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Old 6th August 2019, 10:03 AM   #41
plague311
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wouldn't say it is needlessly pedantic to be careful with this kind of language. There are already very significant legal distinctions between automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Given that some form of Assault Weapon Ban is often proposed as a solution to these shootings, parsing out what exactly an assault weapon is tends to be important. Pointing out that mass shooters do not use "machine guns" or "assault rifles" is not pointless hair splitting.

There is often very little political will for sweeping bans of most firearms in the US, often the policy conversation comes down to which specific features will be made illegal. If this is the case, definitions become very important.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes. The distinction between fully automatic and semiautomatic weapons is very significant, both practically and legally.
Not to a thread that isn't about gun control, but whatever.

The difference between the guns doesn't interest me at all. It isn't meaningful to me since pretty much all mass shootings are done with an AR-15 or some variation of that gun. I don't shoot, own, or deal with guns ever. They could all be gone and it would not change my life in any way, shape or form. None.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Better question, "Do the corrections made make any difference at all to the subject at hand?"

Seriously, does the distinction between auto, semi-auto, etc. really make a difference?
I wouldn't know. I don't consider that a factor when trying to reach truthful statements.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'll come back to the question of freedom of association, and relationships between private individuals, in a bit. If it's still relevant.

The government should not punish people for exercising their rights. Infringing on a right to punish the exercise of another right is an infringement of the first right as well. The government should not do this. If the speech is free from government interference, then it must be truly free from government interference. As soon as the government starts punishing you in any way, by any means, the speech is no longer free. "You can speak, but if you do we'll take away your other freedoms" means exactly that the speech is no longer free.

It would be a different proposition if we were as free to reject the government's authority as we are to reject the company of a private individual we don't care for. But we're not. Which is why we put these rules in place, restricting the government's standing to infringe on our freedoms.

You're imposing conditions on the exercise of a right. You're explicitly withholding other rights, if you disapprove of the way I exercise this right. That's not freedom, not of speech, not of anything else.
Eh ... what's this have to do with guns, again?
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Not to a thread that isn't about gun control, but whatever.

The difference between the guns doesn't interest me at all. It isn't meaningful to me since pretty much all mass shootings are done with an AR-15 or some variation of that gun. I don't shoot, own, or deal with guns ever. They could all be gone and it would not change my life in any way, shape or form. None.
Edit: This is all horribly off topic, sorry folks. I will refrain from derailing this thread again. Please do not quote or respond to this, as I will not reply in this thread.

The devil is in the details. The political goal of banning the bad guns has existed in the past. The AWB was law for ten years, yet plenty of barely modified rifles that were compliant with the law were sold during this time. Various states have their own rifle restrictions, and cottage industries have sprung up to provide products that meet the letter, if not the spirit, of these laws.

When it comes down to banning assault weapons, "I know it when I see it" doesn't really cut the mustard.

The nasty truth is, that while modern rifles like the AR-15 or AK variants are the preferred option for spree shooters, there are plenty of alternatives that are nearly as good that will serve the purpose well enough. Banning specific features just leads to modified AR-15 or AK designs that exclude those features (or use of another weapon that doesn't have such features). So long as gun ownership is generally legal and there is enough consumer demand, products will be invented to meet the barest minimum compliance with any such law.

The ultimate failing of most of these assault weapons ban is the irreconcilable desires of banning "bad guns" while not banning "good guns".
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The devil is in the details. The political goal of banning the bad guns has existed in the past. The AWB was law for ten years, yet plenty of barely modified rifles that were compliant with the law were sold during this time. Various states have their own rifle restrictions, and cottage industries have sprung up to provide products that meet the letter, if not the spirit, of these laws.

When it comes down to banning assault weapons, "I know it when I see it" doesn't really cut the mustard.

The nasty truth is, that while modern rifles like the AR-15 or AK variants are the preferred option for spree shooters, there are plenty of alternatives that are nearly as good that will serve the purpose well enough. Banning specific features just leads to modified AR-15 or AK designs that exclude those features (or use of another weapon that doesn't have such features). So long as gun ownership is generally legal and there is enough consumer demand, products will be invented to meet the barest minimum compliance with any such law.

The ultimate failing of most of these assault weapons ban is the irreconcilable desires of banning "bad guns" while not banning "good guns".
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Eh ... what's this have to do with guns, again?
It was suggested that demonstrably violent-minded crazy people shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. This was the refutation.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:45 AM   #47
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The automatic vs semi-automatic discussion is nothing more than an attempt to distract from the OP's point which is "In National Gotcha, you see, the El Paso creep is a Trump Supporter, quoting Trump and acting out his political fantasies, so the Dayton shooter, being a lefty, must prove, well, something." The OP specifically stated that this thread is NOT about whether the weapon used was an assault weapon or not. And yet, here we are with the majority of the discussion about exactly that. What kind of weapon used is NOT the issue here.

ETA: People who should not be allowed to own an automatic or semi-automatic weapon for any reason other than they are illegal to own by any civilian should not be allowed to own ANY gun.

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Old 6th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #48
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Surely the fact that the 2nd Amendment contains the words "well-regulated" implies that not everybody has the right to own a gun?

People who use a controlled substance are prohibited from owning a gun. Surely if it's not a violation of rights to prohibit someone who legally smokes weed from owning a gun, then it's not a violation of rights to prohibit someone who has repeatedly made credible death threats against people from owning a gun?
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It was suggested that demonstrably violent-minded crazy people shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. This was the refutation.
It was well written, at least.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:00 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It was suggested that demonstrably violent-minded crazy people shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. This was the refutation.
Ah, I see. So buy a gun and let the gun do the talkin'?
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:03 AM   #51
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Any weapon that can kill 9 people in 30 seconds shoots too fast for civilian use.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Any weapon that can kill 9 people in 30 seconds shoots too fast for civilian use.
I wish I had saved it, but I saw a tweet the other day that pointed out that the 2nd Amendment was ratified at a time when guns were very different. A shooter in 2017 killed more people in the matter of a few minutes (40/50-odd) than died in an entire military battle contemporary with the ratification of the 2nd amendment.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely the fact that the 2nd Amendment contains the words "well-regulated" implies that not everybody has the right to own a gun?
Nope, that is one of those meaningless parts of the constitution. Like how state governments should be republics. It was challenged and the supreme court ruled that you can't challenge your own state for being undemocratic.

Kind of funny there is a lot of pointless and meaningless things in the constitution.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:13 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Eh ... what's this have to do with guns, again?
Ask TM. I'm addressing an argument he made about linking gun rights to speech rights, and infringing on one as a punishment for exercising the other.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ask TM. I'm addressing an argument he made about linking gun rights to speech rights, and infringing on one as a punishment for exercising the other.
As honest a characterization of what was said as any of your posts are.
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Old 6th August 2019, 11:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As honest a characterization of what was said as any of your posts are.
Feel free to address the flaws in the arguments I actually addressed to you, any time.
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Old 6th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #57
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And it is pretty easy to modify a semi auto rifle to be full auto.You just need a few hand tools, you don't have to be a skilled gunsmith to do it.
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Old 6th August 2019, 12:53 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's your mistake. With this cluster **** you should be breaking out the cheap booze, because you're going to need a lot of it.
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Any weapon that can kill 9 people in 30 seconds shoots too fast for civilian use.
I agree 100%. He not only killed 9 people, but wounded 27 others within that 30 seconds.

But, but but....my FREEEEEEDOMS!
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:08 PM   #60
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Just to make sure I understand; both shooters are terrible monsters, but one shooter is better than the other. Have I got that right?

If so, which one?
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Better question, "Do the corrections made make any difference at all to the subject at hand?"

Seriously, does the distinction between auto, semi-auto, etc. really make a difference?
Not really. Burst/Auto modes in an assault rifle is there primarily for providing supressing fire. It doesn’t make them into a machine gun. Suppressing fire isn’t really the issue in these shooting so the distention between an M16 and an AR15 with a large magazine is minimal in cases like this IMO. What makes an assault rifle dangerous is that it can be fires accurately and often for sustained periods of time in semi-automatic mode.

Machine gun vs assault rifle would be a more meaningful difference in terms of the weapon, but both are bad news in shootings like this and are not really suitable for normal civilian uses like hunting. You could throw in a high capacity semi-automatic shotgun into that category as well.
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:19 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just to make sure I understand; both shooters are terrible monsters, but one shooter is better than the other. Have I got that right?

If so, which one?
I think the idea is more like one shooter was likely directly motivated by the inflammatory rhetoric of conservatives.

Now I do care about the effect that rhetoric has on the population and particularly among these deranged individuals, but I think the conversation has been steered away from the root causes of these mass murders, or at least the typical profile of the perpetrators, before all of this political coloring.
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:58 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just to make sure I understand; both shooters are terrible monsters, but one shooter is better than the other. Have I got that right?

If so, which one?
Did someone actually say that? I know I've pointed out that one was motivated by his political view while it appears the other is a nutcase with a long history of violence that should have been caught.

If we're actually going to rate them, though. One does have twice the body count than the other.

Both aren't just monsters, they're absolute ****.
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just to make sure I understand; both shooters are terrible monsters, but one shooter is better than the other. Have I got that right?
No, you have it wrong. Both are equally terrible monsters, but for different reasons.

One is a terrible monster for unfairly twisting the words of our president into a message of hate and violence. The other is a Leftist, which is evil by definition. Both are traitors of course, either for giving the Left ammunition to attack conservatives, or for simply being on the left.

I do have to wonder though, have the political positions of these shooters been accurately assessed? Does the Leftist shooter support all liberal policies, or is he actually more libertarian than liberal, ie. not quite as evil as they are? And is the other one so far right that he is actually (like fascists and communists) also on the left?

Asking whether one shooter is better than the other is the wrong question anyway. What you should be asking is which is worse for the country. Clearly a 'rightist' is worse, because he undermines the president. The leftist shooter however has nullified this, and so has done good politically. Both are equally terrible people, but only one has been bad for republicans the country.

Having shooters on both sides provides a balance. All the terrible things done in the name of Trump are absolved by the terrible things that aren't, so liberals now have nothing to complain about (not that they ever really did). Just as there are fine people on both sides, so there are terrible people on both sides. But left extremism cancels out right extremism, so all the people on Trump's side are actually fine people.
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
From what I understand the shooter rode downtown with his sister and the friend that got shot, but not killed. I believe she was the first one shot as well, or at least among the first.


WTF?
He had his humongous loaded gun on him on a ride into town with his sister and friend?
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I know this isn't really your point, but the weapon used was not an assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" has a fairly specific meaning. It's a military term for a class of fully automatic weapons. All fully automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US and exceedingly difficult for most people to get their hands on legally. The M16 fully automatic rifle is an assault rifle. The AR15 semiautomatic rifle is not an assault rifle. It is sometimes classified as an assault weapon by various pieces of legislation. Definitions under such laws are not consistent, and often depend upon cosmetic features.
Oh. Well that's OK then. That means he couldn't have killed and injured all those people in such a short time.
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:44 PM   #67
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I love the distinction without a difference debates. Gee, it'll be okay, Chet. Just run it under the tap for a minute. You're not fully automatically dead, just semi-automatically dead.
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:06 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely the fact that the 2nd Amendment contains the words "well-regulated" implies that not everybody has the right to own a gun?

People who use a controlled substance are prohibited from owning a gun. Surely if it's not a violation of rights to prohibit someone who legally smokes weed from owning a gun, then it's not a violation of rights to prohibit someone who has repeatedly made credible death threats against people from owning a gun?
It seems membership of the militia would be well regulated. A reading of the 2nd seems clear that they can do a lot of things, just not infringe on possessing arms,which probably prevents nearly any regulation
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:09 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I know this isn't really your point, but the weapon used was not an assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" has a fairly specific meaning. It's a military term for a class of fully automatic weapons. All fully automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US and exceedingly difficult for most people to get their hands on legally. The M16 fully automatic rifle is an assault rifle. The AR15 semiautomatic rifle is not an assault rifle. It is sometimes classified as an assault weapon by various pieces of legislation. Definitions under such laws are not consistent, and often depend upon cosmetic features.
/whispers/ Zig - your irrelevant pedanticles are showing. /whispers/
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes. The distinction between fully automatic and semiautomatic weapons is very significant, both practically and legally.
/whispers/ Zig - not in this case /whispers/
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:44 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
WTF?
He had his humongous loaded gun on him on a ride into town with his sister and friend?
He left sister and her friend for a while and came back shooting. I don't know if he drove home to fetch the weapon and armor.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:06 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
He left sister and her friend for a while and came back shooting. I don't know if he drove home to fetch the weapon and armor.
Or he just had it in the trunk of the car, or in the back under a cover, or in case or they just didn't look in the back.

Lots of ways to have the guns and such in the car without anyone noticing.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:25 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The El Paso shooter favored things like universal health care. But if we talk about the shooter's politics, I'm asking about what political positions we can factor in.
The left doesn't want to be reminded that he supported UBI, health-care, and the environment. He could've donated money, brought a first aide kit, and planted a tree, but you can bet the media would only focus on murdering Hispanics.
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Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:31 PM   #74
Norman Alexander
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So the Dayton shooter apparently had some "leftist" ideas and FaceBook likes. While the Texas shooter was probably a Trumpist anti-immigration screecher. *YAWN* So ******* what.

Doesn't matter if any of these wound-too-tight morons have a hard-on for Jesus or Minnie Mouse, or watched too many violent video games or none at all, or were mentally ill or just quiet ordinary people. They let their frustrations spill over and there was a gun involved...and that's when it all went bad.

There's plenty of right-wing, left-wing, screaming, quiet, video-gamer, sane nutcases elsewhere in the world. No guns, no killing.

Pretty simple.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:33 PM   #75
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Any weapon that can kill 9 people in 30 seconds shoots too fast for civilian use.
And that's not counting the additional wounded.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:37 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think the idea is more like one shooter was likely directly motivated by the inflammatory rhetoric [racism] of conservatives.
ftfy

Quote:
Now I do care about the effect that rhetoric [racism] has on the population and particularly among these deranged individuals, but I think the conversation has been steered away from the root causes of these mass murders, or at least the typical profile of the perpetrators, before all of this political coloring.
There are a number of different types of shooters, you can't put them all in one bag. But they do have one thing in common, access to very lethal fire power.


Rhetoric and racism are not synonymous.

Dictionary.com
Quote:
Rhetoric
(in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or verse, including the figures of speech.
the study of the effective use of language.
the ability to use language effectively.
the art of prose in general as opposed to verse.
the art of making persuasive speeches; oratory.
I don't believe you can put racist white supremacism in the category of 'just talk'.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 6th August 2019 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:43 PM   #77
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
WTF?
He had his humongous loaded gun on him on a ride into town with his sister and friend?
Since the friend is not dead, if he isn't seriously brain damaged we may eventually find out. Could be the armor was in the trunk.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:52 PM   #78
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So the Dayton shooter apparently had some "leftist" ideas and FaceBook likes. While the Texas shooter was probably a Trumpist anti-immigration screecher. *YAWN* So ******* what.

Doesn't matter if any of these wound-too-tight morons have a hard-on for Jesus or Minnie Mouse, or watched too many violent video games or none at all, or were mentally ill or just quiet ordinary people. They let their frustrations spill over and there was a gun involved...and that's when it all went bad.

There's plenty of right-wing, left-wing, screaming, quiet, video-gamer, sane nutcases elsewhere in the world. No guns, no killing.

Pretty simple.
The Texas shooter also supported some left leaning ideas.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:01 PM   #79
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Texas shooter also supported some left leaning ideas.
You didn't read my post. Did you.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:04 PM   #80
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You didn't read my post. Did you.
Yes. And you omitted a fact I find interesting, so I inserted it.
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