ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:49 AM   #41
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
My guess is saves even more in better allocating, planning, monitoring, replacing older forms of communication etc. etc.
The mountain of VHS and DVDs we would have by now without streaming would not be pretty either.

In short, I'm saying that it uses not very much energy at all.
Email v "snail" mail. Seems pretty clear.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:50 AM   #42
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,417
Locking up environmentalists. Cutting funding to oversight bodies.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:50 AM   #43
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It might start with "A is A". A thing is what it is.
An automobile is a tool for transporting humans and cargo. When its impact is considered in total, it should certainly be possible to set some reasonable limits on their style, uses, and proliferation.
A house provides shelter. There seems very little "need" for the explosion of exurban "McMansions" when weighed against the resources needed to construct, maintain, and supply them with energy.
A certain caloric intake is necessary to sustain life. Obtaining food in ways that devastate oceanic populations, contaminate water, and produce massive levels of greenhouse gasses seems like something that could be addressed.

It seems that many of the arguments presented regarding the use of renewables to satisfy energy "need" do not consider what that need would be if we decided to act a bit less like ********.

But FREEEEEDOM!!!
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:51 AM   #44
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,274
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Quote:
The central fact of any sensible environmental policy is that, year by year, the environment is improving. Our air and waterways are much healthier than they were a few decades ago.
The above is quoted from GOP.com. Long on generalities, short on specifics, no mention of global warming and climate change.


I think this one part is the essential problem here. You won't get any good answers about solutions to long-term environmental problems, because they fundamentally don't believe there are any long-tern environmental problems.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 05:59 AM   #45
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But FREEEEEDOM!!!
Freedom is actually a reasonable concern.
Right leaning individuals are justified in their suspicions that there is a bit of communism lurking in the solutions to this crisis.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:01 AM   #46
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I think this one part is the essential problem here. You won't get any good answers about solutions to long-term environmental problems, because they fundamentally don't believe there are any long-tern environmental problems.
I think most of them do believe there is a crisis. They do not care for the logical solutions, however, and many of them are choosing to remain in denial until a more palatable solution arises. They are on the come line.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:06 AM   #47
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Freedom is actually a reasonable concern.
Right leaning individuals are justified in their suspicions that there is a bit of communism lurking in the solutions to this crisis.

A bit?

Only communal action will fix this.

That so many people have made their twin, unassailable deities money and freedom (TM) is why I think we're ******.

We need communal action.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:23 AM   #48
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A bit?

Only communal action will fix this.

That so many people have made their twin, unassailable deities money and freedom (TM) is why I think we're ******.

We need communal action.
Easy to call for when one (like myself) is not living in a McMansion and driving two Hummers.
Seems fair to point out that I am asking them to give up more than I even possess. Especially when their wealth will likely insulate them from the worst effects of their lifestyles. Leaving me and mine to drown.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:31 AM   #49
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Easy to call for when one (like myself) is not living in a McMansion and driving two Hummers.
Seems fair to point out that I am asking them to give up more than I even possess. Especially when their wealth will likely insulate them from the worst effects of their lifestyles. Leaving me and mine to drown.

I really don't care about the 'waaaah, it's not fair' argument when it comes to reducing the effects of global warming. I would suggest they get over it.

The alternative is that they can waaah their way to a planet that's almost impossible to live on.

The lifestyles we currently have (in the west) are not sustainable. People are going to have to get by with less*. Those with more at the moment will lose more. I don't really have any sympathy with them.






*Actually, they're not, as no real action will ever be taken regarding global warming)
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:39 AM   #50
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,471
I'm also probably not a Republican, but I have voted in the last few Republican primaries for national office, so I'm rightward of most here.
  • Nuclear Power
  • Some kind of market-driven elimination of single-use containers, like a bottle / can deposit and elimination of clamshell packaging, shrink wrap, etc. I really don't know how; Germany would seem like a model but it turns out that they suck at actually getting the stuff from the bins to the recycling facilities.
  • Fixing urban sprawl somehow, stop subsidizing the fossil fuel industry, fix the infrastructure that we have and need before subsidizing new roads and bridges that encourage people to live 40 miles outside a city center.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:43 AM   #51
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,493
I am not a Republican but I was about 20 years ago and I'm more conservative that a lot of folks here.

I prefer a carbon tax* which would just go into the general fund. This would price the externalities of carbon emissions and thus encourage alternatives.

I would not specifically fund the electricification of transportation. This would only have a net positive impact if the source of electricity wasn't coal, oil or natural gas**. I don't see the point of taxing a coal power plant if you are subsidizing it by funding electric vehicles.

Some sort of refundable tax on single use plastic items.

*a green house gas tax is probably better, tax those farting cows.
**worth noting that fracking has reduced the price of natural gas and shifted US energy production toward natural gas and away from coal. This has reduced our carbon emissions.***
***I typed the ** without the shift key first, does this make me a NAZI?
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:01 AM   #52
Ryan O'Dine
OD’ing on Damitol
 
Ryan O'Dine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually
Posts: 1,795
So we're getting a fair amount of "I'm not a Republican, but..." I appreciate these posts and don't want to discourage them, but am having trouble placing them in the grand scheme of things. Let me ask this: when you go to the polls, how much do these environmental issues weigh in on your choice of candidate? A variation on the ranking question, for whoever wants to answer.
__________________
I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)
Ryan O'Dine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:13 AM   #53
init15jw
New Blood
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Florida
Posts: 1
I think I can answer this. There are certain solutions out there that seem very economical, and logical, and are currently considered right-wing, but don't get enough attention...

1) Obviously nuclear power, but of the molten-salt/thorium variety as currently being built in China. They don't have the capacity to meltdown like traditional reactors. These don't get the attention they deserve presumably because of the reputation of the word "nuclear" and so the fear seems irrational.

2) Carbon Capture (Not clean coal). Like nuclear power, there is a variety of this that doesn't work well and perhaps that is why the technology was dismissed by environmental activists, or perhaps they are against mining entirely, but there was a story on Net Power which created a zero-emission natural gas plant a few years ago with no increase in costs which was frankly amazing. Look up "This Natural Gas Plant Has Achieved Zero Emissions" on youtube for a story on it.

3) Taxes: Rewards vs Punishments. Human beings don't respond to punishment well. They respond to being rewarded. This is at its core the conservative view of taxes, and psychological research proves that it is the best approach to motivate people. There are two approaches to using carbon taxes to positively impact climate change: Punish those currently polluting and using (liberal carbon tax idea) or reward those that create zero-emission power. There have been a few conservative proposals for the latter that offers a tax cut/zero tax liability for those that build no emission energy plants (which include nuclear, hydropower, wind, solar).

4) Trees. Nasa did a study that said planting a trillion more trees across the earth would resolve the climate issue. The landmass required for such an operation would be approximately the size of the United States. Obviously, the US couldn't do that, but the gov could incentivize property owners to fill their land with trees instead of the usual development process of maintaining empty space, grass yards, parking lots, etc. It wouldn't be near a trillion, but if we did several billion, and other countries did the same, it could help - not to mention lower our energy bills by having cooler properties.

5) Reducing car emissions. Like the tax argument in #3 above, the idea of punishing car companies or forcing them to change their practices based on a NEW rule is wrongheaded. A better approach would be to reward car companies with tax incentives to the ones that create and sell a certain number of 50+ mpg cars. This is not something I have seen proposed but would be a republican approach to the problem.

Last edited by init15jw; 22nd August 2019 at 08:23 AM.
init15jw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:17 AM   #54
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
I agree that support for nuclear power doesn't seem to be, from where I'm standing, very popular with the Left, but I don't know enough to the Right's overall stance on nuclear power to know if I can honestly answer the OP's question (well and I'm not a Republican so I obviously can't...)
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:38 AM   #55
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I really don't care about the 'waaaah, it's not fair' argument when it comes to reducing the effects of global warming. I would suggest they get over it.

The alternative is that they can waaah their way to a planet that's almost impossible to live on.

The lifestyles we currently have (in the west) are not sustainable. People are going to have to get by with less*. Those with more at the moment will lose more. I don't really have any sympathy with them.






*Actually, they're not, as no real action will ever be taken regarding global warming)
You do raelise that if you live in "The West" the same attitude could be directed at you, right?

A Bangladeshi living in the street might call you a selfish crybaby for thinking you are "entitled" to live indoors and take an occasional shower at the expense of a livable planet.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:41 AM   #56
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You do raelise that if you live in "The West" the same attitude could be directed at you, right?

A Bangladeshi living in the street might call you a selfish crybaby for thinking you are "entitled" to live indoors and take an occasional shower at the expense of a livable planet.
That's always the problem with all discussions of fairness, they only work if you start the comparison at one arbitrary point.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:50 AM   #57
Ryan O'Dine
OD’ing on Damitol
 
Ryan O'Dine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually
Posts: 1,795
Originally Posted by init15jw View Post
I think I can answer this. There are certain solutions out there that seem very economical, and logical, and are currently considered right-wing, but don't get enough attention...
SNIP...
Welcome to the forum init15jw, and thank you for that meaty post. It makes me realize I took the wrong tack above, so let me try this...
__________________
I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)
Ryan O'Dine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:51 AM   #58
Ryan O'Dine
OD’ing on Damitol
 
Ryan O'Dine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually
Posts: 1,795
Republicans -- we've had a number of posts from "Not Republicans, but was at one time, or currently lean conservative." They've presented numerous policies from that perspective. Do any of them strike you as palatable?
__________________
I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)
Ryan O'Dine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:52 AM   #59
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,060
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's always the problem with all discussions of fairness, they only work if you start the comparison at one arbitrary point.
Or an arbitrary population.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:23 AM   #60
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,895
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Any policies that slow development are net murderous due to tech lag.
You'll be supporting this opinion with evidence?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:24 AM   #61
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You do raelise that if you live in "The West" the same attitude could be directed at you, right?
Yup. And provided it's all a fairly level playing field and mandated I will jack in my car, I will walk to work, I will become vegetarian. I'd stop flying, only I don't fly at all. I will give up hot showers and will use reusable, recyclable everything.

All this I will happily do to save the planet, but not unilaterally.

I'd also give up space but as I currently live in a single room that might not be viable.

There's no 'waaah' for me either. I will give up a lot of what I have, most of what I have, to save the planet. I just won't do unilaterally. I will do it under mandate and I will vote for that mandate.


Quote:
A Bangladeshi living in the street might call you a selfish crybaby for thinking you are "entitled" to live indoors and take an occasional shower at the expense of a livable planet.
They may think that. See above. I will happily come down to their level I need a roof, I need food, I need clothes. I probably need a little more energy in keeping warm than your average Bangladeshi.

I'll happily give up lots of the little (relative to my countrymen) that I have. Damn near all of it. But I'm not doing it unilaterally.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:26 AM   #62
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
So you'll never do it and you know it damn well. Gotcha.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:33 AM   #63
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So you'll never do it and you know it damn well. Gotcha.


Just to check? are you calling me a liar?

Could you expand on your objection? Which bit do you think is unreasonable?


Or would you only believe it if I were actually living a zero carbon lifestyle somewhere?


This is the same bollocks anti tax argument that free market loonies use, that someone isn't sincere unless they send all their cash to the government.




Please don't insult me.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 22nd August 2019 at 09:35 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:37 AM   #64
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Just to check? are you calling me a liar?
I'm saying you're creating a scenario where you'll do something as soon as conditions x, y, and z are met with the complete knowledge that conditions x, y, and will never be met.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:40 AM   #65
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying you're creating a scenario where you'll do something as soon as conditions x, y, and z are met with the complete knowledge that conditions x, y, and will never be met.

The conditions which you say will never be met are literally the conditions for limiting (as much as we can now) global warming and saving the planet.

What you seem to be saying is that there's no hope for the planet at all, is that the case?


Or do you think I should unilaterally and pointlessly lower my lifestyle with a net result of zero just so you think I have credibility?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:42 AM   #66
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The conditions which you say will never be met are literally the conditions for limiting (as much as we can now) global warming and saving the planet.

What you seem to be saying is that there's no hope for the planet at all, is that the case?


Or do you think I should unilaterally and pointlessly lower my lifestyle with a net result of zero just so you think I have credibility?
I'm saying if you really cared about the planet you wouldn't being playing the Prisoner's Dilemma with the third world over it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:42 AM   #67
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Any policies that slow development are net murderous due to tech lag. "Favorite" doesn't enter into it.

Democrats, what are your favorite business-friendly hands off policies to encourage innovation and economic might so you can have an enormous tax base to charge for safety net ameliorations of the rough edges of capitalism, a natural emergent property from freedom?
Universal single payer health care. Businesses would no longer have the sickliest work-force; entrepreneurs could leave their jobs to attempt to innovate without worrying that a week sick destroys their lives. And business owners could almost totally eliminate the expenses that come with being forced to be a health-care provider.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:43 AM   #68
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
1. Nuclear power
2. Nuclear power
3. Nuclear power
I, as a leftist, agree with this
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:50 AM   #69
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying if you really cared about the planet you wouldn't being playing the Prisoner's Dilemma with the third world over it.
What should I be doing?

What would I have to tell you I was doing for you to actually believe what I'm saying?

Those conditions you mention are, as I say, literally what's required to reduce global warming. Clearly you think that's not accurate.


I really want to know what I would have to tell you to make you believe my sincerity? What would my life look like if I were to amend it to satisfy you I was sincere and what actual effect would those lifestyle changes have on the CO2 in the atmosphere.

How can I convince you I mean what I say?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:53 AM   #70
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,852
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What should I be doing?

What would I have to tell you I was doing for you to actually believe what I'm saying?

Those conditions you mention are, as I say, literally what's required to reduce global warming. Clearly you think that's not accurate.


I really want to know what I would have to tell you to make you believe my sincerity? What would my life look like if I were to amend it to satisfy you I was sincere and what actual effect would those lifestyle changes have on the CO2 in the atmosphere.

How can I convince you I mean what I say?
That has nothing to do with your "But I'm not gonna do it until someone makes everyone do it" modifier.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 09:54 AM   #71
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,065
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That has nothing to do with your "But I'm not gonna do it until someone makes everyone do it" modifier.
Yes it does.

I don't mean to be rude, but could you answer one of my questions.

The relevant one to the post you make above is this:


I really want to know what I would have to tell you to make you believe my sincerity? What would my life look like if I were to amend it to satisfy you I was sincere and what actual effect would those lifestyle changes have on the CO2 in the atmosphere.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:55 AM   #72
lomiller
Philosopher
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,954
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How much does it save in terms of travel and delivery of stuff that would otherwise have to travel via road/rail/air?

(I suspect this is an impossible question)
In the US alone some 8 million people work from home saving ~40TWh worth of Gasoline each year from people working at home. That’s the output of ~5 X 1000MW reactors. Estimate place the number of Americans who could work mostly from home as high a 50 million so call it ~25 reactors in the US alone.

This doesn’t include the reduced need to travel for entertainment, goods/services etc. Globally it’s likely the Internet is already a net savings and should be an even larger energy savings going forward.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:41 PM   #73
Venom
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,864
Originally Posted by init15jw View Post
4) Trees. Nasa did a study that said planting a trillion more trees across the earth would resolve the climate issue. The landmass required for such an operation would be approximately the size of the United States. Obviously, the US couldn't do that, but the gov could incentivize property owners to fill their land with trees instead of the usual development process of maintaining empty space, grass yards, parking lots, etc. It wouldn't be near a trillion, but if we did several billion, and other countries did the same, it could help - not to mention lower our energy bills by having cooler properties.
I found it amazing that there is even room for 1 trillion trees on suitable land. But apparently there is.

What kind of trees though? I don't think it can just be any dainty fruit trees it's got to be large, old growth types.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:47 PM   #74
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,029
Planting tress won't be enough.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:52 PM   #75
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 18,847
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Planting tress won't be enough.
No one thing will be enough.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:04 PM   #76
Ryan O'Dine
OD’ing on Damitol
 
Ryan O'Dine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually
Posts: 1,795
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No one thing will be enough.
And no one party can do it alone.
__________________
I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)
Ryan O'Dine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:08 PM   #77
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,739
Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
I've been thinking about this response. For various reasons it makes me suspect you probably don't place environmental issues very high on your list of priorities. But why assume when I can ask -- where do you rank the environment? How much urgency do you feel?
If you are talking about global warming, my stance is pretty simple. Why would anybody oppose efforts to reduce CO2?

But this insane unwillingness on the part of a large segment of the environmental movement to accept nuclear power certainly indicates to me that they are not considering it with sufficient urgency. We are all in a lifeboat, and the shore is a few miles away, and a storm is brewing. And the anti-nukers are insisting that teaspoons would work better at propelling the boat than oars.

The classic insanity is what's going on with Germany. Merkel pledged to shut down all their nuclear power plants by 2022. Guess what's replacing that power? Nope, not renewables, but coal!

Quote:
But critics say it was too ambitious to switch to renewable energy and phase out nuclear power at the same time. With renewables unable to make up the shortfall, Germany has been forced to turn to coal.

“If climate protection really matters to us, the nuclear power plants need to run longer,” Herbert Diess, the VW chief executive, told Tagesspiegel newspaper.

“The priorities are the wrong way round: first we need to get out of coal, and then out of nuclear power.”
Amen to the first part. I think nuclear power needs to be a component of our electric system for the foreseeable future.

Quote:
If my assumption is correct and it's 'Not that much,' what could change your mind? What could you hear that would vault the environment to your number one or number two issue?

I realize you may not be able to answer that question -- heck, it might not even be a fair one, I don't know -- but whatever insights you can provide would be appreciated.
I am contributing to this thread. I try to drive less, ride my bike more for local trips when possible. I turn off lights when I am not in the room. I set my thermostat to 80 degrees in the summer rather than use more air conditioning. I have bothered to read up on nuclear power versus renewables. So it seems a bit silly to ask me why I don't rate environmental issues highly.

IMHO, those who oppose nuclear power are the ones who do not seem to be serious about protecting the environment.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 22nd August 2019 at 01:10 PM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:29 PM   #78
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,125
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
IMHO, those who oppose nuclear power are the ones who do not seem to be serious about protecting the environment.
I tend to think they're unserious, but there are four different things going on when we talk about 'protecting the environment':

- preserving undeveloped land

- conserving natural resources

- reducing pollution

- slowing or reversing global climate change

I think being serious about slowing or reversing global climate change requires a pretty strong commitment to nuclear power now. Even if it means developing undeveloped land and exploiting natural resources. Even though it might mean increasing pollution, in the form of radioactive waste that will probably need to be stored in sub-optimal conditions temporarily, while long-term storage facilities are built. But maybe not.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:41 PM   #79
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,125
Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
I'm glad you joined us, theprestige. Do you have a couple or so favorite environmental initiatives you care to share? Where do you rank the environment on your list of priorities? (Yes, "the environment" means many things so the question is vague, but I'm asking!)
I'm a big fan of mass transit in urban centers.

But you've preemptively taken nuclear power out of the discussion. In my opinion, the rest of the climate change policy debate is rendered entirely moot if we're not going to talk about nuclear power. You're asking me to have a big conversation without addressing the biggest thing we have to talk about.

I'd rank the environment somewhere in the middle of my priorities. I think undeveloped land should be developed slowly, in moderation, and with an eye to getting the most out of the developed land in a sustainable way. I think natural resources should be exploited, as cleanly and efficiently as possible, and as sustainably as possible. I think we should continue our efforts to be more efficient and produce less emissions from all of the work we do, but I think we should also continue to do a lot of work - as much as we can.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 02:09 PM   #80
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,230
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
If you are talking about global warming, my stance is pretty simple. Why would anybody oppose efforts to reduce CO2?

But this insane unwillingness on the part of a large segment of the environmental movement to accept nuclear power certainly indicates to me that they are not considering it with sufficient urgency. We are all in a lifeboat, and the shore is a few miles away, and a storm is brewing. And the anti-nukers are insisting that teaspoons would work better at propelling the boat than oars.

The classic insanity is what's going on with Germany. Merkel pledged to shut down all their nuclear power plants by 2022. Guess what's replacing that power? Nope, not renewables, but coal!



Amen to the first part. I think nuclear power needs to be a component of our electric system for the foreseeable future.



I am contributing to this thread. I try to drive less, ride my bike more for local trips when possible. I turn off lights when I am not in the room. I set my thermostat to 80 degrees in the summer rather than use more air conditioning. I have bothered to read up on nuclear power versus renewables. So it seems a bit silly to ask me why I don't rate environmental issues highly.

IMHO, those who oppose nuclear power are the ones who do not seem to be serious about protecting the environment.
You still haven't explained how nuclear energy is going to solve the issue. You have latched on to this one "solution" so strongly, seemingly because you perceive that your political opponents are against it. Well, most of us aren't. Nuclear energy is something we must consider. However, there are so many other things we must also consider, and you seem completely unwilling to consider any of them.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:05 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.