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Tags Hawaii incidents , Hawaii issues , protest issues , telescopes

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Old 16th August 2019, 10:26 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
One of the faces was originally on the other end, but the rock there was bad and it collapsed. I forget which end/president it was, but he ended up on the other side.
Do you have a source for that? Wiki doesn't mention it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm open to an argument in favor of shifting scientific research into the private sector, but I really wasn't expecting you to take that position. So okay, sure. Go for it.
It's not a SCIENCE vs RELIGION issue at all. It's a land use dispute, and legal remedies for those have existed forever. Let a court determine who owns the damn mountain, or parts of the mountain. Then what's done there is up to those owners, whether they're building telescopes or apiaries or strip clubs or nature preserves for paralytic turtles.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you have a source for that? Wiki doesn't mention it.
I read a book about the sculpting of the place. The guy who did it was a colorful character from all accounts. I don't have a cite at the moment, but I suspect a National Park Service site would have more info than Wikipedia.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:33 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I read a book about the sculpting of the place. The guy who did it was a colorful character from all accounts. I don't have a cite at the moment, but I suspect a National Park Service site would have more info than Wikipedia.
Right. It's sometimes frustrating how detailed some Wiki articles can be and how utterly barren others are.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right. It's sometimes frustrating how detailed some Wiki articles can be and how utterly barren others are.
What confuses me is when Chrome offers to translate a Wikipedia page for me when the page is already in English. What does Chrome think I speak, and why? It only ever does that for Wikipedia.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:37 AM   #46
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I actually like the finished design. The original "full from the waist up" design originally planned looked way too cluttered and crowded, like all four Presidents are trying to fit into an elevator, with Jefferson and especially Roosevelt almost being pushed into the background.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not a SCIENCE vs RELIGION issue at all. It's a land use dispute, and legal remedies for those have existed forever. Let a court determine who owns the damn mountain, or parts of the mountain. Then what's done there is up to those owners, whether they're building telescopes or apiaries or strip clubs or nature preserves for paralytic turtles.
The ownership is known. The dispute arises from a claim that the owner should be barred from using the land.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I actually like the finished design. The original "full from the waist up" design originally planned looked way too cluttered and crowded, like all four Presidents are trying to fit into an elevator, with Jefferson and especially Roosevelt almost being pushed into the background.
I think the natural mountain would have looked better left alone. A bunch of human faces and heads doesn't enhance nature's beauties, and even taken as individuals none of those guys were lookers. (Sources in his day did call Washington handsome, but I think their standards were lax compared to today's. None of the four would land their own TV show or fragrance today.)
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The ownership is known. The dispute arises from a claim that the owner should be barred from using the land.
Such a claim should be provable in court or dismissed. Landowners who cause harm to others by use of their own property is also a situation with vast legal precedent. There is no reason this conflict should merit consideration outside of the legal framework.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Such a claim should be provable in court or dismissed. Landowners who cause harm to others by use of their own property is also a situation with vast legal precedent. There is no reason this conflict should merit consideration outside of the legal framework.
I don't know what this means. The conflict is a legal conflict, being handled by the legal system.

But ultimately, it's a conflict over value judgments. The system is not being asked to adjudicate a matter of fact, but a matter of dispute between conflicting goods - scientific good versus cultural good. This kind of dispute is not so easily resolvable. It's ultimately a policy dispute, and thus it has significance to society as a whole. It's something we should definitely consider, even if we are not directly involved with the mechanics of the legal dispute as such.

What kind of consideration are you seeing here, that you think should be cut off?
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:55 AM   #51
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One could make the argument that a natural wonder belongs to everyone, and as such it should only be altered for extremely good reasons.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
One could make the argument that a natural wonder belongs to everyone, and as such it should only be altered for extremely good reasons.
And one can make that argument, in court. That's where the arguments are supposed to happen. Anywhere else is just blather.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:59 AM   #53
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Here is a public opinion survey:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/ci...-love-for-ige/
The two big takeaways is that majority support the project and that native Hawaiians are split with 44% support, 48% oppose.

The site of the telescopes has no previous human presence: no human artifacts of any kind. I suppose one could say the whole of the mountain is "sacred" but it isn't one of the meeting places or burial places on the mountain for native Hawaiians.

http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org/facts-about-tmt/
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:03 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know what this means. The conflict is a legal conflict, being handled by the legal system.

But ultimately, it's a conflict over value judgments. The system is not being asked to adjudicate a matter of fact, but a matter of dispute between conflicting goods - scientific good versus cultural good. This kind of dispute is not so easily resolvable. It's ultimately a policy dispute, and thus it has significance to society as a whole. It's something we should definitely consider, even if we are not directly involved with the mechanics of the legal dispute as such.

What kind of consideration are you seeing here, that you think should be cut off?
I disagree: the conflict over conflicting goods is outside the scope. The actual problem is who has the rights to this particular piece of land. That's all that requires answer. If party A owns it then it's irrelevant whether Science is enabled to pursue her noble quest yada yada because it's up to party A to decide. If A wants telescopes they can do that. If they want a fried chicken restaurant they can do that. If B really really really wants something else they can buy the land from A. Complaining about A will achieve nothing, and deservedly so.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:13 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree: the conflict over conflicting goods is outside the scope. The actual problem is who has the rights to this particular piece of land. That's all that requires answer. If party A owns it then it's irrelevant whether Science is enabled to pursue her noble quest yada yada because it's up to party A to decide. If A wants telescopes they can do that. If they want a fried chicken restaurant they can do that. If B really really really wants something else they can buy the land from A. Complaining about A will achieve nothing, and deservedly so.
It's a science reserve:
Quote:
The Reserve was established in 1968, and is leased by the State of Hawaiʻi's Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR).[20] The University of Hawaiʻi manages the site[20] and leases land to several multi-national facilities, which have invested more than $2 billion in science and technology.[1] The lease expires in 2033 and after that 40 of 45 square kilometers (25 of 28 square miles) revert to the state of Hawaii.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Kea_Observatories
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And one can make that argument, in court. That's where the arguments are supposed to happen. Anywhere else is just blather.
But if enough people protest and enough people change their minds, laws can be amended. I wouldn't call that empty blather.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:17 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
One could make the argument that a natural wonder belongs to everyone, and as such it should only be altered for extremely good reasons.
One certainly could. I'm skeptical of the premise, though. Not sure I've seen any of the arguments yet. So I'm open.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Then it appears to be settled.

At least until 2033. What happens then? If the sciences can renew the lease do they have to remove their stuff?
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Imagine if someone defaced Mount Rushmore! Outrageous...
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:25 AM   #60
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I posted earlier that this has already gone to the Hawaii Supreme Court. It's already been decided in the courts. The local Hawaii land bureau gave the builders a permit, and that permit was found valid by the courts. The state of Hawaii owns the land.

It's done. Build the telescope.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:42 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But that is exactly the basis of the existence of most countries and nations throughout the world. "People like me used to live here, as did their children, and their children's children...all the way until they got to me. And my children will own it when I am dead." In some cases, like Israel, there are long breaks in the middle part, yet Israelis nonetheless believe that they own the land they are on because "people like me used to live here."

So agree or not with the legitimacy of this concept, it appears to be the approach that underlies most of how people have assigned geography.
And that's working out pretty well for everyone involved, eh?

I'm not a big fan of sacred dirt. It gets everyone all riled up over nothing.

I had thought that there were environmental issues involved with the telescope and/or its construction on Mauna Kea. I'm very sympathetic to those concerns, but "sacred land?" Meh.

As for "ownership", we can't go back an right every wrong in history and find an original owner or their descendants and give things back. Yes, white people took over the Hawaiian Islands. It happened a long time ago. Somewhere in the intervening century plus, a legal framework was worked out where people born there had full rights, and they can move anywhere in the US, and anyone in the US can move there, and somewhere there's an elected government that gets to decide on building permits. I don't feel like giving some special veto power to people with a particular sort of DNA.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:48 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
One could make the argument that a natural wonder belongs to everyone, and as such it should only be altered for extremely good reasons.
Don't tell me what to do with my land!!!
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:57 AM   #63
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I think that basing land use policies on "our ancestors saw that big mountain and decided it was sacred and therefore never did anything with it but look" is pretty dumb. It would be one thing if a mining company was going to blow the top of the thing to get at its gooey mineral center or if somebody was going to knock down an ancient temple. Building a 90-foot telescope in order to study outer space (which I'll bet the Hawaiian ancestors also found sacred) should be something anyone can appreciate...maybe give the protestors the naming rights?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:05 PM   #64
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Well that's another one of the elephants in the room, even if we allow the playing of the "But that's sacred card!" if your concept of "sacred" includes a concept as broad and nebulous as "nature" you aren't going to get to play for everything you consider sacred.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not a SCIENCE vs RELIGION issue at all. It's a land use dispute, and legal remedies for those have existed forever. Let a court determine who owns the damn mountain, or parts of the mountain. Then what's done there is up to those owners, whether they're building telescopes or apiaries or strip clubs or nature preserves for paralytic turtles.
It's superstition vs. science.

Superstition...which has provided mankind with...what, exactly, that we should celebrate?

Science...which has improved mankind's living standards by a major magnitude.

Superstition...known for the Dark Ages. Life was nasty, brutish, and short.

Science...conquered smallpox, famine, and went to the moon. And beyond.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well that's another one of the elephants in the room, even if we allow the playing of the "But that's sacred card!" if your concept of "sacred" includes a concept as broad and nebulous as "nature" you aren't going to get to play for everything you consider sacred.
On the other hand,
- there's not much Hawaii to go around,
- it's mostly been taken away from the natives,
- a lot of it has already been developed and repurposed without concern for its sanctity in the eyes of the native community, and
- this particular bit of nature has been called out as being particularly important.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
- it's mostly been taken away from the natives,
I unequivocally, whole heartily, and completely reject the base concept of a "native."

A white person born on Hawaii a week ago Thursday and a "Native Hawaiian" who can trace his ancestry back to the original Polynesian settlers who landed five hundred years born a week ago Thursday have exactly equal claims and right to live on the island.

You are not your ancestors. You are you. Period.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then it appears to be settled.

At least until 2033. What happens then? If the sciences can renew the lease do they have to remove their stuff?
If you can't see everything there is to see from there in 14 years, you're not looking hard enough.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:21 PM   #69
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When the law and society actually treat each individual the same, rather than paying lip service to equality and treating individuals differently based on their ancestry, your rant will gain relevance.
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:31 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.
Yeah, we had a similar problem with some of the extremists in our local indigenous population. There exists in New Zealand a small core group of Maori (a small minority within Maori it self) who are nothing more than opportunists. They want special privileges and special consideration, calling themselves "native" to New Zealand, even though in fact they are no more native to these Islands than the Europeans who came here 400 years after they did. They make all kinds of outrageous claims, for example

► they claim exclusive ownership of the coastal waters of New Zealand, and all the fish and resources in the sea.

► they claim ownership of radio waves and the radio frequency spectrum, despite the fact that radio wasn't even invented for a hundred years after European colonization,

► they claim ownership of the airspace and the space above New Zealand. Some of them even tried to send NASA a bill for satellites that pass over New Zealand!

► they claim to own the wind as well, now that there is money to be made from wind power generation.

Finally, they claim ownership of all the water in our rivers and lakes, and all the water that falls out of the sky. At one point we had some Maori "kaumatua" (a sort of tribal chief/elder statesman) claiming that all the water in New Zealand belonged to Maori, that they alone were responsible for its management, and that the white people should pay Maori for every drop they used for anything; drinking, irrigation, manufacturing, even the local car wash.

Well, I for one, would be quite happy to accept their claim to ownership of the rivers, lakes, the water that falls from the sky, and the wind, provided that they are prepared to underwrite and pay all the costs of the damage done when their winds causes storm damage, when their rain causes flooding and causes rivers to burst their banks and flood millions of acres of farmland, and When that was pointed out to them, they dropped their claim to be responsible for its management, but they still said the water was theirs and they wanted the money.

In this case of the Hawaii telescope, I am very, very suspicious when these kinds of claims suddenly appear out of nowhere. Where were these claims back in the early-1960s when Gerard Kuiper first looked at Mauna Kea as a possible observatory site, or in 1967 when construction started?
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
It's superstition vs. science.

Superstition...which has provided mankind with...what, exactly, that we should celebrate?

Science...which has improved mankind's living standards by a major magnitude.

Superstition...known for the Dark Ages. Life was nasty, brutish, and short.

Science...conquered smallpox, famine, and went to the moon. And beyond.
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:03 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Where were these claims back in the early-1960s when Gerard Kuiper first looked at Mauna Kea as a possible observatory site, or in 1967 when construction started?
"Cultural practitioners who say they stand in protection of Mauna Kea, as a sacred Native Hawaiian site, have been protesting telescope development on the mountain since it first began in the 1960s."

Apparently, people were opposed to it then, too (the above is one of several such claims I found within the five minutes I bothered looking, although, weirdly, none have specific details). If that's the case, I would assume no one heard about it because the people in charge of construction and media didn't particularly care.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I unequivocally, whole heartily, and completely reject the base concept of a "native."

A white person born on Hawaii a week ago Thursday and a "Native Hawaiian" who can trace his ancestry back to the original Polynesian settlers who landed five hundred years born a week ago Thursday have exactly equal claims and right to live on the island.

You are not your ancestors. You are you. Period.
People don't think it be like it is, but it do.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:09 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
Fine (within reason) but you can't use your religion as the basis for your claim that the land is yours, either literally or figuratively.

"I own the land, here's the deed with my name own, now get out of my while I erect a giant Macaroni and Cheese sculpture of Frederick the Great" is fine.

"That mountain over there? Well a thousand years ago one of my ancestor's imaginary friends said it's a special mountain we're not allowed to touch" is not.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
That trouble with that is these people believe in some spiritual woo woo fantasy that land ownership is not a right of individual mere mortals like you or I. They believe that the land is a shared spiritual entity granted by Magic Sky Daddy for the exclusive use of his loyal subjects. They don't recognize the authority that grants you legal title. They argue that you don't own the land, even if you think you do, even if you legally do, and even if you can show clear title.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:51 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
"Cultural practitioners who say they stand in protection of Mauna Kea, as a sacred Native Hawaiian site, have been protesting telescope development on the mountain since it first began in the 1960s."

Apparently, people were opposed to it then, too (the above is one of several such claims I found within the five minutes I bothered looking, although, weirdly, none have specific details). If that's the case, I would assume no one heard about it because the people in charge of construction and media didn't particularly care.

Hmmmm... a 2019 article claiming there were protests in the 1960's? Sorry, not buying it. When someone can show me contemporaneous 1960's articles about the protests; for example, from physical newspaper archives, then I will find those claims more acceptable.


ETA: If the article had quoted a legitimate source they had researched, one that confirmed there were anti-telescope protests in the 1960's, I would find that acceptable, but just taking the word of contemporary protesters is not good enough.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That trouble with that is these people believe in some spiritual woo woo fantasy that land ownership is not a right of individual mere mortals like you or I. They believe that the land is a shared spiritual entity granted by Magic Sky Daddy for the exclusive use of his loyal subjects. They don't recognize the authority that grants you legal title. They argue that you don't own the land, even if you think you do, even if you legally do, and even if you can show clear title.
Problem is knee jerk reactions on these issues before getting all the facts..which we have seen some in this thread.
Many have a knee jerk reaction to side with the "oppressed native peoples" automatically, without getting all the facts, because it fits their world view.
I think they assumed the land was being taken from Native Hawaiins when in fact it has been owned by the US Government for nearly a hundred years.

Apparently, some of the leaders of the protesters want to secede from the US and restablish the Kingdom of Hawaii.

Good luck with that, since a large majority of the people of Hawaii are not of Polynesian descent.

Who knows, maybe some of the extreme Maori leaders you were talking about were giving advice to their cousins in Hawaii on this.

Look, no one is denying that indigiunous people were screwed over badly after the coming of the Europeans. But you can't go back and change history.


Another example are a few people here who support giving the Black Hills in South Dakota back to the Sioux, despite the fact that would involve uprooting around half a million people. Just is not going to happen.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right. It's sometimes frustrating how detailed some Wiki articles can be and how utterly barren others are.
That is what you get and what you have to expect when you have an "Enclycopedia Anybody Can Edit."
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:31 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A bunch of human faces and heads doesn't enhance nature's beauties
Human faces and heads are natural objects, just like mountainsides.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:57 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
This land is your land, this land is my land...
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