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Tags anti-Islam incidents , benjamin netanyahu , Ilhan Omar , Rashida Tlaib , US-Israel relations

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Old 18th August 2019, 06:11 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Leave Netanyahu out of it. Who are the fascists and fascists adjacent posting in the thread? As I said earlier, I get it, he doesn't really mean it, it's just a lazy way of saying "I disagree with you but cannot marshal any good evidence and arguments, so instead I'll call you a fascist and win the argument that way."
I already answered this question, but it was coaxed over to AAH, so I'm sorry but you'll have to do without an answer.
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Old 18th August 2019, 06:30 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It wasn't IATS. Here's the post in question:



Leave Netanyahu out of it. Who are the fascists and fascists adjacent posting in the thread? As I said earlier, I get it, he doesn't really mean it, it's just a lazy way of saying "I disagree with you but cannot marshal any good evidence and arguments, so instead I'll call you a fascist and win the argument that way."
I knew it wasn't The Scum you were originally replying to. I didn't go back to determine who it was, so I left the poster unnamed.

I don't think that The Scum is calling you out for objecting to Uke's allegations of fascism. He's saying that you were out of line for calling Uke an anti-Semite. You still sticking with that charge?

For what it's worth, I agree that Uke shouldn't allege fascism so quickly. It takes the conversation from a rational discussion to one based purely on emotional appeal to the term "fascist", whether the term is apt or not. I won't comment on its aptness, since the term "fascism" is a bit vague to me, largely because it is overused.

Now, with that out of the way, did Uke indeed say anything to suggest he is anti-Semitic?

Just to refresh your memory, here is what you wrote.
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You should hang out with the skinheads; sounds like you have a lot in common when it comes to the Jews.
This isn't an objection to slurring posters as fascists. This is a claim that he is anti-Semitic because he called Bibi a fascist. That is the only interpretation I see.

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Old 18th August 2019, 08:43 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Leave Netanyahu out of it. Who are the fascists and fascists adjacent posting in the thread? As I said earlier, I get it, he doesn't really mean it, it's just a lazy way of saying "I disagree with you but cannot marshal any good evidence and arguments, so instead I'll call you a fascist and win the argument that way."
We’ve all lost count of the number of times Trump has hurled an insult.

Have you criticized him for that?

If not, based on the Brainster Standard, we can safely conclude that your criticism is insincere and has a more sinister, ulterior motive.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We’ve all lost count of the number of times Trump has hurled an insult.

Have you criticized him for that?

If not, based on the Brainster Standard, we can safely conclude that your criticism is insincere and has a more sinister, ulterior motive.
I get your point, but I think this is a stretch to call hypocrisy in this case. Here, Brainster was part of a conversation in which an insult was thrown, plausibly in his direction. We expect more motivation to respond in that case.

To be fair, the Muslim representatives have personal reason to complain about injustice to the Palestinians too, and less motivation to complain about North Korea, say.
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Old 18th August 2019, 09:26 AM   #125
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I find it curious that a lot of conservative voices are outraged at the idea of social media making content based curation choices, but don't seem to have a problem with a government banning critical speech.

When we talk about free speech being important, a government banning its critics is supposed to be the big boogeyman we're afraid of sliding down a slippery slope into. Yet when it actually happens, I don't see the outrage I'd expect from all the same voices.
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Old 18th August 2019, 09:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I find it curious that a lot of conservative voices are outraged at the idea of social media making content based curation choices, but don't seem to have a problem with a government banning critical speech.

When we talk about free speech being important, a government banning its critics is supposed to be the big boogeyman we're afraid of sliding down a slippery slope into. Yet when it actually happens, I don't see the outrage I'd expect from all the same voices.
The reason, of course, is to all the "freeze peach absolutists", it's not really about anyone being allowed to speak freely, but specifically about them being allowed to speak freely using whatever platform they like, private or otherwise. If someone else's speech is suppressed... well... maybe that's just because they are saying something bad.
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Old 18th August 2019, 10:31 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I knew it wasn't The Scum you were originally replying to. I didn't go back to determine who it was, so I left the poster unnamed.

I don't think that The Scum is calling you out for objecting to Uke's allegations of fascism. He's saying that you were out of line for calling Uke an anti-Semite. You still sticking with that charge?

For what it's worth, I agree that Uke shouldn't allege fascism so quickly. It takes the conversation from a rational discussion to one based purely on emotional appeal to the term "fascist", whether the term is apt or not. I won't comment on its aptness, since the term "fascism" is a bit vague to me, largely because it is overused.

Now, with that out of the way, did Uke indeed say anything to suggest he is anti-Semitic?

Just to refresh your memory, here is what you wrote.

This isn't an objection to slurring posters as fascists. This is a claim that he is anti-Semitic because he called Bibi a fascist. That is the only interpretation I see.
I interpret those who support BDS as supporting the destruction of Israel, whether intentionally or not. The right of return is a poison pill, particularly when combined with the one-state solution (which Tlaib, but not Omar, has endorsed). I note that this is not a terribly controversial belief--several other people have agreed in this thread, and very few naive persons have disagreed.

I would imagine that skinheads would support anything that resulted in the destruction of Israel, and the death of so many Jews.

Hence people who support BDS and skinheads have something in common. Not necessarily anti-semitism (although there is a LOT of anti-semitism in the BDS movement), but support for the eventual destruction of Israel.
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Old 18th August 2019, 10:35 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I interpret those who support BDS as supporting the destruction of Israel, whether intentionally or not. The right of return is a poison pill, particularly when combined with the one-state solution (which Tlaib, but not Omar, has endorsed). I note that this is not a terribly controversial belief--several other people have agreed in this thread, and very few naive persons have disagreed.

I would imagine that skinheads would support anything that resulted in the destruction of Israel, and the death of so many Jews.

Hence people who support BDS and skinheads have something in common. Not necessarily anti-semitism (although there is a LOT of anti-semitism in the BDS movement), but support for the eventual destruction of Israel.
Well, that's just plain dumb.

BDS only works to secure the rights of Palestinians to live as human beings. It pressures Israel to abide by UN resolutions. It does nothing else.
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Old 18th August 2019, 10:46 AM   #129
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Netanyahu no longer supports the two-state solution, so opposing it does not necessarily make a person anti-Semitic.

The current Israeli position (as described by Netanyahu himself in the link) is Apartheid under a different name. He clearly and explicitly rejects Palestinian statehood, which would be the end result of the Two-State solution.

There will be two states, or one state, but the current Israeli leadership rejects two states. All that is left now is to determine the nature of the one state that will be the end result of all of this.
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Old 18th August 2019, 12:12 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Netanyahu no longer supports the two-state solution, so opposing it does not necessarily make a person anti-Semitic.

The current Israeli position (as described by Netanyahu himself in the link) is Apartheid under a different name. He clearly and explicitly rejects Palestinian statehood, which would be the end result of the Two-State solution.

There will be two states, or one state, but the current Israeli leadership rejects two states. All that is left now is to determine the nature of the one state that will be the end result of all of this.
Amazing how you got all that out of this:

Quote:
My view of a potential agreement is that the Palestinians should be able to have all the powers to govern themselves but not have the powers to threaten us. The key power that must not be in their hands is the question of security. In the tiny area west of the Jordan River up to the Mediterranean - it's all about a width of about 50, 60 kilometers - where both Palestinians and Israelis live, Israel must retain the overriding security responsibility.

Otherwise we'll get what happened already in Lebanon and Gaza when we left and basically militant Islam came in under Hezbollah, subservient to Iran, or under Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, subservient to Iran. So if you have a state that has most of the sovereign powers of the state but not the power of security, is that a state or not a state? I don't know. You can argue about that.
The US took over responsibility for security for much of western Europe after WWII; are France and Germany not states?
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Old 18th August 2019, 01:42 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The US took over responsibility for security for much of western Europe after WWII; are France and Germany not states?
France and Germany are free to make their own decisions on such matters. Palestine is not.

France withdrew from NATO with no consequences to them. They have their own military to use as they see fit. Moreover, France and Germany are both functioning democracies, with the ability to ask us to leave. Palestine has some democracy and has made it very, very clear that Israel is not welcome to continue to expand settlements or base military forces in West Bank.

They (France and Germany) are not forced to allow tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans to live within their borders but not subject to their laws. They don't need to pass American checkpoints to travel from town to town. They operate their own ports, airports, and border security with no American interference.

Do you honestly think that the situation in Palestine is even remotely comparable to France and Germany?

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Old 18th August 2019, 01:56 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I interpret those who support BDS as supporting the destruction of Israel, whether intentionally or not. The right of return is a poison pill, particularly when combined with the one-state solution (which Tlaib, but not Omar, has endorsed). I note that this is not a terribly controversial belief--several other people have agreed in this thread, and very few naive persons have disagreed.

I would imagine that skinheads would support anything that resulted in the destruction of Israel, and the death of so many Jews.

Hence people who support BDS and skinheads have something in common. Not necessarily anti-semitism (although there is a LOT of anti-semitism in the BDS movement), but support for the eventual destruction of Israel.
I don't know whether Uke has said he supports BDS, but maybe so.

Your reasoning is a little bizarre. Let's take for granted that the right of return would literally destroy Israel. Surely, those who support BDS don't believe that it would destroy Israel and hence they may support the right of return without supporting Israel, in exactly the same way that a climate change denier might support acts which would increase the rate of global warming without supporting the warming of the planet.

So, sorry, not at all buying your argument.
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Old 18th August 2019, 02:14 PM   #133
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The Israel/Palestinian conflict is one of those things where your opinion of it pretty much dictated by what level you decide to view the conflict on.

- Zoom all the way out and... I don't care. The Western Banks and Gaza strip contested areas are less than 2,400 square miles of mountains and desert scrub land. In America we'd call that 1/5th of the state of Nevada, a place only good for gambling, prostitution, testing nuclear weapons, and hiding aliens. Get rid of "My God has a Bigger Dick Than Your God" and all the cultural baggage one step removed from that and they would be fighting over who had to live there, not the reverse.

- Zoom in a little further and you see, as I've noted before, America's foreign policy towards Israel being informed largely by an apocalyptic strain of right wing religious fervor.

- Zoom in a little more and you see one rather small primarily Jewish country surrounded by primarily Arabic Muslim countries and one of the rare democracies in an area still heavily populated by Monarchies and we're being told that all anyone wants is for them to give up some of their land to... Arabic Muslims which doesn't make any kind of sense.

- Zoom in a little further than that though and you see a very paranoid, very insular country that is, to be charitable, wound a little too tight, has a secret clandestine but open secret Nuclear Weapons program, and has sold out and even attacked its own allies on multiple occasions and seems to want to stay in the "Big Brother America protect us and finance us but don't dare have an opinion about how we do anything" in a classic case of "I want to be free and independent but not self sufficient" syndrome.

The whole situation from top to bottom, both of the primary participants in it, and our own primary motivation for being in it is toxic.
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:49 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know whether Uke has said he supports BDS, but maybe so.

Your reasoning is a little bizarre. Let's take for granted that the right of return would literally destroy Israel.
Done

Quote:
Surely, those who support BDS don't believe that it would destroy Israel
I am willing to grant you that some such fools exist. However, we can assume that say, Hamas, supports BDS in the hopes it will destroy Israel.

Quote:
and hence they may support the right of return without supporting Israel
? I think you can take it for granted that most of those supporting the right of return are not supporting Israel. You do understand what we are talking about here? Did you mean to write that they may support the right of return without supporting the destruction of Israel? That at least makes some sense.

Quote:
in exactly the same way that a climate change denier might support acts which would increase the rate of global warming without supporting the warming of the planet.
Because he is so stupid he doesn't realize it? Yes, that is pretty much what I am saying a lot of the BDS movement is made up of. Very apt comparison actually.

Quote:
So, sorry, not at all buying your argument.
Damn, and we seemed to be making progress.
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Old 18th August 2019, 06:05 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Done



I am willing to grant you that some such fools exist. However, we can assume that say, Hamas, supports BDS in the hopes it will destroy Israel.



? I think you can take it for granted that most of those supporting the right of return are not supporting Israel. You do understand what we are talking about here? Did you mean to write that they may support the right of return without supporting the destruction of Israel? That at least makes some sense.
My apology! I meant to write that they could support the right of return without supporting the destruction of Israel.

Sorry for that.

Quote:
Because he is so stupid he doesn't realize it? Yes, that is pretty much what I am saying a lot of the BDS movement is made up of. Very apt comparison actually.



Damn, and we seemed to be making progress.
Yes. Let's summarize.

(1) Not everyone who supports BDS supports the destruction of Israel.

(2) You said that BDS supporters (specifically Uke) have something in common with skinheads, namely "support for the eventual destruction of Israel".

So, it appears that they don't share that goal. Perhaps you should admit that you misspoke when you said Uke has a lot in common with skinheads.

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Old 18th August 2019, 06:29 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- Zoom in a little further than that though and you see a very paranoid, very insular country that is, to be charitable, wound a little too tight, has a secret clandestine but open secret Nuclear Weapons program, and has sold out and even attacked its own allies on multiple occasions and seems to want to stay in the "Big Brother America protect us and finance us but don't dare have an opinion about how we do anything" in a classic case of "I want to be free and independent but not self sufficient" syndrome.
Yeah, I don't get that whole paranoia thing with the Jews. It's not like anybody tried to exterminate them, well, other than those lots of times in the past. And it's not like anybody came close, other than that guy who had the funny mustache. And now with the Israelis, you'd almost think that they hadn't been given a beach on Club Med, and that they've been invaded a few times in the last 70 years or so. Total paranoia.
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Old 18th August 2019, 06:40 PM   #137
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Maybe I'm just desensitized to the argument that "we can't do that because it will result in our total destruction!"

We can't end prayer in school, it will destroy Christianity.

We can't let gays get hitched, it will destroy the institution of marriage.

We can't let the democrats win, they will destroy America.

We can't let brown people in, they will eventually wipe out all the white people.

In this issue specifically, it's kind of a double-edged sword. The continued existence of this institution literally requires subjugation and deprivation?

Is there any more damning thing that could ever be said of an institution than it absolutely requires such behavior to continue existing?

To be clear, I don't think it's a true statement. I accept that getting there would be a long, hard road and require both sides to show maturity that they have so far been unwilling or unable to demonstrate, but I don't consider it impossible (just really, really highly improbable).

Finally, there's a vast world of difference between advocating for a ideal outcome and advocating for a specific vehicle to achieve that outcome. Saying implementation X-Y-Z will destroy Israel doesn't mean the person who envisions implementation L-M-N-O-P-Q wants that outcome. A discussion about probabilities is certainly useful, but you won't get a rational and calm discussion about it when the opening premise is "you want us to be destroyed!"

The translation to my ears is something like "I'll lose something that I perceive as having value to me (for some examples given, it is nothing more than a vague feeling of smug superiority)."

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Old 18th August 2019, 06:42 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
My apology! I meant to write that they could support the right of return without supporting the destruction of Israel.

Sorry for that.



Yes. Let's summarize.

(1) Not everyone who supports BDS supports the destruction of Israel.

(2) You said that BDS supporters (specifically Uke) have something in common with skinheads, namely "support for the eventual destruction of Israel".

So, it appears that they don't share that goal. Perhaps you should admit that you misspoke when you said Uke has a lot in common with skinheads.
Let's slice it just that much thinner. Would you agree then that the thing he has in common with the skinheads is support for things that would lead (intentionally or not) to the destruction of Israel? Granting that the right of return would lead to the destruction of Israel, which, as you may recall is something that you granted in this side discussion?
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:10 PM   #139
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So the Right of Return for Palestinians would destroy Israel? It might. Just as the Law of Return for Jews effectively destroyed Palestine.
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:16 PM   #140
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If only the giant invisible sky wizard would clarify which group of pre-Bronze age illiterate goat herders he had promised this strip of desert scrub land to...
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:29 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If only the giant invisible sky wizard would clarify which group of pre-Bronze age illiterate goat herders he had promised this strip of desert scrub land to...
But, but, but.....it's in the BIBLE!
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:51 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's slice it just that much thinner. Would you agree then that the thing he has in common with the skinheads is support for things that would lead (intentionally or not) to the destruction of Israel? Granting that the right of return would lead to the destruction of Israel, which, as you may recall is something that you granted in this side discussion?
I granted that for the sake of argument, since it wasn't the point I wanted to raise.

But if you want to play this game then, yes, given that X would lead to the destruction of Israel and BDS wants X, then BDS support something (X) that would lead to the destruction of Israel.

Now, as far as whether or not right of return would lead to the destruction of Israel, I have no opinion. Seems unlikely to actually destroy Israel that way, but I don't know much about the subject and I'm not particularly interested in it.

I was just interested in your claim that Uke has a lot in common with skinheads, that being, apparently, that something Uke supports (?) would lead to something the skinheads want, although Uke may not think so. So he's just like a skinhead, ain't he? Uncanny!
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Old 18th August 2019, 09:00 PM   #143
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But I mean the linking of one thing to the destruction of another is the same argument that white nationalists use.

Why do you support the white nationalists?

I mean we could play this game all day.

One thing is for sure. The usefulness of such a statement towards furthering a civil discussion about a topic is about nil. Just a classic thought-interrupting device.

Wouldn't it be more straightforward to say "here are a number of ill consequences you may not be considering that would need to be resolved before it would be a wise idea to implement."

If you're "tired of going over it again and again" then just bow out and go recharge your batteries.

Nobody is benefiting from this tendency we have right now go up to the balcony level and chuck little firecrackers into the fray below for entertainment. That's the majority of discourse I see on serious issues these days. People flicking annoyingly at each other with gotchas and zingers and tugging whiskers to get a reaction for sport. People won't commit to a discussion unless they first come to some hasty generalization about what camp you're in or what ground you intend to hold so they can call the appropriate plays to get you riled up or discredit you by (free) association.

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Old 18th August 2019, 10:46 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I granted that for the sake of argument, since it wasn't the point I wanted to raise.

But if you want to play this game then, yes, given that X would lead to the destruction of Israel and BDS wants X, then BDS support something (X) that would lead to the destruction of Israel.

Now, as far as whether or not right of return would lead to the destruction of Israel, I have no opinion. Seems unlikely to actually destroy Israel that way, but I don't know much about the subject and I'm not particularly interested in it.

I was just interested in your claim that Uke has a lot in common with skinheads, that being, apparently, that something Uke supports (?) would lead to something the skinheads want, although Uke may not think so. So he's just like a skinhead, ain't he? Uncanny!
And I am just like a fascist (or to be generous to myself, fascist adjacent).

Good times we had marching around in shorts with armbands. But we never really accomplished much other than making the trains run on time.
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Old 19th August 2019, 01:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And I am just like a fascist (or to be generous to myself, fascist adjacent).

Good times we had marching around in shorts with armbands. But we never really accomplished much other than making the trains run on time.
Get over yourself, pls.
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:21 AM   #146
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Mod WarningThe topic of this thread is not other members, so stop the silly personalisation and attempts at insulting each other.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:42 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And I am just like a fascist (or to be generous to myself, fascist adjacent).

Good times we had marching around in shorts with armbands. But we never really accomplished much other than making the trains run on time.
In the same sense that Uke is like a skinhead, you are like a fascist, yes.

I totally agree that Uke's use of the term "fascism" seems hyperbolic.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:47 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
What does that have to do with anything?

I spend most of my time talking about politics specifically focusing on US politics. Does that mean I agree with everything that happens in other countries or that I'm anti-American?
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Old 19th August 2019, 06:59 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's be honest: the "Right of Return" is not going to happen. Makes a much sense as the descedents of all the Germans who were expelled from East Prussia in 1945/46 to demand to return to Poland.


I believe in a two state solution,but IMHO the "Right of Return" is pretty much a death sentence for Israel as a sovereign state.
And yet the two state solution is dead, and gets further and further away. At least the deindustrialization of palestinian lands can be counted as a victory, there are fewer and fewer people who can remember uninterupted electricity for more than 24 hours for example.

The settlements house 10% of the Israeli population they are of course a given that they are not going to be given up. The idea of two states is dead and has been for a long time, they need to accept that it just isn't going to happen.
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Old 19th August 2019, 07:01 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I note your equation of Zionism and Nazism. I guess that is current far left dogma.
I am equating them in that they both support Trump, do you really need more proof of that than Trump settlements in occupied territory and how much nazis praise him?

He is a great uniter, who else could have brought them together?
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Old 19th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Amazing how you got all that out of this:



The US took over responsibility for security for much of western Europe after WWII; are France and Germany not states?
Then south africa wasn't really an apartheid state either, the blacks had self ruling countries within the nation and just couldn't have things like a military.

Israel is always going to have this fundamental problem of being a religious state at the same time it is trying to be a western liberal democracy, those are not exactly compatible things to be.
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Old 19th August 2019, 07:19 AM   #152
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And that is the problem. We're all just supposed to pretend this isn't just a case of "God promised this strip of land to two chosen people" and treat this like it's some sort of legit modern political border dispute.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:25 PM   #153
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Not he biggest Bill Maher fan, but he is dead on when he says BDS has become something of a litmus test on the political left.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:37 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not he biggest Bill Maher fan, but he is dead on when he says BDS has become something of a litmus test on the political left.
Whatever helps you sleep at night, bro.
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Old 19th August 2019, 11:23 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not he biggest Bill Maher fan, but he is dead on when he says BDS has become something of a litmus test on the political left.
It's especially funny because the Left used to be completely gaga over Israel back in the 1950s and 1960s because of the kibbutzes.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:50 AM   #156
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We're not in the 1950's or 1960's.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:49 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's especially funny because the Left used to be completely gaga over Israel back in the 1950s and 1960s because of the kibbutzes.
It's funny because the Right used to be a party of fiscal responsibility as well as country before party back in the 1950s and 1960s.
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Old 20th August 2019, 04:21 AM   #158
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I'm gonna shock the tribes but the rest of the world doesn't design its conflicts to neatly fit into American Left/Right squabbling.

Really inconsiderate of them I know.
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Old 20th August 2019, 05:57 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's funny because the Right used to be a party of fiscal responsibility as well as country before party back in the 1950s and 1960s.
It's almost as if a large group of people willing to put racial and religious tribalism ahead of responsibility or common sense switched sides around 1964 for some reason.
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Old 20th August 2019, 06:12 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's especially funny because the Left used to be completely gaga over Israel back in the 1950s and 1960s because of the kibbutzes.
It shouldn't seem funny to people who understand that the fundamental principle of liberalism is political equality. Perhaps it's Israel that isn't the same since the '50s and '60s?

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