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Tags Iowa politics , racism charges , racism issues , republicans , Steve King , white nationalism , white nationalists

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Old 19th August 2019, 03:38 PM   #441
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of resident "Conservatives" now celebrates rape.
Just incredible.
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
BTW that quote was swiped by the screen writers of "Conan The Barbarian" from a statement supposedly made by Genghis KHan, though most historians consider it mythical.
In fact, I am beginning to wonder if we don't have a Troll at work here.
You're only beginning to wonder now?
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:42 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Thanks. But I still have no idea what he meant in the first post. If only that meme wasn't so darned funny, perhaps he could've explained himself.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:53 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks. But I still have no idea what he meant in the first post. If only that meme wasn't so darned funny, perhaps he could've explained himself.
The meme was the explanation. I don't believe you didn't understand the first post.

What part did you not understand?

The part where squeeg liked something?

The part where one should like their own work?

The part where it would be weird if squeeg didn't like the thing he liked?

The part where stitching those three things together into a conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader?
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Old 19th August 2019, 04:41 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This might possibly have been the last straw. According to Reuters, Steve King held a town hall in Grundy Center, Iowa today and this is what it looked like:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECMeaASXUAEJUNP.jpg
The sad thing is that half the audience was a reporter, and the other half was a Democrat supporter who went to challenge him on policies.

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I AGREE
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:20 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The sad thing is that half the audience was a reporter, and the other half was a Democrat supporter who went to challenge him on policies.

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I AGREE
Truly pathetic for King. You think a few people would show up out of idle curiosity.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:32 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Truly pathetic for King. You think a few people would show up out of idle curiosity.
Trump will probably tweet that it's fake news and King's town hall was packed to capacity.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:59 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The meme was the explanation. I don't believe you didn't understand the first post.

What part did you not understand?

The part where squeeg liked something?

The part where one should like their own work?

The part where it would be weird if squeeg didn't like the thing he liked?

The part where stitching those three things together into a conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader?
Ah, I see. You mean that Squeegee created the narrative he said he liked.

That was fairly opaque to me. Perhaps I'm slow. But obviously, Squeegee's narrative was referring to Tanabear's post about historic tyrannies and one fictional barbarian. It didn't come out of nowhere. If you think his summary was inapt, perhaps you should've said why.

You could write clearly and convey your objections explicitly, you know, rather than insisting we go back and try to suss your meaning.

ETA: And no, the meme was not an explanation in any sense I can see. But, you know, I could be slow again.
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Old 19th August 2019, 06:15 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Ah, I see. You mean that Squeegee created the narrative he said he liked.

That was fairly opaque to me. Perhaps I'm slow. But obviously, Squeegee's narrative was referring to Tanabear's post about historic tyrannies and one fictional barbarian. It didn't come out of nowhere. If you think his summary was inapt, perhaps you should've said why.

You could write clearly and convey your objections explicitly, you know, rather than insisting we go back and try to suss your meaning.
I do that quite a bit, too. I get about the same results either way, though, so I'm not committed to the practice. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something a little longer and clearer. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something more... Laconic. Since the membership here doesn't really offer me any real benefit to choosing one over the other, I don't see why I shouldn't just follow my mood.
Quote:
ETA: And no, the meme was not an explanation in any sense I can see. But, you know, I could be slow again.
I mean, it did take you two tries to figure out what I meant. I had to repeat it for you, but you could have gotten the same effect by re reading the post, which turned out to be clear enough when you looked at it again.

Anyway, I'm feeling generous, so here's your closure: I deployed the meme to signal my disdain for your pose of not understanding my meaning.

I hope this helps.

Have a nice day!
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Old 19th August 2019, 06:18 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I do that quite a bit, too. I get about the same results either way, though, so I'm not committed to the practice. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something a little longer and clearer. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something more... Laconic. Since the membership here doesn't really offer me any real benefit to choosing one over the other, I don't see why I shouldn't just follow my mood.


I mean, it did take you two tries to figure out what I meant. I had to repeat it for you, but you could have gotten the same effect by re reading the post, which turned out to be clear enough when you looked at it again.

Anyway, I'm feeling generous, so here's your closure: I deployed the meme to signal my disdain for your pose of not understanding my meaning.

I hope this helps.

Have a nice day!
Right. I was posing. Because, ha ha, it got your goat. Ha ha.

You are an odd duck.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:03 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's making ponderingturtle's shtik harder to distinguish from what they proclaim.
Those are real quotes.

https://www.ranker.com/list/the-8-mo...ts/molly-mahan
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:05 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump will probably tweet that it's fake news and King's town hall was packed to capacity.
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:16 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
Indeed, that's what I was meaning.

You really have to work hard to come up with an outrageous interpretation of fairly mainstream Republican statements.
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Old 20th August 2019, 05:58 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of resident "Conservatives" now celebrates rape.
Just incredible.
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
BTW that quote was swiped by the screen writers of "Conan The Barbarian" from a statement supposedly made by Genghis KHan, though most historians consider it mythical.
In fact, I am beginning to wonder if we don't have a Troll at work here.
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
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Old 20th August 2019, 06:05 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
You know, for a long time, I just thought it was odd when I read your posts and thought, "This guy is just like Conan!" I guess I was catching the vibe somehow. It just comes out in your writing.
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Old 20th August 2019, 06:20 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
I guess we should be grateful for our ancestors, who worked the land that has served as the solid foundation for modern developed countries to emerge from. Meanwhile, in Mongolia, Conan's descendants live in tents without access to basic sanitation and squalid conditions.
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Old 20th August 2019, 06:51 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I guess we should be grateful for our ancestors, who worked the land that has served as the solid foundation for modern developed countries to emerge from. Meanwhile, in Mongolia, Conan's descendants live in tents without access to basic sanitation and squalid conditions.
Uh, I think (most of?) Conan's descendants live in Cimmeria. According to some nerds on the internet, Cimmeria likely stands in for Ireland or Wales.

I can't tell you anything about the state of sanitation in Ireland or Wales. For what it's worth, Inner Mongolia wasn't squalid, but I don't know about Mongolia proper.
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Old 20th August 2019, 07:32 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
Does Trump need a reason to lie?
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Old 20th August 2019, 09:54 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Uh, I think (most of?) Conan's descendants live in Cimmeria. According to some nerds on the internet, Cimmeria likely stands in for Ireland or Wales.

I can't tell you anything about the state of sanitation in Ireland or Wales. For what it's worth, Inner Mongolia wasn't squalid, but I don't know about Mongolia proper.
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.

Last edited by ArchSas; 20th August 2019 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 03:33 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Does Trump need a reason to lie?
Yes, or rather he needs a reason to speak and lying is then inevitable. Other than the fake news media there is no on to attack here and nothing to gain and not a way to steal the spotlight so why get up off the couch?
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:20 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.
Thanks for the schooling on Howard's work. Out of curiosity, and pardon the derail of an otherwise important discussion on the superiority of barbarians over farmers, is the comic book character more faithful to Howard's character?
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:47 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.
To the extent the history is accurate, it's besides the point. This barbaric history is not a sensible justification, at least so far as the sane (and vaguely sane) are concerned.


Quote:
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
Let's hear it for rape and pillage!

Back to the OP ... Yes, there are people who care to defend Steve King.
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:58 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Back to the OP ... Yes, there are people who care to defend Steve King.
We almost need a new term though.

At a certain point even words/concepts like "apologetics" doesn't apply to the level of "I'm not gonna defend Steve King... I'm just saying.."

I propose "Defendogetics."
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Old 21st August 2019, 03:39 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
But the farmers always win in the end. Nomadic hunter gatherers always end up getting absorbed by communites based on Agriculture or getting wiped out entirely. I give you the Mongols in China as an example of the first...Kubla Khan was more Chinese then the Chinese..and the Sioux Indians as an example of the second.
But you are just indulging in Macho fantasies from the safety of a computer, I doubt you can ever ride a horse, frankly.
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Old 21st August 2019, 03:43 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for the schooling on Howard's work. Out of curiosity, and pardon the derail of an otherwise important discussion on the superiority of barbarians over farmers, is the comic book character more faithful to Howard's character?
That depends on who was writing the comic book at the time.
Some were very faithful to Howard's writing;the original run of Conan in Marvel comics back in the 70's altenated between original stories and straight up adaptations of specific Howard stories; some of the later runs got pretty far from Howard's ideas.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:54 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Thus spoke Steve King: What if we went back through all the family trees and just pulled out anyone who was a product of rape or incest? Would there be any population of the world left if we did that? Considering all the wars and all the rapes and pillages that happened throughout all these different nations, I know that I can't say that I was not a part of a product of that.

He's not wrong.

Conan the Barbarian(Robert E. Howard) is a better guide to understanding real history than all the fake history you learn in school and college today.

What's best In life?
To Crush your enemies,
to see them driven before you,
and to hear the lamentations of their women!

The Aryans, the Huns, the Mongols, the Scythians, the Turks, the Comanches all practiced what is best in life on a grand scale.

Even in the legendary history of Rome, one of the founding stories is the Rape of the Sabine women.

Regarding incest or consanguineous marriages, it still practiced across much of the world from North Africa to India. This is why "nation-building" is oftentimes so difficult in these countries. A much vilified person on these forums, Steve Sailer, even wrote about this in the run-up to the Iraq War in an article entitled, Cousin Marriage Conundrum. This article was published by Steve Pinker in The Best Science and Nature writing of 2004.

"In Iraq, as in much of the region, nearly half of all married couples are first or second cousins. A 1986 study of 4,500 married hospital patients and staff in Baghdad found that 46 percent were wed to a first or second cousin, while a smaller 1989 survey found 53 percent were 'consanguineously' married."

So kudos to Steve King for bringing back real history.
And if you're a Christian, the story that underlies your belief begins with military occupation, oppression and crucifixion. Why stop with incest and rape? We're the products of a history of conquest, murder, slavery and genocide, too.

Some of us, of course, have that odd idea that history need not be repeated. Silly liberal fantasy.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:50 AM   #466
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BTW it's been a while since it's been the core issue surrounding this dickcheese but is the GOP's standard line of apologetics on Steve King still some variation on they just can't kick him out of the party because... I have no idea, I guess apparently the largest and oldest political party in America has less control over their IP then a mid-rate Youtube channel?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 08:28 AM   #467
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I don't know that the discussion of King's comments are really addressing his point. He wasn't saying that rape is an okay way to procreate.

Here's how I regard his comments. I haven't looked at them in detail, so I could be off here.

Most or all of us are ultimately the product of rape somewhere in our lineage. If abortion had been an option for the rape victim, most or all of us would therefore not exist. At least one of our ancestors would have been aborted.

On the one hand, I think that a rape exception is inconsistent with the most common pro-life arguments. Most politicians accept that inconsistency due to political expediency. Most pro-life voters want that exception even though it cannot be squared with the notion that abortion is wrong because a fetus has a right to life.

On the other hand, King's argument is just ****. Yes, perhaps if abortion in rape cases were an option in the distant past, I wouldn't be alive today. So what? Others would be alive. Surely, rape pregnancies always accounted for a small percentage of births, so the human race would go on, but without a person of my particular genetic makeup[1]. My birth is the result of a long string of events and had any one of those events gone differently, I wouldn't be here, but so the heck what? Am I supposed to think that I was lucky I dodged the bullet and I should make sure abortion is illegal so that others can do the same?

I'm not offended by his claim that most of us are ultimately the product of rape. I don't know if it's true, but it's not obviously implausible to me. It's just that this claim is totally irrelevant to whether or not there ought to be a rape exception. It is the product of an addled mind.

[1] Which would make the world a bleak and cold place, a land without laughter, of course.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 08:36 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know that the discussion of King's comments are really addressing his point. He wasn't saying that rape is an okay way to procreate.

Here's how I regard his comments. I haven't looked at them in detail, so I could be off here.

Most or all of us are ultimately the product of rape somewhere in our lineage. If abortion had been an option for the rape victim, most or all of us would therefore not exist. At least one of our ancestors would have been aborted.

On the one hand, I think that a rape exception is inconsistent with the most common pro-life arguments. Most politicians accept that inconsistency due to political expediency. Most pro-life voters want that exception even though it cannot be squared with the notion that abortion is wrong because a fetus has a right to life.
This is pretty much my take on it, also.

I see King's statements as him trying to come up with some way to resolve the conundrum. I don't think it has any really good resolution, and I'm not surprised that his attempt is fumbling and unsuccessful.

Like you and Meadmaker, I don't really think King needs defending on this one. His detractors are mostly just making stuff up (good old days of rape, etc.). Defending King isn't really going to put a stop to that, so why bother?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:25 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not offended by his claim that most of us are ultimately the product of rape. I don't know if it's true, but it's not obviously implausible to me. It's just that this claim is totally irrelevant to whether or not there ought to be a rape exception. It is the product of an addled mind.
I'm offended that others don't see it as the product of an addled mind.

Also, I thought it was GOP policy that you couldn't get pregnant from rape, the body just shuts that down. Maybe I need to revisit my GOP biology texts on that.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:51 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
I'm going to object to this, because Steve King's statement isn't true in any meaningful sense of the word. He hasn't spoken the truth about a subject. He has simply made a statement that is true in a very limited sense, but is utterly meaningless.

His statement wasn't absolutely clear, but I took it it mean something like "every one of us has at least one ancestor that was the product of rape or incest". That isn't verifiable, but it seems fairly likely, so it is in some sense true. However, he didn't even actually say that. The quote was more like "If you took out everyone from our family tree that was the result of rape or incest, there would be no one left". Now, is that a true statement?

Well, it is, sort of, but it suggests that somehow the human race wouldn't exist if it weren't for rape and incest. Suppose we could go back in time and at every point in history where a rape was about to occur that resulted in impregnation, we intervened and somehow prevented impregnation. When we returned to the present day, would there be no humans? Of course not. It is true that the specific humans (i.e. us) wouldn't be here, but there would still be humans. It would not be "no one left". It would be different people than the ones who are here now.

As someone noted, the same would be true if you didn't fight World War I. Not one person who is alive today would be alive if we had stopped the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand*, and yet there would still be people.

So what was the meaning behind King's statement? Was there anything about it that was true in any meaningful sense? Could we take some message from his statement and, offended "sensibilities" aside, can we say that he said anything worth saying?

I think not. I think what he was getting at, peeling back one more layer of that onion, was that the children of rape or incest can make meaningful contributions to the world, and so we shouldn't abort them. Of course, it is true that they can make meaningful contributions to the world, and no one on left or right would deny that. That's not really important. I'm not going to get into justifying a pro or an anti abortion stance right now, but the point is that the potential but unknowable future isn't really a good justification for setting policy today, and the fact that there were ancestors in our past with certain characteristics matters even less when we consider whether abortion ought to be legal today.

*Ferdinand might be a bit too recent. After all, a few people are still alive who were already born in 1914. If we go back another 100 years so, though, we're in the clear. Despite various time travelling works of fiction, it would take very little change to have quite a drastic effect on the future. Consider how different the world would be if one sperm cell got to an egg instead of another, and how easy it is to affect that, and you'll realize that any change at all would ripple rapidly through the population.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:51 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm going to object to this, because Steve King's statement isn't true in any meaningful sense of the word. He hasn't spoken the truth about a subject. He has simply made a statement that is true in a very limited sense, but is utterly meaningless.

His statement wasn't absolutely clear, but I took it it mean something like "every one of us has at least one ancestor that was the product of rape or incest". That isn't verifiable, but it seems fairly likely, so it is in some sense true. However, he didn't even actually say that. The quote was more like "If you took out everyone from our family tree that was the result of rape or incest, there would be no one left". Now, is that a true statement?

Well, it is, sort of, but it suggests that somehow the human race wouldn't exist if it weren't for rape and incest. Suppose we could go back in time and at every point in history where a rape was about to occur that resulted in impregnation, we intervened and somehow prevented impregnation. When we returned to the present day, would there be no humans? Of course not. It is true that the specific humans (i.e. us) wouldn't be here, but there would still be humans. It would not be "no one left". It would be different people than the ones who are here now.

As someone noted, the same would be true if you didn't fight World War I. Not one person who is alive today would be alive if we had stopped the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand*, and yet there would still be people.

So what was the meaning behind King's statement? Was there anything about it that was true in any meaningful sense? Could we take some message from his statement and, offended "sensibilities" aside, can we say that he said anything worth saying?

I think not. I think what he was getting at, peeling back one more layer of that onion, was that the children of rape or incest can make meaningful contributions to the world, and so we shouldn't abort them. Of course, it is true that they can make meaningful contributions to the world, and no one on left or right would deny that. That's not really important. I'm not going to get into justifying a pro or an anti abortion stance right now, but the point is that the potential but unknowable future isn't really a good justification for setting policy today, and the fact that there were ancestors in our past with certain characteristics matters even less when we consider whether abortion ought to be legal today.

*Ferdinand might be a bit too recent. After all, a few people are still alive who were already born in 1914. If we go back another 100 years so, though, we're in the clear. Despite various time travelling works of fiction, it would take very little change to have quite a drastic effect on the future. Consider how different the world would be if one sperm cell got to an egg instead of another, and how easy it is to affect that, and you'll realize that any change at all would ripple rapidly through the population.
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:56 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Did you quote the wrong post?

I don't see a defense of King in the post you quoted, quite the opposite, actually.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:57 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Yes, when people keep making bigoted statements, you don't need to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, every time they say something bigoted.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:04 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Did you quote the wrong post?

I don't see a defense of King in the post you quoted, quite the opposite, actually.
Thank you.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:32 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Thank you.
If it makes you feel better, it made me re-read your post more carefully. So, there's that.

I almost highlighted all the negative things you said about King, but frankly I thought your work stood well enough on its own.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:56 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Meadmaker's post was nothing like a defense of King.

There's no shame in saying a horrible bigot was probably right about one small claim but drawing stupid conclusions from it.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:57 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.
That's right.

After Conan was freed from his captors he decided to forgive his enemies, not crush them, lay down his sword and shield and live life as an ascetic. He then devoted his life to the practice of transcendental meditation while living on a diet of raw cabbage and carrots in a small mountain hut. The movie ends with Conan discovering inner peace.

Or not....I think the movie actually ends by Conan crushing his enemies. At the end the narrator says: "Many wars and feuds did Conan fight. Honor and fear were heaped upon his name and, in time, he became a king by his own hand. And this story shall also be told."

So it sounds like Conan continued to pursue what is best in life.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But the farmers always win in the end. Nomadic hunter gatherers always end up getting absorbed by communites based on Agriculture or getting wiped out entirely. I give you the Mongols in China as an example of the first...Kubla Khan was more Chinese then the Chinese..and the Sioux Indians as an example of the second.
Yes, in the long run farmers win out over the hunter-gatherers, not because they are better fighters but simply because there are more of them. But farming is not what is best in life.

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