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Old 8th August 2019, 03:00 PM   #1
Vixen
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UK to attract scientists from overseas 'like magnets'

Currently scientists from the EU are free to work and live in the UK. After Brexit, they will be under the same rules and regulations as non-EU migrants who want to work in the UK. Non-EU 'highly skilled' workers are restricted to just 2,000 per annum have to comply with rigorously tough standards and then pay a typical £8,000 for the privilege.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has suddenly had a thought, wait a minute, once we've sent the EU lot packing, help, there'll be a deficit of scientists.

To resolve this matter, he has instructed the Home Office to scrap the 2,000 fast lane visa and to do away with almost any restrictions. Even their dependents will be welcome!



Quote:
EU researchers account for half of the total UK scientific workforce of 211,000. Currently, they don't need visas to work in British labs.

Those from outside the UK currently need to go through a rigorous process supervised by the Home Office. The process is time consuming, taking up to 100 days and costly, with a bill of about £8,000.

After Brexit, new applicants from EU countries will have to go through the same procedure, prompting fears of a large scientific skills shortage.

'No limits'
In response, Mr Johnson has asked the Home Office and Beis to develop a system that has no limit on numbers allowed to work in the UK under the tier one exceptional talent visas. He also wants them to expand the pool of UK research institutes and universities able to endorse candidates.

In addition, he wants officials to come up with criteria that confer automatic endorsement, subject to immigration checks, ensuring dependants are also able to work in the UK and remove the need to hold an offer of employment before arriving.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49282689


Question is, would a highly skilled scientist want to work in the UK?
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Old 8th August 2019, 03:50 PM   #2
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Please tell me that the EU scientists will be grandfathered in. Other than that, yes, scientists will want to work in the UK. They already do otherwise there wouldn’t be systems in place to get them.
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Old 8th August 2019, 04:09 PM   #3
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************* scientists, how do they work?
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Old 8th August 2019, 04:33 PM   #4
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Especially from the USA....

The Trump administration is anti-science, it is overwhelmed with science deniers and Climate Change deniers. Any US scientists who tell the administration things that they don't want to hear, or that does not fit the latter's political agenda, are either ignored or fired.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...2-weeks-DANGER

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-or-be-fired/
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Old 8th August 2019, 04:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Question is, would a highly skilled scientist want to work in the UK?
Considering the UK has some of the most prestigious places of higher-learning and scientific research, the answer is generally yes. Of course one can question whether or not the "top scientists" would actually see any practical difference, since they already tend to be in high demand.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:44 PM   #6
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How much of the work that scientists currently do in n the UK receives EU funding?
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How much of the work that scientists currently do in n the UK receives EU funding?
Around 3%

https://royalsociety.org/topics-poli...mpare-with-uk/

The largest sources are:

- Industry 45%
- Government Departments 11%
- Research Councils 11%
- Higher Education Funding Councils 8%
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Question is, would a highly skilled scientist want to work in the UK?
Yes, but the question needs rephrasing, as follows:

"Would a highly skilled scientist prefer to work in the UK, as opposed to working in a different country?"

The answer to that hinges on post-Brexit reality. You won't get many cutting edge scientist if you're struggling with food shortages and nightly riots in the streets, I guarantee it. Someone should tell BJ most scientists are diamagnetic.

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Old 9th August 2019, 02:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Question is, would a highly skilled scientist want to work in the UK?
Well it might still be better than Syria, Saudi Arabia or Libya.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Please tell me that the EU scientists will be grandfathered in. Other than that, yes, scientists will want to work in the UK. They already do otherwise there wouldn’t be systems in place to get them.
Post-Brexit Britain will be a different place. Note the rise in homophobic, racism and xenophobia by emboldened rightists.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:39 PM   #10
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What if the scientists aren't like magnets?
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Old 10th August 2019, 12:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Especially from the USA....

The Trump administration is anti-science, it is overwhelmed with science deniers and Climate Change deniers. Any US scientists who tell the administration things that they don't want to hear, or that does not fit the latter's political agenda, are either ignored or fired.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...2-weeks-DANGER

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-or-be-fired/
Bluesjnrs Rule - thread about UK scientists Trumped!
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Old 10th August 2019, 02:10 AM   #12
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The problem is that the source of this claim is one Boris Johnson. His recent* track record on such predictions is not a great one. Given his recent form, why should anyone pay any attention to this one, even to bother to refute it?



* Recent: (adj) Say, about the last 30 years or so.
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Old 10th August 2019, 10:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Bluesjnrs Rule - thread about UK scientists Trumped!
A) It was my rule - Stolen like a Richie McCaw piece of brilliance in a tackle

B) Agree

Quite funny

But still think getting a bit silly in its occurrence
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Old 10th August 2019, 10:04 PM   #14
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I am tempted to start a thread about favourite knitting techniques and time how long it takes someone to blame Trump for less people knitting
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Old 11th August 2019, 02:28 AM   #15
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"Keep, ancient lands, your Johnnie Foreign RiffRaff!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your PhDs, your MBAs,
Your monied elite yearning to fox-hunt free,
The landed tycoons of your teeming shore.
Send these, the magnates, lucre-rolled to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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Old 11th August 2019, 02:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A) It was my rule - Stolen like a Richie McCaw piece of brilliance in a tackle

B) Agree

Quite funny

But still think getting a bit silly in its occurrence
A) Well his great-great-grandfather was from Scotland so it's in the genes.

B) Indeed.

Yes, it's borderline mental.
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Old 11th August 2019, 02:50 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am tempted to start a thread about favourite knitting techniques and time how long it takes someone to blame Trump for less people knitting
OK.
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Old 11th August 2019, 05:18 AM   #18
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Isn't it a sad indictment of the UK education system that we don't have enough high-grade scientists of our own. This is the nation that brought the world all kinds of inventions? A very distant ancestor of mine, a Dr Maxwell from Dundee (graduate of Edinburgh) pioneered the cure for yaws (=a form of early syphilis), now superseded by antibiotics.
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Old 11th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #19
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I suspect that the UK does have enough science-educated folks.

Research as a discipline is typically highly publicly funded (not exclusively) though, so to the extent that Brexit reduces the funding available to research in the UK (which I believe it does), this reduces the relative attraction of the UK to those who wish to do it.

But quite apart from this there is a quasi religious belief that selective skills-based immigration ("points systems") is a good thing, even among those who think that unskilled immigration simultaneously leads to lower wages, fewer jobs, benefit scrounging, no council accommodation or school places or hospital beds and so on.

In reality the UK needs more unskiĺled and skilled immigrants alike. Ideally a million a year sounds like a start to me. Voters disagree though.
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Old 11th August 2019, 09:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I suspect that the UK does have enough science-educated folks.

Research as a discipline is typically highly publicly funded (not exclusively) though, so to the extent that Brexit reduces the funding available to research in the UK (which I believe it does), this reduces the relative attraction of the UK to those who wish to do it.

But quite apart from this there is a quasi religious belief that selective skills-based immigration ("points systems") is a good thing, even among those who think that unskilled immigration simultaneously leads to lower wages, fewer jobs, benefit scrounging, no council accommodation or school places or hospital beds and so on.

In reality the UK needs more unskiĺled and skilled immigrants alike. Ideally a million a year sounds like a start to me. Voters disagree though.
points based immigration systems lead to taxi drivers with PhDs.
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Old 11th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #21
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From twitter:

Quote:
It is & as a highly qualified lecturer, probably an above average tax payer. HMRC will miss the income tax revenues from scientists, engineers, teachers & bankers who are leaving. No wonder the universities struggle to find staff. Durham Uni is having problems now
Apparently, there are already 750K fewer EU tourists to the UK and the highly skilled EU's are leaving in droves. There is rumoured to be such a 'money wall' of international transfers of funds taking place, it is typically taking longer than usual to process them.

It's no wonder NY-born Boris is having to take desperate measures to entice and replace the highly-skilled, before it turns into a national disaster.

When one of the top universities (Durham) can't find tutors, the stable door looks to have been pushed shut (or trying to) after the horse has bolted.
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Old 11th August 2019, 10:56 AM   #22
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My experience based on my sabbatical leave in the UK was that a large percentage of the graduate student/post-doc researchers, etc. in molecular biology/biomedicine research at the top universities were from other EU countries, often on EU sponsored fellowships, grants. etc. Many more than 3%. I suspect that the very top universities tend to draw more of these EU researchers and EU grants than average, which may account for the difference between what I saw at Cambridge vs the Royal Society numbers (which are averages). There were also of course additional grad students/post-docs from China, India, Pakistan, and the Middle East.

BTW: university labs having significant numbers of grad students and post-docs, who are both in training and are simultaneously doing actual research (and paid for it), is fairly standard in many areas of science and in many countries. It is the same in the USA, although we get more people from outside the EU than in it. The grad students work toward a PhD or Masters while doing research that they will publish as part of their thesis, get their tuition paid for, and are provided with a "stipend" (currently around 35,000 to 45,000 US dollars a year), often from grants. The post-docs are also trained in the area of their research as well as performing it, and get paid usually over 55,000 US dollars a year. Sort of apprenticeships... In both cases this work in a more senior person's lab gets added to their c.v.s as experience, and the publication of their research adds to their reputation; both of which are the ways they are subsequently able to obtain labs or independent positions of their own.

I have no idea how the UK exit from the EU will actually impact this system, but it doesn't look good to my friends in UK academic bioscience/biomedicine science; they are very, very frightened. It certainly would be helpful if visa and work permit requirements for these EU scientists are minimized after the exit.

Last edited by Giordano; 11th August 2019 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 11th August 2019, 11:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Isn't it a sad indictment of the UK education system that we don't have enough high-grade scientists of our own. This is the nation that brought the world all kinds of inventions? A very distant ancestor of mine, a Dr Maxwell from Dundee (graduate of Edinburgh) pioneered the cure for yaws (=a form of early syphilis), now superseded by antibiotics.
Well, not that per se. It is not really that the UK doesn't have enough "high-grade" scientists in country but that science progresses best as an international venture, and that labs benefit from having top scientists visiting/working/sharing ideas from throughout the world. The UK is still considered one of the top countries for scientific research in many areas. Particularly biomedicine. But the attractiveness increases and decreases with the political climate and funding levels: when the government implements deep cuts in university and research funding, researchers look to other countries for their training and studies.

Last edited by Giordano; 11th August 2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 11th August 2019, 01:17 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When one of the top universities (Durham) can't find tutors, the stable door looks to have been pushed shut (or trying to) after the horse has bolted.
What problems is Durham having hiring teaching staff, exactly? Senior academic staff compensation in the UK is generally higher than elsewhere in the EU partly because it is competitively set by the unis in the UK and not as collectively bargained as elsewhere, and it gets bid up slightly higher and it is closer to the US arrangement even though tuition fees are capped.

But I don’t think that has much to to with the sudden apparent rush to import scientists.
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Old 11th August 2019, 01:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
points based immigration systems lead to taxi drivers with PhDs.
Yes

Immigrants—Your Country Needs Them
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:57 AM   #26
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Another question is whether will it be strictly “researchers" or will it be applied to STEM in general. It’s not unusual at all for technology companies to want to hire workers on visa’s because they are a lot cheaper. In the US some prominent companies (eg Microsoft, IBM, etc) have literally brought in workers on visa’s and have them trained by the people they will be replacing.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
points based immigration systems lead to taxi drivers with PhDs.
Of course so does adjunct pay, at least in the US.
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
points based immigration systems lead to taxi drivers with PhDs.
SO you think because you have a PHD you have some kind of right to be hired in your area of speciality?
PHDs are subject to ecomomic forces like everything else, and a lot of PHDs are simply not needed in their area of speciality by the economy.
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO you think because you have a PHD you have some kind of right to be hired in your area of speciality?
PHDs are subject to ecomomic forces like everything else, and a lot of PHDs are simply not needed in their area of speciality by the economy.
To be fair he was not making it personal. And people do have a perfectly reasonable hope to be hired in the area of their specialty/training whatever the field: plumbing, car repair, health care, law, etc. That was the goal behind their investment of their time, effort, and resources in the training. Of course this is influenced by the economy, but it is not elitist to suggest that it is unfortunate if economic forces make it impossible for an otherwise qualified individual to pursue their career hopes and dreams.

In my field of molecular biology/biomedicine there are currently a large number of truly excellent PhDs but a relatively small number of openings for them as researchers in academia and pharmacological companies. This waxes and wains significantly over time so it is not as if a student can make a logical economic decision as to job availability when they first commit to the field and to a PhD. Also in MHO the need of society for more of these researches is a lot greater than the great god of "economics" mandates (a god composed in this case largely of government grant award decisions and the profitability goals of private enterprise, which are often very short sighted). Just one example: no one is currently investing a lot of money on studies overcoming bacterial drug resistance. I can explain why the societal need is totally uncoupled from the economic pressures if you wish, but the outcome is that we are moving into a very scary future where dying of infectious disease will resemble the situation per 1940s.

Last edited by Giordano; 12th August 2019 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Needed to be more specific as to qualified individuals.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO you think because you have a PHD you have some kind of right to be hired in your area of speciality?
More that selective immigration is a policy with unintended economic consequences.

It is also ethically dodgy that "let's import clever scientists" even flies in the context of an anti immigration policy like brexit in the first place and indicates that brexit is more to keep less educated people out.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:22 PM   #31
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO you think because you have a PHD you have some kind of right to be hired in your area of speciality?
PHDs are subject to ecomomic forces like everything else, and a lot of PHDs are simply not needed in their area of speciality by the economy.
No, i think points based immigration systems are dumb.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:47 PM   #32
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Higher education points-based immigration systems are easy to manipulate. If there are easier openings for, say, vascular surgeons, almost nobody in the government immigration offices policing these applicants would be able to pick a highly-qualified vascular surgeon from a coal-miner with a fake degree certificate.

So they turn to the industry to vet the applicants. And thus there will be a bunch of "homeopathic hospitals" wanting "quantum vascular surgeons" and they have exactly the candidates to fill the jobs...who just happen to be their slack-arsed brothers-in-law, their cousins, and their cousin's cousins, all looking for a free passage in with no questions asked. And all "fully approved".

Sound very fake and dodgy? Well, that's what actually happens here.
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:19 PM   #33
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Higher education points-based immigration systems are easy to manipulate. If there are easier openings for, say, vascular surgeons, almost nobody in the government immigration offices policing these applicants would be able to pick a highly-qualified vascular surgeon from a coal-miner with a fake degree certificate.

So they turn to the industry to vet the applicants. And thus there will be a bunch of "homeopathic hospitals" wanting "quantum vascular surgeons" and they have exactly the candidates to fill the jobs...who just happen to be their slack-arsed brothers-in-law, their cousins, and their cousin's cousins, all looking for a free passage in with no questions asked. And all "fully approved".

Sound very fake and dodgy? Well, that's what actually happens here.
That sounds remarkably similar to to how the upper classes in England operate.

You need about £30K pa to send your kid to Eton and in return for the investment you expect another old Etonian to give him a job.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
points based immigration systems lead to taxi drivers with PhDs.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Taxi drivers with PhDs are a waste of talent sure, but intelligent and educated people (those who hold PhDs are usually but not always both) tend to enrich a society above and beyond their economic role. At the very least they will bust stereotypes and help their people assimilate, helping to push xenophobia back to the fringe where it belongs.

It's not the best approach to immigration by any means but it's not as bad as it sounds.

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Old 13th August 2019, 10:28 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Another question is whether will it be strictly “researchers" or will it be applied to STEM in general. It’s not unusual at all for technology companies to want to hire workers on visa’s because they are a lot cheaper. In the US some prominent companies (eg Microsoft, IBM, etc) have literally brought in workers on visa’s and have them trained by the people they will be replacing.
Ugh.

With policies like these it's no wonder scores of people oppose immigration based on principle.

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Old 13th August 2019, 10:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
intelligent and educated people (those who hold PhDs are usually but not always both) tend to enrich a society above and beyond their economic role.
Some may think it objectionable to allow and disallow immigration on the basis of what the government thinks your contribution to society might be. (I do)
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Some may think it objectionable to allow and disallow immigration on the basis of what the government thinks your contribution to society might be. (I do)
Really? Honest and true?

Suppose you have a convicted, confessed serial killer who escaped from prison in a country you have no extradiction treaty with who comes to your country and asks to be allowed to immigrate.

Do you take his prior criminal record into account or do you think it's objectional to allow and disallow immigration on the basis of what his contribution to society might be?

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Old 14th August 2019, 01:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That sounds remarkably similar to to how the upper classes in England operate.

You need about £30K pa to send your kid to Eton and in return for the investment you expect another old Etonian to give him a job.
At the moment it's over £42k p.a.

Quote:
£14,167 per half [i.e. term; there are three terms in a year]. Bursaries are awarded by the Bursaries Committee as soon as a boy has been offered a conditional place at the school, which is approximately 18 months prior to his joining the school. All bursaries are means-tested.
https://www.etoncollege.com/currentfees.aspx

Then there are the extras...

Quote:
School extras are billed in arrears and the level of charges varies depending on the activities a boy does while at Eton. Extras can vary greatly but are usually between £500-£1,000 per half. A full list of possible additional charges is sent to parents at the start of the academic year.

Last edited by The Don; 14th August 2019 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 14th August 2019, 04:09 AM   #39
Francesca R
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Suppose you [ . . . ]
You're funny.

I get what you want to happen yes. White dude with an MBA, few million in a Cayman account, formerly general partner of a private equity outfit and got minted via leveraged buy outs, you roll out the red carpet and say: "Welcome in!". But a black single mother with no qualifications who worked in a convenience store and is taking her son away from an abusive relationship: "Send her back!"
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Old 14th August 2019, 04:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
You're funny.

I get what you want to happen yes. White dude with an MBA, few million in a Cayman account, formerly general partner of a private equity outfit and got minted via leveraged buy outs, you roll out the red carpet and say: "Welcome in!". But a black single mother with no qualifications who worked in a convenience store and is taking her son away from an abusive relationship: "Send her back!"
I didn't read any mention of colour in his response to you. Why do you insist that he considered colour as part of the decision making process?
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