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Old 25th August 2019, 07:36 AM   #121
Ryan O'Dine
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
OK I am game. Sorry I was late to the thread, but I was actually working hard on your answer in real life. So this won't just be an answer in general terms, but rather a more detailed answer in my very personal case.
... snipped for brevity...
Thank you for your input, Red Baron Farms. I used to contribute regularly to The Nature Conservancy -- a tree-hugging NGO -- and they were big on including all stakeholders in their projects. They often pointed out that in many regions hunters were the most adamant about protecting habitats and species, I suppose for obvious reasons.

I also agree that agricultural practices must certainly play a role in any large scale environmental solutions. I wish it was a hotter topic of discussion at the national level.
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:44 AM   #122
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Looking back over the OP, I see it was a little ambiguous. I think it's generally the case that members of a party don't always walk in lockstep with their party's official platform, so I'm more interested in lists of environmental policies that Republicans want enacted rather than a list of strictly Republican policies.

The underlying question is more or less: What does Republican environmentalism look like in concrete terms (i.e. at the policy level) among its adherents? The discussion about official Republican policy is also revealing (thank you newyorkguy for the links) and I'd personally welcome more commentary on that. It stretches the boundaries of the OP as I envisioned it, but speaks to the fundamental question.
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Old 25th August 2019, 08:21 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The OP was asking "Republicans" what their favorite environmental policies were. You answered nuclear. Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a Republican? Are you a registered Republican?

By the way, an April 2019 poll commissioned by the Green Advocacy Project showed that there's not THAT much difference between people who identify as Democrats and Republicans regarding nuclear power. Fifty percent of Republicans said it was essential or would help. For Democrats it was thirty-two percent. Thirty-four percent of Democrats thought it is harmful versus seventeen percent of Republicans who felt that way. It's basically a swing of less than twenty percent.

Twenty-six percent of Democrats polled answered they weren't sure, while fifteen percent of Republicans weren't sure. One result was interesting, asked if they felt nuclear power "wouldn't help but wouldn't hurt," eight percent of Dems felt that way while eighteen percent of Republicans gave that as their answer, almost as many who think nuclear power is :essential."

Link
That is an interesting poll, but not nearly enough to make nuclear viable. Because lets face it. Nothing wrong with nuclear except bad PR makes the costs to actually build one increase. So as long as the anti-nuclear numbers are that high, nuclear simply costs too much to actually build.
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Old 25th August 2019, 10:23 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Looking back over the OP, I see it was a little ambiguous. I think it's generally the case that members of a party don't always walk in lockstep with their party's official platform, so I'm more interested in lists of environmental policies that Republicans want enacted rather than a list of strictly Republican policies.
There is no really good bill for Republicans to support. The closest would be the bipartisan Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act. But it has several fatal flaws. Just rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking Titanic. I have discussed those flaws and how they might be fixed in a different thread. But basically it costs too much for too low a level of potential efficacy.

And that's best case scenario. In a worse case scenario it might actually cause worse harm by collapsing the entire economy, which would cause a huge environmental backlash.

With a few relatively minor changes it would decrease the cost by probably close to half to as much as net zero and at least double or more the efficacy.

But I talked to the political aides involved, and they don't like it because they want the legislation to be "durable". ie they never want the job completed and the EICDA revoked at some later date. They want the tax to be permanent and it is designed to last forever by never really fixing AGW.....just reducing the worst of its impacts. The changes I suggested would fix the problem in a few short decades. Then we actually need to repeal/restructure the EIDCA or risk pulling too much CO2 out. They absolutely don't want that. Not durable enough.

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
The underlying question is more or less: What does Republican environmentalism look like in concrete terms (i.e. at the policy level) among its adherents? The discussion about official Republican policy is also revealing (thank you newyorkguy for the links) and I'd personally welcome more commentary on that. It stretches the boundaries of the OP as I envisioned it, but speaks to the fundamental question.

This is why I developed my business plan designed to pick up where governments and NGOs fall short. The market will react much quicker. This is the standard Republican stance whenever possible. Let capitalism resolve the issue.

In this case since this is an issue regarding the "commons", there is a huge conflict on what the proper role of government regulation should be. Clearly the commons does fall under governments mandate for even the most fiscally conservative.[1] This is why the neoliberals controlling the party currently developed the denialist merchants of doubt strategy to obfuscate and delay. Because as soon as it really is clear to all this is a commons issue, we must act. Failure to act at that point pits them as a clear and present danger to the United States, and traitors. So they are delaying action as long as they can, then at some future date that can all claim they finally agree with the consensus. OOPS sorry, but now we will act.
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Old 25th August 2019, 10:38 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But nuclear for power generation isn't a Republican environmental policy. So why bring it up in this thread about republican environmental policies?
The OP did not ask for Republican environmental policies. It asked Republicans (as individuals) what their favorite environmental policies are.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The OP did not ask for Republican environmental policies. It asked Republicans (as individuals) what their favorite environmental policies are.
And I took it to mean further, Republicans or Republican-adjacents. I tend to register Republican when it matters, but I'm not really a GOP loyalist.
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:35 PM   #127
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I’m more Republican than Democrat so:

Climate change is an upper-level priority for me. For example, I have driven hybrids and EVs ever since the Prius came out. Next year, we are going to put solar panels (maybe those Tesla roof tiles? Still evaluating) up. When I have to buy a new appliance, it’s energy consumption is a huge factor in the decision.

But I don’t think it is a big priority for most people and it certainly isn’t for most politicians. The only way to get people to make the kinds of major changes necessary is to incentivize the behavior you want. Mandates and such aren’t effective. My incentive was saving money. So, obviously I would be a huge proponent of incentivizing people, companies, cities, etc to: go solar, drive EVs, plant trees, use mass transit, build nuclear reactors, invest in research and development, etc. Incentives are policy #1.

Beyond that, I’m not sure that anything the government does will work very well in a free society.
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Old 25th August 2019, 09:14 PM   #128
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:09 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It is the most stable form of energy, the one that we can always rely on. The renewables, like wind, solar, and hydroelectric, are unreliable; they need wind, sunny days and rain respectively in order to work. Solar farms also require a vastly larger amount of land than do nuclear power plants.

If you want to reduce emissions without sending the economy into a complete tailspin, nuclear power is the only answer.
Work is being done on Carbon Capture for non renewables
Wave power and hydroelectric power are also renewable alternatives.

There are probably more other than wind and sunlight.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:17 AM   #130
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I read a magazine article while waiting for my hair to get a trim that reported China wants to be the world leader in renewable energy innovation and supply.

What I don't understand about conservatives is that they are missing this seemingly huge opportunity. This industry surely has to be a massive global market, much of it untapped.

I don't think fir a second most conservative global warming deniers really think there is no problem. I think they hate the fact it appears to be an issue being taken up by (supposedly) the left and I think many conservatives think short term economically (fast buck) who lack imagination and longer term strategic thinking.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:48 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
I read a magazine article while waiting for my hair to get a trim that reported China wants to be the world leader in renewable energy innovation and supply.

What I don't understand about conservatives is that they are missing this seemingly huge opportunity. This industry surely has to be a massive global market, much of it untapped.
Which I am certain that American businesses are targeting even as we speak. If there's a bazillion bucks to be made somewhere, you can bet that MBAs are pursuing it diligently.
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Old 26th August 2019, 03:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Which I am certain that American businesses are targeting even as we speak. If there's a bazillion bucks to be made somewhere, you can bet that MBAs are pursuing it diligently.

"...even if they are being hampered by my party of choice, the Republicans"



Don't forget and leave that part out! LOL!
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Old 26th August 2019, 04:56 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
What I don't understand about conservatives is that they are missing this seemingly huge opportunity. This industry surely has to be a massive global market, much of it untapped.
Do you really not understand it, or are you saying so rhetorically? The teal deer is they're happy to set aside ideology when their monied interests need protection.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:04 AM   #134
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In my opinion one of the worst mistakes conservatives and Republicans make is thinking that government solutions do not work in a free society. The 'free' society we live in was shaped by having government as a full partner. Only government represents and protects the needs and desires of 'the people.' From sanitation to education. From the highway system to health care. The Republican's own website states, "Our air and waterways are much healthier than they were a few decades ago." Do they really think that happened because industry suddenly decided it was time to clean things up? This improvement is in large part due to government intervention, which private industry mostly fought every step of the way.

The most recent example of the critical role government plays was the government bailout of the financial system following the 2008 financial meltdown. Major financial institutions were on the brink of collapse. But they were too big to fail. And only the federal government was big enough to keep them afloat. Our society was able to avoid the dire consequences of a collapsed financial system, which would have caused great suffering for the average person, largely because the federal government stepped in and said, "We can't let this happen."
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:04 PM   #135
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The "hockey stick" graph used to support the climate change hoax has been determined to be fraud in a Canadian court because the author couldn't or wouldn't provide anything that supported it to the judge. Now he has to pay the legal expenses of the guy he sued for slander. LOL. Not any coverage of this in fake news, but there wouldn't be, would there...

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...nts_costs.html
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:18 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "hockey stick" graph used to support the climate change hoax has been determined to be fraud in a Canadian court because the author couldn't or wouldn't provide anything that supported it to the judge. Now he has to pay the legal expenses of the guy he sued for slander. LOL. Not any coverage of this in fake news, but there wouldn't be, would there...

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...nts_costs.html

sssssh....let it go BrooklynBaby. global warming is real.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:53 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post

sssssh....let it go BrooklynBaby. global warming is real.
It's a hoax and even Obama knows it, having bought a beachfront mansion on the Atlantic in Martha's Vineyard with complete disregard for the "rising seas" he talked about for eight years. The proof is so strong that the left-wing elites who are the most vocal about the climate change hoax don't practice what they preach, there is no valid argument to the contrary. In fact, one could say the louder they are about it, the higher their "carbon footprint". The biggest tell is they never mention China. Talking about "global warming" without mentioning China is like talking about the Cold War without mentioning the Soviet Union/Russia.
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:21 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
... inflammatory sloganeering snipped...

The biggest tell is they never mention China. Talking about "global warming" without mentioning China is like talking about the Cold War without mentioning the Soviet Union/Russia.
Actually China is very much part of the dialog.
Soil Carbon Sequestration Potential for “Grain for Green” Project in Loess Plateau, China

“Grain for Green” driven land use change and carbon sequestration on the Loess Plateau, China

Gee, looks to me like China is right in the thick of it.

Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth, NASA Study Shows

Wow according to the above even India is in a leading position. Embarrassing enough for the United States to be beaten by China, but to be beaten by China AND India too? That's downright humiliating.

But at least we can be happy that when China and India started taking these measures to mitigate AGW, they damaged and slowed down their economies quite a bit, giving the US a relative competitive edge ...right?

Restoring China's Loess Plateau

Wait OMG ... this actually doubled the locals incomes! Increased employment, improved food production, repaired the hydrological cycles, boosted both economies and the ecology at the same time!

Looks like you have some explaining to do BrooklynBaby. Why exactly do you oppose mitigating AGW again? What purpose to your propaganda calling it a hoax? Because it looks to me like you are siding with those bent on destroying this great country and that YOU indeed are the clear and present danger who is a traitor to not only the US but all humanity!

Speak up and be good about it. What possible benefit to your position?

From this conservative Republican's view, everything you stand for is destroying this country. This is not the way to Make America Great Again.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:52 AM   #139
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This is from a news article published in 2017 by the Vineyard Gazette, the local newspaper on Martha's Vineyard.
Quote:
Rising seas will pose a significant threat to the areas around Oak Bluffs Harbor, Crystal Lake, the Martha’s Vineyard Hospital and other locations in Oak Bluffs, according to a detailed report and adaptation plan prepared for the town. The sea level in Oak Bluffs will increase up to two thirds of a foot by 2030, and up to 3.39 feet by 2070, according to the report, which notes a rapid increase in global mean sea level in the last century, and an even sharper increase projected for the future as a result of global warming caused by greenhouse gas emissions. Link
An eight inch rise within ten years is very sobering news but I'm sure Barack Obama is well aware of this. He probably hopes that some of the worst effects can be avoided by ongoing efforts to reduce the impact. At any rate, his estate is well back from the ocean front and at a higher elevation.

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Old 27th August 2019, 05:09 AM   #140
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Letting the market set the premiums for insuring shore properties would solve most problems from rising sea levels.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:11 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Wind, sunny days, and rain are all pretty abundant. Might you mean that all these sources need "reliable storage" instead?
The fact that they are not constant is the reason why they are not reliable.

Well, hydro's reliable. We're all-hydro up here and we don't have issues with it.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:14 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
I've been thinking about this response. For various reasons it makes me suspect you probably don't place environmental issues very high on your list of priorities. But why assume when I can ask -- where do you rank the environment? How much urgency do you feel?
Don't know why you'd say that. Nuke is probably the most environmentally friendly option, all things considered.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:18 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And again you go on a partisan rant because you dislike the "environmentalists". Try dropping the chip on your shoulder for a bit and try to answer the question I keep posing to you: How will nuclear energy solve climate change? It isn't just a question of energy.
Did you even read his post?
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:40 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Actually China is very much part of the dialog.
Soil Carbon Sequestration Potential for “Grain for Green” Project in Loess Plateau, China

“Grain for Green” driven land use change and carbon sequestration on the Loess Plateau, China

Gee, looks to me like China is right in the thick of it.

Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth, NASA Study Shows

Wow according to the above even India is in a leading position. Embarrassing enough for the United States to be beaten by China, but to be beaten by China AND India too? That's downright humiliating.

But at least we can be happy that when China and India started taking these measures to mitigate AGW, they damaged and slowed down their economies quite a bit, giving the US a relative competitive edge ...right?

Restoring China's Loess Plateau

Wait OMG ... this actually doubled the locals incomes! Increased employment, improved food production, repaired the hydrological cycles, boosted both economies and the ecology at the same time!

Looks like you have some explaining to do BrooklynBaby. Why exactly do you oppose mitigating AGW again? What purpose to your propaganda calling it a hoax? Because it looks to me like you are siding with those bent on destroying this great country and that YOU indeed are the clear and present danger who is a traitor to not only the US but all humanity!

Speak up and be good about it. What possible benefit to your position?

From this conservative Republican's view, everything you stand for is destroying this country. This is not the way to Make America Great Again.
A "traitor to the U.S. and all humanity"? LOL. The hatred exhibited in this forum surpasses just about anything one can find anywhere, and that is the reason I don't show up here often. The "hockey stick"has been proved to be a hoax. All of Al Gore's predictions have been wrong. In fact, the opposite of what he said about more frequent storms of higher intensity actually happened. And the left is NOT going after China, they are going after plastic straws here as a response to China dumping their garbage in the ocean. Dem hero and commie Bernie Sanders wants to nationalize (steal) the entire energy sector of the economy to stop the climate change hoax. You know, because it worked so well in Venezuela, at least for those whose preferred cuisine is zoo animals. AOC's guru admitted that the GND was just a mechanism to implement socialism in the U.S., and that is what the climate change/global warming hoax has always been about, a subterfuge to implement socialism.

Y'all be good now.
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:41 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
A "traitor to the U.S. and all humanity"? LOL. The hatred exhibited in this forum surpasses just about anything one can find anywhere, and that is the reason I don't show up here often.
Hate is a strong word. I would classify this as anger and frustration being vented, not hate. And just the very idea you would laugh at attempts to save the biosphere make me possibly even more angry. This is a very serious issue, and it's not for myself that any of this is said or done. Its for future generations. If we don’t take action, the collapse of our civilizations and the extinction of much of the natural world is on the horizon. This is not something to laugh about.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "hockey stick"has been proved to be a hoax.
More sloganeering? Wishing something were true does not make it true.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
All of Al Gore's predictions have been wrong.
Al Gore is not a scientist and the movie he funded did indeed get quite a bit of the science wrong by including whackos like
Guy McPherson. And what? It is not science you object to but rather a propaganda movie made by a politician. Are you so simpleminded as to think AGW doesn't exist at all just because Al Gore's version was highly exaggerated?

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
In fact, the opposite of what he said about more frequent storms of higher intensity actually happened. And the left is NOT going after China, they are going after plastic straws here as a response to China dumping their garbage in the ocean. Dem hero and commie Bernie Sanders wants to nationalize (steal) the entire energy sector of the economy to stop the climate change hoax. You know, because it worked so well in Venezuela, at least for those whose preferred cuisine is zoo animals. AOC's guru admitted that the GND was just a mechanism to implement socialism in the U.S., and that is what the climate change/global warming hoax has always been about, a subterfuge to implement socialism.

Y'all be good now.
OK So you managed to understand how liberals are misusing AGW so as to further a political agenda completely unrelated to climate. Good on you.

What you need to understand though, as long as there is no conservative mitigation plan backed by Republicans, it almost guarantees that one day in the future this mitigation strategy of the left will indeed win. We all lose if that happens.

That's why it is so very important to be very clear that while Al Gores vision of the future may have indeed been a hoax, or at least very very negatively biased. This however does not reflect on the scientific basis for AGW nor AGW mitigation one bit. I have already discussed how ridiculous AOCs thoughts on the subject have been.

So lets get past the idiots and discuss what sane conservative measures can be taken.
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:56 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Don't know why you'd say that. Nuke is probably the most environmentally friendly option, all things considered.
That wasn't a knock against nuclear power, it was a knock against nuclear as the one and only arrow in Brainster's quiver. He since clarified his sense of urgency, and I'm satisfied with his response.
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "hockey stick" graph used to support the climate change hoax has been determined to be fraud in a Canadian court because the author couldn't or wouldn't provide anything that supported it to the judge. Now he has to pay the legal expenses of the guy he sued for slander. LOL. Not any coverage of this in fake news, but there wouldn't be, would there...

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...nts_costs.html
Setting aside the issue of global warming, what are a few environmental policies you’d like to see implemented, BrooklynBaby? How about just a couple?
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Old 27th August 2019, 11:17 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did you even read his post?
Pretty obviously not. He saw the word environmentalists and didn't see the adjectives that must be applied to that word like "noble, brave, selfless," and decided that it was all anti-environmentalism.
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Old 27th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post

sssssh....let it go BrooklynBaby. global warming is real.
Relevant XKCD.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:38 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The fact that they are not constant is the reason why they are not reliable.



Well, hydro's reliable. We're all-hydro up here and we don't have issues with it.
The issues with hydro are preservation of undeveloped land, and conservation of natural resources.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:06 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The issues with hydro are preservation of undeveloped land, and conservation of natural resources.
Uganda went a different route with Hydro after they began to rebuild from the civil war.

Lots and lots of much smaller scale hydroelectric on the scale of the old "mill pond" idea. Seems to have worked out quite nicely for them. They have gone from basically nothing to electrifying nearly the whole country from scratch at pennies on the dollar and none of those side effects you mentioned.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:16 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Uganda went a different route with Hydro after they began to rebuild from the civil war.

Lots and lots of much smaller scale hydroelectric on the scale of the old "mill pond" idea. Seems to have worked out quite nicely for them. They have gone from basically nothing to electrifying nearly the whole country from scratch at pennies on the dollar and none of those side effects you mentioned.
In a dryer area this can also have a positive secondary effect of creating rich micro biomes. I've read that Israel and Australia have both benefitted from creating numbers of small ponds and weirs, capturing water during short intense rainy periods.
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