Trying to have sex in a Gentlemen's Club was a pretty good way of getting expelled from the club and very likely arrested, imprisoned, possibly executed. The term "Gentlemen's Club" did not mean what it often means now (a brothel) but rather a club for gentlemen, no girls allowed. A place for drinking coffee or brandy, smoking cigars (sometimes a cigar is just a cigar), deep philosophical discussions on how white males are obviously superior to all the rest of Creation (with a possible exception to males of tribes of Noble Savages) and sometimes boorish sexual jokes. But no sex! First rule of Gentlemen's Club is: no buggering in the library!

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Which is why you must feign not knowing what I'm talking about,
I must feign not knowing what you are talking about, because you are speaking in riddles. Even if were to break my pretty little head over your riddles and come to some conclusion about what you discussing, then you can always claim I was merely misinterpreting what you meant. It rarely hurts to speak clearly, but if it does do not bother to speak at all.

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like a respectable Victorian lady offered dirty pictures. Of course none of us here know of any dirty pictures, nor even have any idea what such pictures might depict.
If you know of any dirty pictures, show me, so I can confront the maid for improperly dusting them.

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Imagine, though, hypothetically, that there were certain ideologies and political stances that were objectively hateful to specific classifications of people. Now imagine someone publicly caught being rude or hostile to, or simply disagreeing politically with, some individual in one of those groups, and immediately being publicly portrayed as an ideological hater of that group. And as a result, being subject to public vilification, death threats, or action against their employer intended to cause them to lose their jobs or ruin their careers. That would be an example.
That is indeed an example. I didn't mean to imply that the example had to very specific, though a specific example would be nice. I can think of a few instances where something similar happened. Obviously death threats are unacceptable and public vilification subject to libel law; their employer should not be allowed to fire someone unless they would not be able to do their work in good faith (radical notion, I know. You may have thought I was a respectable Victorian lady, but I may have done scandalous things like marching with a red flag).

I don't know of any examples though where the subject in such an occurence did not deserve harsh criticism for their opinion. Even if they were not an "ideological hater of that group" they did tend to be denagrating or causing deliberately causing unnecessary offense to that group.
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Old 19th August 2019, 12:27 PM   #30
Elagabalus
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I suggest a new thread title. "If we lived in Victorian Times, hate would be the new sex, but we don't, so - Hate is the New Black!".
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Old 19th August 2019, 01:52 PM   #31
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which of the two is the dangerous one?
Neither. Two examples of non dangerous hate.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:41 PM   #32
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Every once in a while, polite society decides to take some commonplace aspect of human existence, blame it for all the world's evils, and attempt to eradicate it, with peculiar but predictable results.

In Victorian times, it was sex. There was still plenty of sex going on everywhere, but everyone was expected to pretend that (1) there wasn't, except (2) there obviously was, but it didn't involve them, and (3) if it did involve them, it was only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as matrimony or gentlemen's clubs or discreet affairs. Being caught involved in sex (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as involving sex) outside said limits was grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continued to engage in their own predilections barely missing a beat, but those who only aspired to the upper classes and were clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges had to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, morality leagues and the like.) They could and did reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of irredeemable fornicators too vulgar to even know which fork to use.

In present times, it's hate. There's still plenty of hate going on everywhere, but everyone is expected to pretend that (1) there isn't, except (2) there obviously is, but it doesn't involve them, and (3) if it does involve them, it is only of the mildest sort and taking place within safe socially sanctioned limits, such as hating nazis or pedophiles, or only hating haters. Being caught hating (or even an ambiguous situation that could be construed as expressing hate) is grounds for blackmail or public disgrace. Of course, the fashionable upper classes continue to act hatefully without missing a beat, but those who only aspire to the upper classes and are clinging to their threatened middle-class privileges have to be very careful to remain absolutely pure themselves to prevent their competitive colleagues from gaining advantage over them by snitching. (Hence, corporate conduct policies, and the like.) They can and do reinforce that status by joining in the condemnation of the working class and underclasses as being largely composed of haters, racists, nazis, and other deplorables too vulgar to even know which pronoun to use.

Of course, this is just a neutral observation that doesn't involve me, because I don't hate anyone. Just like my ancestors in Victorian times never had sex, not even once.
Reminds me of paragraph 25 of Industrial Society and Its Future, especially the note at the end:
Originally Posted by Kaczynski
During the Victorian period many oversocialized people suffered from serious psychological problems as a result of repressing or trying to repress their sexual feelings. Freud apparently based his theories on people of this type. Today the focus of socialization has shifted from sex to aggression.
But I agree with other posters that you need to be more clear what you're talking about. Sounds like you're talking about that trendy liberal idpol thing, but then why not just say what you have to say? Death to IdPol!
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