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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 20th August 2019, 10:34 AM   #241
Trebuchet
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Trump, QAnon, and Falun Gong.

Interesting.
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:38 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
Stupid uncle would get an X or XX or even XXX would be my guess


"XXX is the sexiest mistake! #Winning! MAGA!"
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:41 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"What are three things you wouldn't want with you when stranded on a desert island?"
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:47 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He HAS to be stepping into Libel range here, or at least getting really close. I would assume he has to provide evidence of these statements at some point in time.
Popehat has made the argument (backed up by examples of similar cases) that Trump says outrageous things so often that he would almost certainly win in a libel suit on the basis that nobody could take what he says seriously - and the fact that there are people who do wouldn't actually change that.
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:48 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Popehat has made the argument (backed up by examples of similar cases) that Trump says outrageous things so often that he would almost certainly win in a libel suit on the basis that nobody could take what he says seriously
Maybe he really is a genius!
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:49 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What do you mean "how"? It's not the same thing, ergo it's different.

Scenario 1: "Hey, man. Wanna make some money? Come to this rally and I'll pay you 200 bucks!"
Scenario 2: "Don't forget to come to the auditorium tomorrow, rather than your cubicle. If you don't come, you won't get the overtime pay. You're still paid as per usual, however. It's not mandatory."

Those are two completely different things. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
Sorry, they aren't that different, much as I almost never agree with McHr.

'We'll pay you if you go'
'We'll dock your pay if you don't go'

So what they still get some pay.
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:52 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry, they aren't that different, much as I almost never agree with McHr.

'We'll pay you if you go'
'We'll dock your pay if you don't go'
Well, I'm sorry, but when I saw the link I expected to read that some of his recent rallies were composed in good part of paid participants. Instead we got something about some dick who's threatening to not pay his employers if they don't attend Trump's visit. One would be hilarious and sad, and the other is downright pissing me off.

Quote:
So what they still get some pay.
I've never said anything of the sort.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:00 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Some context on the latest conspiracy theory trump has picked up on:

Oh, and as an added kicker:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...googles-fault/
There's a Senate Committee grilling a Google rep right now (CSPAN rerun) and it's obvious what they are trying to do, the Republicans on the committee anyway.

Ted Cruz is convinced because Google refused an ad by Marsha Blackburn that had bleeped profanity, Google is favoring the Democrats.

Cruz complained about this as if it were a valid representation:
Insider Blows Whistle & Exec Reveals Google Plan to Prevent “Trump situation” in 2020 on Hidden Cam

We all know how O'Keefe edits videos. The actual point was about preventing the Russian intervention in the 2016 election. Cruz was acting as if it was a Google plot against Trump.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Cruz was acting as if it was a Google plot against Trump.
He should know all about plots. After all, his dad killed JFK.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, I meant it was weird because I haven't seen that happen, but perhaps I just haven't noticed or something.

But I'd say it's also weird because were I a business owner, I would want reviews from those who visited my business and not from those who didn't I don't think I'd like to increase the former by also increasing the latter. Again, maybe lots of businesses do this sort of thing. I just haven't heard of it.
Well, it depends a little bit what Craig4 is actually talking about. At first I thought he meant literally a customer satisfaction survey commissioned by the property, triggered by him being close to the property as registered by GPS on his phone.

But the more I think about it, the more I think it's probably those Google maps-related "tell us about your visit to X", which are triggered the same way via GPS proximity, but have nothing to do with the business owner.

Those are more about Google building a pattern of inferences which it can then provide to other users looking at that part of the map. It'll get a lot of false positives, but Google is clearly not concerned about having a fuzzy border around the "facts" of public opinion on its maps.

But even if it were an actual customer survey commissioned by the property, I think it's still probably better to cast a wide net. The majority of people nearby in GPS are probably going to actually be vistiting the place. The majority of people just passing by are probably going to ignore the survey prompt. A decent market research firm should be able to figure out the error bars and pitch a worthwhile product back to the client based on soliciting surveys in this way.

Larger error bars, but extremely cheap to do and far less intrusive, compared to human survey-takers stationed at the venue itself. You could even solicit surveys through a few different methods. Humans on premise to get highly relevant surveys at relatively high cost. And then phone-prompted surveys at a much lower cost. You could even compare phone surveys to on-prem surveys, and use the variances to spot fake phone surveys from drive-bys.

Or just discard the spittle-flecked rants about OMB.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:50 AM   #251
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Why are we talking about customer surveys in a Trump thread?

Why are we arguing about paying vs not paying employees in a Trump thread?
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:52 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why are we talking about customer surveys in a Trump thread?

Why are we arguing about paying vs not paying employees in a Trump thread?
Well the latter's about a Trump appearance that he, of course, treated as a rally.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:00 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Popehat has made the argument (backed up by examples of similar cases) that Trump says outrageous things so often that he would almost certainly win in a libel suit on the basis that nobody could take what he says seriously - and the fact that there are people who do wouldn't actually change that.
I remember him addressing it a few times, but there has to be a line. You can't let some stupid ******* talk all the **** he wants simply because he's a **** talking *******.

I know what Popehat was saying, and to some degree I agree with it, but enough has to be enough. He's blatantly attributing views to another person without any evidence that the person holds said views.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why are we talking about customer surveys in a Trump thread?
Hell if I know. I'm as confused as you are.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why are we arguing about paying vs not paying employees in a Trump thread?
That I can easily answer. The paying vs. not paying is directly related to Trump holding a rally that employees were properly paid to go to. It can't get much more related to Trump than literally being about the attendance of a rally.

I'm glad I could help!
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:01 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why are we arguing about paying vs not paying employees in a Trump thread?
Yea it is only contractors who don't get paid in a Trump thread. Also cities like El Paso. And...


Ok not paying people is always relevant in a Trump thread.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:04 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"It doesn't matter if he died from a heart attack or by gunshot, your honor. One way or another he's dead. It makes no difference!"

Sorry, that the end result is that Trump's crowd numbers are inflated doesn't change the fact that the dynamic is very different. I don't see why that's controversial.
I think that Belz's comment that this is different than a rent-a-crowd should be uncontroversial. It's similar in some ways, but it's different in that these folk would be giving up their usual pay if they don't attend, rather than getting bonus pay for attending.

Some have said it's worse than rent-a-crowd. Belz hasn't given his opinion on whether it's better or worse, far as I can recall. I think there's some merit to the claim that it's worse. One's employer is effectively pressuring the person to attend what was obviously a political event (though perhaps that's not what was originally promised, I don't know).

I don't see why everyone is hollering at Belz for pointing out the differences. There are differences as well as similarities.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:11 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I think that Belz's comment that this is different than a rent-a-crowd should be uncontroversial. It's similar in some ways, but it's different in that these folk would be giving up their usual pay if they don't attend, rather than getting bonus pay for attending.

Some have said it's worse than rent-a-crowd. Belz hasn't given his opinion on whether it's better or worse, far as I can recall. I think there's some merit to the claim that it's worse. One's employer is effectively pressuring the person to attend what was obviously a political event (though perhaps that's not what was originally promised, I don't know).

I don't see why everyone is hollering at Belz for pointing out the differences. There are differences as well as similarities.
My best guess is it's a distinction that literally makes no difference.

It boils down to: If you went to the rally would you get more money than if you didn't go to the rally?

I get that we love to split hairs here and nitpick down to the finest of details, but the distinction here makes absolutely no difference at all. A company\contractor told its employees they would get more money (No matter how you shake it out) if they went to the rally. A company\contractor told their employees that they would receive less money if they did not attend the rally. Whether it's regular pay, vacation pay, etc. it really doesn't matter, unless you really feel the need to get that granular. Either way. Going = more, not going = less.

Both of those are established, and undeniable facts.

Compare that to a criminal case where it boils down to someone having a heart attack or a being ******* murdered. I mean, seriously. To you that's an apt analogy? They are completely and entirely different situations that would have drastically different outcomes for the scenario. Does the Trump situation have that? No, it's either more money or less money.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:14 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post


That I can easily answer. The paying vs. not paying is directly related to Trump holding a rally that employees were properly paid to go to. It can't get much more related to Trump than literally being about the attendance of a rally.

I'm glad I could help!
It can’t?

The money didn’t come out of President Trump’s pocket, did it?
President Trump didn’t decide that these people should be plaplaced in this position, did he?

I have a hard time placing this in top 300 most discussion-worthy comments and actions from DJT.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:16 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Compare that to a criminal case where it boils down to someone having a heart attack or a being ******* murdered. I mean, seriously. To you that's an apt analogy? They are completely and entirely different situations that would have drastically different outcomes for the scenario.
They're not entirely different. In both cases someone died.

That was the point I was trying to make. Sure, something important is the same between the two scenarios. But the meat of what's going on, which I would consider to be more important both in the analogy and in real life, is quite different. Seriously, I don't know why not everyone sees this, especially since I've explained it in every way I could think of.

But I'll repeat: if McHrozni says "Trump (or his rich backers) are paying people to attend his rallies." I don't expect it to mean "factory workers are forced to attend Trump's speech during work hours lest they are denied their pay." It's misleading at best.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:40 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That was the point I was trying to make. Sure, something important is the same between the two scenarios. But the meat of what's going on, which I would consider to be more important both in the analogy and in real life, is quite different. Seriously, I don't know why not everyone sees this, especially since I've explained it in every way I could think of.
Right, but just because you explain something every way you can think of doesn't mean that other people will agree with your explanation or your viewpoint. It doesn't mean you're right.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But I'll repeat: if McHrozni says "Trump (or his rich backers) are paying people to attend his rallies." I don't expect it to mean "factory workers are forced to attend Trump's speech during work hours lest they are denied their pay." It's misleading at best.
Ok, did he say that? I haven't seen anyone here claim that Trump was paying them, or even imply it. I might have missed some ****.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:46 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He HAS to be stepping into Libel range here, or at least getting really close. I would assume he has to provide evidence of these statements at some point in time.
Legally, no, he doesn't.
If you are a public figure in the US, and Tlaib is certainly that, Libel is almost impossible to prove.
And what Trump said about Tlaib is no worse then what a lot of people are saying about Trump.
They don't have to legally produce Proof, and neither does Donny.
Still INHO the POTUS should simply not stoop to that level.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:55 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Legally, no, he doesn't.
If you are a public figure in the US, and Tlaib is certainly that, Libel is almost impossible to prove.
And what Trump said about Tlaib is no worse then what a lot of people are saying about Trump.
They don't have to legally produce Proof, and neither does Donny.
Still INHO the POTUS should simply not stoop to that level.
Do you have anything to support that?

Libel is defined as:

Quote:
a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.
This is a) written and b) damaging to her reputation given that it got her banned from a country (despite it being reversed). These are provable statements, and Trump actually wrote the initial statement that prompted the banning as well.

I know you're correct that it's more complicated for public figures to sue for libel, but this is blatant. He's blatantly saying that she hates all Jews and singling her out.

I'm not saying this specifically is libel, but it's certainly getting there as well as borderline harassment to me. He's using a position of power and his social media presence to harass her.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:59 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But I'll repeat: if McHrozni says "Trump (or his rich backers) are paying people to attend his rallies." I don't expect it to mean "factory workers are forced to attend Trump's speech during work hours lest they are denied their pay." It's misleading at best.
Belz, I think the muddling factor is that this rally took place on their work site.

The employers are closing the work site for the rally, and all employees are forced to not work this day. No one can or will be paid for work, as the work site is closed for the day. Everyone loses the days pay, and overtime benefit later in the week. If it stopped here you would be correct, penalizing workers for not showing up is not paying them to show up.

But, the employer also says, "we will pay everyone that shows up to the rally a days pay, and this day's pay will also be considered hours worked for overtime calculations. If you choose not to show up, it's OK, we won't hold it against you.

The above is exactly Paying the workers to go to a rally, and exactly what occurred. It is paying workers to go to a rally.

The employer is just working real hard to make it not sound like they were paying for attendance.
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:03 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
*snipped for brevity*
Reading through your explanation, it made me wonder if there's a legal requirement for something like this. As far as getting paid that is, since it's not technically a "rally" it was considered a government function of the POTUS.

Are the contractors\employers required in any way to give them payment given that the plant had to close (I assume for security reasons)?
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:09 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Reading through your explanation, it made me wonder if there's a legal requirement for something like this. As far as getting paid that is, since it's not technically a "rally" it was considered a government function of the POTUS.

Are the contractors\employers required in any way to give them payment given that the plant had to close (I assume for security reasons)?
The company could have said the site is closed for the day, no one get's paid (which is effectively what they did). In such cases, if employees have Vacation/PTO they can choose to use it that day to get a (nearly) full check.

Then the company could have invited any employees that wished to attend the means to do so (check in, breakfast, buses, etc.). No pay required.

Thus, again, this is a pay for play for those choosing to attend.
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:53 PM   #265
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What's one way of getting Jewish voters to vote for you? Tell them they lack knowledge!

Quote:
"I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat -- I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty," Trump said.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:12 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What's one way of getting Jewish voters to vote for you? Tell them they lack knowledge!

"I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat -- I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty," Trump said.
Who exactly does he think they're being "disloyal" to?

The assumption is Trump was referring to Israel, but last time I checked, Israel was a separate country from the U.S., and being a citizen of one did not automatically make you a citizen of the other.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:17 PM   #267
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Apparently the Log Cabin Republicans have officially endorsed Trump for 2020. This is surprising given that Trump has consistently sided with evangelical reactionaries totally opposed to any and all LGBT rights.

He doesn't hesitate one second to bar trans people from the military just to placate one representative... who actually only asked for the military to stop funding their medicine and not bar them. Would Trump hesitate to bar homo/bisexuals from the military if his committed homophobes was nagging him about it?

Of course this only affected a very small, even negligible number of people... which is one of the reasons why one can only question why some people felt it was so important they be removed from the military.

For things that really matter, let it be known that The Trump Administration, which has said it would not lecture brutal dictators about torturing dissidents to death or murdering journalists in embassies, is standing up for gay rights abroad by supporting the legalization of gay sex. You won't hear that on the FAKE NEWS of course...
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:21 PM   #268
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So how to fix the economy and head off an upcoming recession?

Why, Tax cuts of course!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/20/polit...omy/index.html
...officials have discussed the possibility of a potential payroll tax cut to stave off anxiety over an economic slowdown in recent days.

Admittedly, a payroll tax cut would be better than what the republicans did last time (largely corporate tax cuts and estate tax cuts), it would still drive up the deficit even more, and the U.S. would still have to deal with certain infrastructure problems.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:35 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Apparently the Log Cabin Republicans have officially endorsed Trump for 2020. This is surprising given that Trump has consistently sided with evangelical reactionaries totally opposed to any and all LGBT rights.
Who else are they really going to back? It's not like there are a wide range of Republicans that are extremely open to homo\bisexual views. I don't think anyone is running against Trump this time around either. So it's either a) support him because he's running or b) don't support anyone at all. Might as well get their names in the paper.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Admittedly, a payroll tax cut would be better than what the republicans did last time (largely corporate tax cuts and estate tax cuts), it would still drive up the deficit even more, and the U.S. would still have to deal with certain infrastructure problems.
At least the middle class might actually get some benefit from that. Though not as much as they would like I would bet.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:44 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So how to fix the economy and head off an upcoming recession?

Why, Tax cuts of course!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/20/polit...omy/index.html
...officials have discussed the possibility of a potential payroll tax cut to stave off anxiety over an economic slowdown in recent days.

Admittedly, a payroll tax cut would be better than what the republicans did last time (largely corporate tax cuts and estate tax cuts), it would still drive up the deficit even more, and the U.S. would still have to deal with certain infrastructure problems.
Just *****' crazy. Reduce tax revenue in order to worsen the deficit just to allay anxiety for another fiscal quarter. Trump is trying to make the country as much a head-in-the-sand denialist as he himself is. The only tactic conceived is immediate relief; no thought given beyond that all too near horizon.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:45 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Just *****' crazy. Reduce tax revenue in order to worsen the deficit just to allay anxiety for another fiscal quarter. Trump is trying to make the country as much a head-in-the-sand denialist as he himself is. The only tactic conceived is immediate relief; no thought given beyond that all too near horizon.
That's not the near horizon, it's a cliff.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:51 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...



I've never said anything of the sort.
You did, you said they get their regular pay (some pay), just not the overtime.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:54 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
My best guess is it's a distinction that literally makes no difference.....
This ^

Bottom line, Some people at some Trump rallies are entice with compensation to attend.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:58 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
It can’t?

The money didn’t come out of President Trump’s pocket, did it?
President Trump didn’t decide that these people should be plaplaced in this position, did he?

I have a hard time placing this in top 300 most discussion-worthy comments and actions from DJT.
Nothing comes out of Trump's pocket. He uses campaign donors for everything. This is like paying off Karen and Stormy, someone else paid the money.

In this case there should definitely be a campaign finance investigation into whether those salary benefits constitute an undeclared campaign donation.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:58 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Just *****' crazy. Reduce tax revenue in order to worsen the deficit just to allay anxiety for another fiscal quarter. Trump is trying to make the country as much a head-in-the-sand denialist as he himself is. The only tactic conceived is immediate relief; no thought given beyond that all too near horizon.

That is how Trump has lived his whole life.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:04 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not forfeiting an amount of money you'd normally get is not the same thing as being paid to attend some event. That's quite different. From the title, you'd get the impression that people at Trump's rallies are paid to be there -- which wouldn't surprise me. But this isn't the case. It's people who are NOT going to be paid in full if they don't attent as part of their work.



No, just different. Different enough for the title to be misleading.
Nope, those that attended were clocked in and were paid for that time. That's paying them to attend as well as letting those know who didn't attend that they wouldn't be making their normal pay.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:09 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The one thing to be made clear here is that this was NOT something Trump or his campaign actually did. It was the company who was responsible.

Not sure if it was the company or the union, perhaps both.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:10 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Who else are they really going to back? It's not like there are a wide range of Republicans that are extremely open to homo\bisexual views. I don't think anyone is running against Trump this time around either. So it's either a) support him because he's running or b) don't support anyone at all. Might as well get their names in the paper.
Maybe it's time they reconsidered their political affiliations, since their party only seems to produce candidates that are either directly hostile towards their own interests, or merely tolerates them simply because there's nothing to gain from undermining them.

The only reason evangelical Christians are not focusing on bashing LGBT individuals and agitating against their freedoms is because it would be politically unpopular throughout much of the country.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:13 PM   #279
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Trump in the case of taxes, is following a long GOP tradition.

Reagan- big tax cuts, deficit soared.
GW- big tax cuts, said he was giving people their money, then he started a needless war and didn't pay for it.
And now Trump- big tax cuts especially ones he and he family enjoy, deficit is soaring.

In between Clinton and Obama repaired some of the damage.

Lying GOP continues to claim they are fiscally responsible and the Democrats overspend.
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Old 20th August 2019, 03:16 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right. Heart attack or murder. No difference.



But that's money they would've had anyway just for showing up to work that day. That the money would be denied if they didn't attend the event is a dick move, but it's not like paying actors to see his candidacy announcement back in 2015.
Were they able to show up for work that day? If so then there would be no need for the excused absence citation. What work can you do if everyone esle, most or just critical personnel is absent or at a rally?
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