ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags racism , racism issues

Reply
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:38 AM   #121
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All this monkey talk reminds of the Howard Cosell incident. . . I seriously doubt Cosell was racist given all his work supporting black athletes. That's the problem when innocuous words are cast as racial insults -every use of the innocuous word towards a minority does not default to racist intent but it's so easy to twist it that way.
So when does someone doing racist chants and using racial epithets mean it or not?

The flip side is that maybe he was racist, but he also did a lot to help black athletes, why should these be fundamentally incompatible?

That is really want people need to change how they think about it, racism is a spectrum and everyone does fall on it at some level, it is not a simple binary state.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:41 AM   #122
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why? Part of the discussion is acknowledging the fact that not everything bad done to minorities/POC is racially motivated. If we aren't allowed to point out when something that has been deemed racist is not actually racist, then "the race card" has chilling effects.
Yep like how they get called back for interviews for jobs at lower rates if they have a clean criminal record than white felons, nothing racist about that either and claiming that HR departments systematically discriminate against black people while supported by evidence is in no way racist and claiming that race is the reason black people are called back much less frequently is playing the race card.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:44 AM   #123
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,864
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What you guys aren't getting is that this example of a crowd shouting racist insults at a minority is a good example of people who aren't racist being labeled racist just for disagreeing with a person of a different skin color. Somehow.

Schrodinger's Racist, apparently.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:47 AM   #124
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Schrodinger's Racist, apparently.
Look it is just the standard for considering someone a racist is a very high bar, merely chanting racist chants in no way makes someone a racist. They have to be wearing full KKK costume, chanting racist chants and drowning a black baby to really be considered to be racist, and even then it is only while they are doing that.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:48 AM   #125
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,792
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look it is just the standard for considering someone a racist is a very high bar, merely chanting racist chants in no way makes someone a racist. They have to be wearing full KKK costume, chanting racist chants and drowning a black baby to really be considered to be racist, and even then it is only while they are doing that.
Even then it's "satire".
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:55 AM   #126
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,363
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then you would be surprised by the actual studies. Who are you claiming has no unconscious bias with race?

Everyone has biases shaped by their experience, those will always come out in ways unless carefully controlled for. So race certainly is a part of it, though I guess with regard to specific races being unable to differentiate say someone Thai from Korean would limit ones racial biases with regard to differences between them. So how someone conceptualizes race would impact it to a degree.
I try to be aware of my biases, and as you say, I'm sure I have them, just due to having grown up in the 1970s in the UK. I'm not sure that this latest generation of kids will though. A lot will have not been exposed to racist tropes in general culture, but will have been aware of racism being bad.

Obviously it's different in different parts of the world, but if children don't see people expressing racist views and do see people of many ethnicities being friends, then I doubt that the'd develop that unconscious bias.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:17 PM   #127
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,864
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I try to be aware of my biases, and as you say, I'm sure I have them, just due to having grown up in the 1970s in the UK. I'm not sure that this latest generation of kids will though. A lot will have not been exposed to racist tropes in general culture, but will have been aware of racism being bad.

Problem is, general culture is still full of racist tropes, albeit many of them are more subtle than in times past, but they're there. Certainly in the US they're not only present, but some are very popular; and given what I see in the UK I'm certain they exist there as well. One only needs to pick up a copy of the Daily Fail or Torygraph to see just how present such tropes still are.

And the fact that hard-right political parties such as UKIP and the Brexit Party are so popular right now shows just how much the new generation is embracing those tropes; much like the various neo-nazi and other fascist gangs like Proud Boys show how much those tropes are being embraced in the US.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:55 PM   #128
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What you guys aren't getting is that this example of a crowd shouting racist insults at a minority is a good example of people who aren't racist being labeled racist just for disagreeing with a person of a different skin color. Somehow.
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When you have a stadium full of drunken sports fans booing a minority player, I'd bet a large sum of money that some of them are yelling racial slurs.
And they all lived happily ever after.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 22nd August 2019 at 06:06 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:26 PM   #129
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,286
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What you guys aren't getting is that this example of a crowd shouting racist insults at a minority is a good example of people who aren't racist being labeled racist just for disagreeing with a person of a different skin color. Somehow.
Oh, now I get it.

It's the standard conservative slice-n-dice, narrow exception, look at this in a vacuum, type deal.

ONE girl out of possibly dozens or more who were yelling terms like 'ape' who Goodes just happened to have singled out claimed she didn't understand the racial slur intended. See, we're all supposed to now realize that thiis sort of thing is apparently far more common than we all think and therefore, we cannot conclude any other particular person is actually using racial slurs just because they use terms that are historically racist and we mustn't be too hasty in future now!
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:01 PM   #130
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
ONE girl out of possibly dozens or more who were yelling terms like 'ape' ......
A really good fairy tale includes crystal balls and magic wands.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:23 PM   #131
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,163
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
ONE girl out of possibly dozens or more who were yelling terms like 'ape' who Goodes just happened to have singled out claimed she didn't understand the racial slur intended. See, we're all supposed to now realize that thiis sort of thing is apparently far more common than we all think and therefore, we cannot conclude any other particular person is actually using racial slurs just because they use terms that are historically racist and we mustn't be too hasty in future now!
LOL....I have seen it argued in this very forum, presumably with a straight face, that it's perfectly normal for non-racist white people to hurl racial slurs like the n-word at black people they are angry with.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 01:32 AM   #132
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,491
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Interesting. The normal definition of the word "hoax" suggests that the story being offered is in some sense untrue, but apparently in Trumpian newspeak it means "focusing on stories we don't want anybody to be telling because they make us look as bad as we actually are." But thanks for clarifying that you've now expanded your personal definition of the word "hoax" to include things that are actually true.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 05:25 AM   #133
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,932
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
LOL....I have seen it argued in this very forum, presumably with a straight face, that it's perfectly normal for non-racist white people to hurl racial slurs like the n-word at black people they are angry with.
Yeah the number of people who think racism is justified if you're legit angry at a minority is bothersome.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 06:01 AM   #134
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 7,151
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And they all lived happily ever after.
Do you think you made a point there? I'm still stuck on how your crowd of people yelling racial insults, so much so that children in the group join in without understanding what they are yelling, is evidence of people who aren't racist being unjustly labeled. Or is this the "it's ok to yell racial insults if you really are upset" excuse mentioned?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 06:40 AM   #135
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then you are simply lying to yourself and pretending you are above all that. You might have less than others, but there is simply no way to prevent preconceptions from coloring your perceptions and hence actions.

No, I'm not lying to myself. Why do you think I am? And I disagree with your definition of racism as 'preconceptions coloring your perceptions and hence actions.' And I disagree with them even if you add the adjective racial to preconceptions.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 06:46 AM   #136
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I agree that it is racism, but in this case the difference isn't skin color. I mean, it might be; maybe some groups are lighter than others, but it the Tutsi/Hutu thing the killers checked ID cards to find out who to massacre, so they obviously couldn't tell just by looking.

The Nazis also couldn't tell the difference between alleged Aryans and alleged Jews just by looking. Their race science was crap, of course. That didn't make their racism less racist.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 06:57 AM   #137
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,121
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
LOL....I have seen it argued in this very forum, presumably with a straight face, that it's perfectly normal for non-racist white people to hurl racial slurs like the n-word at black people they are angry with.
Hi Checkmite!
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:14 AM   #138
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
What Disney record was that? The only references I've ever heard about were Song of the South and the crows in Dumbo.

I've probably still got it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
Like I said, it may have been a Danish thing. For instance, many of the Donald Duck comics were produced by the Danish publishing house Egmont/Gutenberghus for the European market.

This is from a children's movie (nothing to do with Disney) from 1958. Two Danish children in blackface:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Very popular at the time! Nowadays, probably not so much ...

Quote:
In one of history's most successful Danish franchises Little Per and Little Grethe sing A Little Black Negro from Africa. They both have blackface makeup and sing that the animals in Africa and the N-words understand each other. The producer of the movie Henning Karmark sympathized with the Nazis, which may explain why the scene survived.
TOP 10: Negere kravler da i træer (Ekko Film, March 8, 2014)
I actually don't think that the scene had anything to do with a producer's Nazi sympathies. At the time, I don't think anybody in Denmark would find it problematic.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:15 AM   #139
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
What Disney record was that? The only references I've ever heard about were Song of the South and the crows in Dumbo.

I've probably still got it. I'll see if I can find it.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:16 AM   #140
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,932
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
LOL....I have seen it argued in this very forum, presumably with a straight face, that it's perfectly normal for non-racist white people to hurl racial slurs like the n-word at black people they are angry with.
Or say, and I'm just totally speaking hypothetically here, to paint on swastika on your Jewish neighbors house but it totally not being racist because you didn't know your neighbor was Jewish you thought he was just a jerk.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:18 AM   #141
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The thing I always wonder about racial separatists - how many categories would they divide people into?

Whatever might fit their purpose. Since it's not a rational idea in the first place, it's a little like interpreting the words of God.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:20 AM   #142
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah the number of people who think racism is justified if you're legit angry at a minority is bothersome.

Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:21 AM   #143
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,932
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...
Your point?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:24 AM   #144
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,286
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A really good fairy tale includes crystal balls and magic wands.
Why is this directed at me?

I'm just going on precisely what "your side" is saying...
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If she was just following the crowd, chanting what they were chanting without grasping the racially charged elements then her particular intentions may have just been to heckle an opposing player.
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:28 AM   #145
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,121
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Or say, and I'm just totally speaking hypothetically here, to paint on swastika on your Jewish neighbors house but it totally not being racist because you didn't know your neighbor was Jewish you thought he was just a jerk.
Or say, and I'm just totally not speaking hypothetically here, go hang out with some people of different races for a bit. Younger guys especially. You'll note the n-word is used exactly like m-f'er or cabron , sometimes playfully and sometimes in anger. 'S true.

If the idea of hanging out with darkies just terrifies you, just watch Pulp Fiction.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:30 AM   #146
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,932
Ah yes the "But why can they say it and we can't" sub-argument. Figure we'd land on that hairsplit sooner or later.

I can't even be bothered to put the brain cells into figuring out what "go watch Pulp Fiction" is supposed to mean.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:39 AM   #147
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,792
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...
There are some differences in those things. Not everything that is mean and hurts feelings is equal. Racism has been used to justify murder, genocide, slavery, and countless atrocities and injustices. Fat-shaming hasn't exactly had quite the same impact, historically or in current society. Hence calling someone fat may be mean but it's hardly on the level of calling them a [insert racial slur of choice].
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:40 AM   #148
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,121
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah yes the "But why can they say it and we can't" sub-argument. Figure we'd land on that hairsplit sooner or later.
Good thing no one is saying anything remotely like that, then.

Quote:
I can't even be bothered to put the brain cells into figuring out what "go watch Pulp Fiction" is supposed to mean.
Don't strain yourself. Cliff notes version: black and white guys using the n-word casually, in what appears to be an entirely non-racist way. That movie is well-known enough to be a commonly recognized example.

But seriously: add some melanin to your social group. You might be surprised that the White people in the twittersphere have it wrong.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:55 AM   #149
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...
Your point?

It is obviously racist to call somebody the N-word. People hurl these words at each other in order to hurt. If they are 13-year-olds, I would first make absolutely sure that they know what they are doing:
1) Why do you want to be hurtful in this situation?
2) Are you aware of the tradition that you join when you use that particular word? I.e. in the case of the N-word, is it actually that person's race that you have a problem with? If it isn't, then why use it? (If it is, it will be a much longer discussion!)

But I think that there's a difference between, on the one hand, somebody yelling it at a soccer match where a 13-year-old who wants to fit in uses the word because apparently it's about humiliating the opposite team - not that that isn't stupid enough in itself - and on the other hand, somebody yelling it at a racist rally. (Portland, Charlottesville)
A 13-year-old may have (actual!) black friends and never consider using the word against them or in any other contexts than the stadium: against the opposite team - sometimes even forgetting about their own team having beloved players of the same color.
It's still the time to have a serious conversation about the racism and attitude, but ... see my questions.

I compare it with fat-shaming because that also has to do with an attempt to humiliate others. You won't see any obese obese footballers, but a 13-year-old with one or more obese friends might still call somebody else fat to demean them. In that situation, it would also be time for a serious talk to find out what is at play here: Does the young person in general look down on somebody for being obese? (Probably not, if he or she has obese friend.) So why use it as a slur against anybody? What would their obese friends think if they heard it?

I think that you would need to have similar conversations if you heard a 13-year-old call somebody a loser (classism) or gay/effeminate (sexism). A 13-year-old may not be totally aware of why they use the slurs, but it's extremely important that they are made aware.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:07 AM   #150
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,521
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There are some differences in those things. Not everything that is mean and hurts feelings is equal. Racism has been used to justify murder, genocide, slavery, and countless atrocities and injustices. Fat-shaming hasn't exactly had quite the same impact, historically or in current society. Hence calling someone fat may be mean but it's hardly on the level of calling them a [insert racial slur of choice].

There definitely are! And it depends not only on history but also on geography. In the early 1960s, fat-shaming was a real thing in my country with real victims (no actual casualties, but probably a suicide here and there). A boy in school who didn't quite live up to our expectations of how "a real boy" was supposed to behave would also be taunted mercilessly.
Racism occurred mainly in the fairy tales of the times (as I've described) because everybody was white. You might be teased if your hair was red or if you had freckles, but it didn't go any further than that. It was still stupid, but a fairly victim-less crime - unlike fifty years earlier when Denmark still had colonies with populations consisting mainly of former slaves from Africa, and unlike the late 1960s onwards when you began to hear racial slurs against immigrants from Turkey, Yugoslavia and Pakistan, who stuck out from the pale Danes: "fejlfarver" (off-colored).
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd August 2019 at 08:12 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 09:39 AM   #151
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Do you think you made a point there? I'm still stuck on how your crowd of people yelling racial insults, so much so that children in the group join in without understanding what they are yelling, is evidence of people who aren't racist being unjustly labeled. Or is this the "it's ok to yell racial insults if you really are upset" excuse mentioned?
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Why is this directed at me?

I'm just going on precisely what "your side" is saying...
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If she was just following the crowd, chanting what they were chanting without grasping the racially charged elements then her particular intentions may have just been to heckle an opposing player.
You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 09:49 AM   #152
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 7,151
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.
So we're sticking with the ludicrous claim that this 13 year old yelled out a racist insult all on her own, without knowing what it meant. Right.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.
By "totally separate from" you actually meant to type "such an integral part of that even a guy spinning unbelievable stories about it still has to include", right?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 03:28 PM   #153
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,286
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.
You absolutely do not know this as fact. I had no idea who you were even talking about at first and I read some random stories about these events, I saw you were already giving a biased account of what happened, especially intimating that he was acting in ways which invited these kinds of comments in the first place. For example, he was "making spear-throwing gestures at the audience" and similar things (which again, according to what I read, he didn't do that but once) which would, I guess in your mind, make it okay and non-racist to call him an "ape."


Quote:
And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.
And you know this how?

There was one event in which Goodes called out a heckler who happened to be this girl in question but according to other news events it was not only this crowd but many others which brought consideration of racist name-calling.

I mean, we all get it. You have volunteered to try and find anything at all to try and demonstrate the veracity of theprestige's original claim.

You know what? With this young girl, I'd even maybe agree with your point, to a small degree; taking the girl at her word, even Goodes himself accepted her apology and they apparently even had a face-to-face about it. So while the term 'racist' may not have applied to this girl, once she was called out on her behavior which lead to her being called a racist, she could learn about what racism is and how just mindlessly repeating other people in a crowd isn't ultimately the best sort of behavior one should do in order to demonstrate that one is not actually a racist.

What's more unsurprising is your repeated minimization of the crowds of multiple games behavior as just "booing" kinda critically leaving out the racist parts to make it seem not racist and an overreaction.
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 05:51 PM   #154
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
You absolutely do not know this as fact. I had no idea who you were even talking about at first and I read some random stories about these events, I saw you were already giving a biased account of what happened, especially intimating that he was acting in ways which invited these kinds of comments in the first place. For example, he was "making spear-throwing gestures at the audience" and similar things (which again, according to what I read, he didn't do that but once) which would, I guess in your mind, make it okay and non-racist to call him an "ape."
I have heard of "reading between the lines" but this is ridiculous!

If Goodes had singled out this girl while many others in the crowd were also yelling out "ape" then don't you think that this would have been even more newsworthy?

Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
And you know this how?

< ....... snip ....... >

What's more unsurprising is your repeated minimization of the crowds of multiple games behavior as just "booing" kinda critically leaving out the racist parts to make it seem not racist and an overreaction.
Commentator after commentator said that "anybody who booed Goodes is a racist". Why do you refuse to believe this?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:31 PM   #155
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,286
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have heard of "reading between the lines" but this is ridiculous!

If Goodes had singled out this girl while many others in the crowd were also yelling out "ape" then don't you think that this would have been even more newsworthy?
That was what I read; he singled out one of them. One. Maybe it was because she was closest. Who knows?


Quote:
Commentator after commentator said that "anybody who booed Goodes is a racist". Why do you refuse to believe this?
I haven't read "commentator after commentator" saying that. And considering that there were, in fact, at least several people in the crowds shouting racial slurs in amongst the booing, it makes sense to focus on the racial slurs part.

BTW, what am I reading between which lines?
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book

Last edited by The Norseman; 23rd August 2019 at 07:34 PM.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:20 PM   #156
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That was what I read; he singled out one of them. One. Maybe it was because she was closest. Who knows?
Show us the source that you read that from.

Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
And considering that there were, in fact, at least several people in the crowds shouting racial slurs in amongst the booing, it makes sense to focus on the racial slurs part.
Show us the source that you read that from.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 09:06 PM   #157
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,167
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It is obviously racist to call somebody the N-word. People hurl these words at each other in order to hurt. If they are 13-year-olds, I would first make absolutely sure that they know what they are doing:

1) Why do you want to be hurtful in this situation?

2) Are you aware of the tradition that you join when you use that particular word? I.e. in the case of the N-word, is it actually that person's race that you have a problem with? If it isn't, then why use it? (If it is, it will be a much longer discussion!)



But I think that there's a difference between, on the one hand, somebody yelling it at a soccer match where a 13-year-old who wants to fit in uses the word because apparently it's about humiliating the opposite team - not that that isn't stupid enough in itself - and on the other hand, somebody yelling it at a racist rally. (Portland, Charlottesville)

A 13-year-old may have (actual!) black friends and never consider using the word against them or in any other contexts than the stadium: against the opposite team - sometimes even forgetting about their own team having beloved players of the same color.

It's still the time to have a serious conversation about the racism and attitude, but ... see my questions.



I compare it with fat-shaming because that also has to do with an attempt to humiliate others. You won't see any obese obese footballers, but a 13-year-old with one or more obese friends might still call somebody else fat to demean them. In that situation, it would also be time for a serious talk to find out what is at play here: Does the young person in general look down on somebody for being obese? (Probably not, if he or she has obese friend.) So why use it as a slur against anybody? What would their obese friends think if they heard it?



I think that you would need to have similar conversations if you heard a 13-year-old call somebody a loser (classism) or gay/effeminate (sexism). A 13-year-old may not be totally aware of why they use the slurs, but it's extremely important that they are made aware.


You’ve articulated it well here. A 13 YO CHILD yelling racist stuff is quite different from an adult yelling racist stuff. Did that child really need to be called out in that way, escorted off by police and questioned without her parents?

I think people are losing sight of the fact that we are talking about a child here. Children are naive and don’t always know what they are doing.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 12:37 AM   #158
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,819
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You’ve articulated it well here. A 13 YO CHILD yelling racist stuff is quite different from an adult yelling racist stuff. Did that child really need to be called out in that way, escorted off by police and questioned without her parents?

I think people are losing sight of the fact that we are talking about a child here. Children are naive and don’t always know what they are doing.
Not to mention that "ape" is not in the same category as the N word or "boy" which are well known terms of racial abuse. Prior to this incident, relatively few people would have known that Aboriginals were more sensitive about the word "ape" than they would have been about other abusive words.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 05:43 AM   #159
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 7,151
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not to mention that "ape" is not in the same category as the N word or "boy" which are well known terms of racial abuse. Prior to this incident, relatively few people would have known that Aboriginals were more sensitive about the word "ape" than they would have been about other abusive words.
Keep digging, you're doing great! Who would have known that well known and long used racist invectives were racist? It's obviously the sensitivity of the people on the receiving end of the racial slurs that's the problem! [/sarcasm]
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 06:17 AM   #160
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,363
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.
Except that the excuse for the girl is that she didn't realise (!) that it was a racial insult. This means that presumably she'd seen other people use it at Goodes. The alternative is that she'd see other people of Aboriginal descent being called apes and decided that Goodes was an appropriate target.

Either way, it's hardly evidence that racism didn't play a part.

And if you want a fairy story, how about believing that a convicted paedophile is innocent, when there are multiple other accusations against him? And who happens to have been instrumental in covering up abuse by other Catholic clergy.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.