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Old 5th December 2017, 03:13 PM   #641
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Stanford Professor of Law Michelle Dauber (and friend of the victim's family) implied that defense attorney Scott Greenfield libeled her on twitter, with respect to this case. In the comments section, someone points out that Dauber changed a portion of an email that was supposedly sent to her. Her behavior seems a bit over the top.
Sorry, that article lost me when it started playing whataboutism regarding Al Franken and Weinstein. It was already teetering with its smug tone but I didn't continue from there. Not wasting my time.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:36 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't understand this guy's legal strategy at all. If she was drunk, she couldn't give consent. By acknowledging that she was drunk (if, in fact, she was) he is supporting the rape charges. The jury at his last trial heard all the evidence and convicted him of three felonies. It's hard to imagine how he could be acquitted at a second trial, even if he gets one.
Obviosuly I have not read the brief but you can give consent when you are drunk but not when you are passed out drunk. So those 60 pages need to devote themselves to proving that she wasn't passed out drunk. Seems hard to do.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:09 PM   #643
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I've spent 10 minutes looking through this thread and have yet to see why so many people on here call the scumbag a rapist

The rape charges were dropped

Am I missing something?

Edit: Even to the point of him apparently being in a rapists text book
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:27 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I've spent 10 minutes looking through this thread and have yet to see why so many people on here call the scumbag a rapist

The rape charges were dropped

Am I missing something?

Edit: Even to the point of him apparently being in a rapists text book
He was convicted of the following...

* Intent to commit rape of an intoxicated/unconscious person
* Penetration of an intoxicated person
* Penetration of an unconscious person

Unless you want to change the definition of Rape to be something other than the sexual penetration of a nonconsenting person, those last two are without doubt, rape.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:38 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
He was convicted of the following...

* Intent to commit rape of an intoxicated/unconscious person
* Penetration of an intoxicated person
* Penetration of an unconscious person

Unless you want to change the definition of Rape to be something other than the sexual penetration of a nonconsenting person, those last two are without doubt, rape.
Why bother? At my forum settings, there are about 40 posts per page and 16+ pages when the person to whom you're responding posted. Spending "10 minutes looking through this thread" means around 20 seconds spent per page translating to about 0.5 seconds per post. In other words, he can't be serious about wanting to get information from this thread or regarding its topic.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:40 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
He was convicted of the following...

* Intent to commit rape of an intoxicated/unconscious person
* Penetration of an intoxicated person
* Penetration of an unconscious person

Unless you want to change the definition of Rape to be something other than the sexual penetration of a nonconsenting person, those last two are without doubt, rape.
Then humour me please and explain why dropped the "rape charges"
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:43 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
He was convicted of the following...

* Intent to commit rape of an intoxicated/unconscious person
* Penetration of an intoxicated person
* Penetration of an unconscious person


Unless you want to change the definition of Rape to be something other than the sexual penetration of a nonconsenting person, those last two are without doubt, rape.
No. California rape law requires an act of sexual intercourse i.e. penetration by his little Brock.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:04 PM   #648
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this textbook came up here recently

Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Why bother? At my forum settings, there are about 40 posts per page and 16+ pages when the person to whom you're responding posted. Spending "10 minutes looking through this thread" means around 20 seconds spent per page translating to about 0.5 seconds per post. In other words, he can't be serious about wanting to get information from this thread or regarding its topic.
link "The two dropped charges were rape of an intoxicated person and rape of an unconscious person. They were let go because, according to California law at the time of Turner’s offenses, a rape could only be committed if a penis was used to penetrate a person without consent, and there was no DNA evidence to suggest that had occurred Turner’s case."

Before you point to someone else's lack of seriousness, maybe you should remember that Google is your friend. Cullennz and Noztradamus are correct.
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Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 5th December 2017 at 08:36 PM. Reason: edited to note Noztradamus's post
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:16 PM   #649
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Greenfield and Dauber

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Sorry, that article lost me when it started playing whataboutism regarding Al Franken and Weinstein. It was already teetering with its smug tone but I didn't continue from there. Not wasting my time.
A brief aside about Weinstein and Franken is whataboutism? That is a very...fanciful...reading of the article in question. Regarding Professor Dauber Scott Greenfield wrote, "This isn’t rational behavior. This is some seriously sick behavior. And Michelle Dauber teaches law school. She and her mob can think the sentence imposed on Turner was too lenient all she wants, but her actions, as a lawprof, have reached, and surpassed, a level of obsession that should strike fear in every academic. This isn’t normal, sane behavior. This is your colleague. This is the person teaching law students. This is deeply disturbed." Greenfield is irascible and doesn't suffer fools gladly, but I'd hire him in a New York minute if I needed a defense attorney. As for Dauber, her sentencing arguments were of dubious merit.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:05 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
link "The two dropped charges were rape of an intoxicated person and rape of an unconscious person. They were let go because, according to California law at the time of Turner’s offenses, a rape could only be committed if a penis was used to penetrate a person without consent, and there was no DNA evidence to suggest that had occurred Turner’s case."

Before you point to someone else's lack of seriousness, maybe you should remember that Google is your friend. Cullennz and Noztradamus are correct.
I didn't say that anyone was incorrect. I said someone should not be taken seriously when they say they looked through a 16-page for 10 minutes and can't figure out something that's been covered.

So, before you get all condescending, maybe you should read posts for comprehension.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:57 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
A brief aside about Weinstein and Franken is whataboutism?
Yes. It is.

Besides, this thread is not about Dauber.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:29 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
No. California rape law requires an act of sexual intercourse i.e. penetration by his little Brock.
Required, it's been updated, but California Law isn't the gospel as to if it was Rape, it was, even if California Laws were behind those of the rest of the modern world, including Federal Law. He got off the charges simply because California was behind in it's Law, that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't Rape.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:16 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I didn't say that anyone was incorrect. I said someone should not be taken seriously when they say they looked through a 16-page for 10 minutes and can't figure out something that's been covered.

So, before you get all condescending, maybe you should read posts for comprehension.
Maybe I should have clarified I saw the charges were dropped and ust couldn't see anything denying this, after a 10 minute look.

Apologies for being able to sort through irrelevant things to that aim that quickly.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:18 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Required, it's been updated, but California Law isn't the gospel as to if it was Rape, it was, even if California Laws were behind those of the rest of the modern world, including Federal Law. He got off the charges simply because California was behind in it's Law, that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't Rape.
The UK is behind the modern world?
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:42 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Obviosuly I have not read the brief but you can give consent when you are drunk but not when you are passed out drunk. So those 60 pages need to devote themselves to proving that she wasn't passed out drunk. Seems hard to do.
I don't think that's the case. You can give consent when you have been drinking, but if you are drunk to the point that your judgment is impaired, you can't give consent, even if you're not passed out and even if the person jumping on you wants to believe you did. The degree of impairment might be a question for the jury.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/maryville
http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/pub_prosecut...al_assault.pdf
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:40 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I didn't say that anyone was incorrect. I said someone should not be taken seriously when they say they looked through a 16-page for 10 minutes and can't figure out something that's been covered.

So, before you get all condescending, maybe you should read posts for comprehension.
Pro tip: if you want to be taken seriously, don't do silly "calculations."
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:52 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Whenever I see one of these oh poor me things about how a person's life will never be the same, never prosperous and happy go lucky and living his dreams, I have to stop and say "wait a minute." The world is full of people who never got to live their dreams, never got beyond menial work and low income lives on the brink of crisis, but how often do we hear anyone say "oh poor you" to the supermarket checkout clerk or the guy stocking shelves or the waitress or the guy cleaning the urinals. They live. They manage. And no doubt many complain. But why the hell should anyone moan when a person who had much more and threw it away ends up among those who never had more and never threw anything away.

I remember thinking the same thing when people got all teary eyed about Tonya Harding not being able to make zillions of bucks as a skater any more. Oh boo hoo.

I don't think anyone should harass anyone and I still have enough of my old Christian upbringing lurking somewhere to believe that we should not treat bad people as badly as they would treat others, but I'm with Isissxn in being unable to muster up much caring this time around.
The thing is, I lived in that community where Turner is from for almost 10 years (loved it there), and probably interacted with his family at some point since my son is near his age. I am sure that with his father's connections, he will have little trouble doing just fine in life. While people in the community will most likely shun him, I am sure is father knows enough people in the surrounding area who will turn a blind eye.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:57 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
No. California rape law requires an act of sexual intercourse i.e. penetration by his little Brock.
Exactly we need to stop all communication across state lines as we can each only refer to things that are legally rape in their own state as rape. Even if the word rape is never in the name of the actual charged brought in rape cases.
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:01 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think that's the case. You can give consent when you have been drinking, but if you are drunk to the point that your judgment is impaired, you can't give consent, even if you're not passed out and even if the person jumping on you wants to believe you did. The degree of impairment might be a question for the jury.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/maryville
http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/pub_prosecut...al_assault.pdf
The judgement being impaired is pretty legally uncommon. But the idea is more often that being incapacitated by alcohol does not mean one needs to be fully unconscious. Being responsive to stimuli but not aware of what is going on for example is still rape.
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Old 6th December 2017, 07:35 AM   #660
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Dauber's roles in this case

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Yes. It is.

Besides, this thread is not about Dauber.
One of my links showed how Professor Dauber's analysis of this case was inconsistent with her previous statements. She has led the effort to recall Judge Persky. IIRC she was the person who made Turner's father's statement public, the statement that began this thread. If you are trying to argue that Professor Dauber's words and actions are off topic, good luck with that.
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Old 6th December 2017, 08:41 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
One of my links showed how Professor Dauber's
Again, this thread is not about Dauber.
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:22 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we need to stop all communication across state lines as we can each only refer to things that are legally rape in their own state as rape. Even if the word rape is never in the name of the actual charged brought in rape cases.
Nice hyperbole

It usually just works where people get called things they are convicted of

Or do you think for instance that any teenager who slept with his 16 year old girlfriend in a State where the AoC is 16 should be automatically shunned and labelled a rapist, child molester if they happen to enter a State where the age of consent is 17 or 18?
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:29 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Nice hyperbole

It usually just works where people get called things they are convicted of

Or do you think for instance that any teenager who slept with his 16 year old girlfriend in a State where the AoC is 16 should be automatically shunned and labelled a rapist, child molester if they happen to enter a State where the age of consent is 17 or 18?
And we are actually talking about if it is better or worse to have a penis or pine needles shoved up inside of you. And we can get things like rape is only penis in vagina sex therefore prison rape is a contradiction in terms because with out both sets of genitals it can not be rape.
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:46 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And we are actually talking about if it is better or worse to have a penis or pine needles shoved up inside of you. And we can get things like rape is only penis in vagina sex therefore prison rape is a contradiction in terms because with out both sets of genitals it can not be rape.
You might be talking about what is better or worse

I don't see anyone else doing it

In some places. Like other states, many other countries (For instance the UK and here), there are usually two crimes.

Rape - Unwanted Penetration with genitalia

Unwanted or illegal penetration with a foreign object (the wording differs depending on place)


In some places the sentencing ranges aren't even that different

If someone gets convicted of the second they ain't a rapist, no matter how much you want it to be
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:37 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You might be talking about what is better or worse

I don't see anyone else doing it

In some places. Like other states, many other countries (For instance the UK and here), there are usually two crimes.

Rape - Unwanted Penetration with genitalia

Unwanted or illegal penetration with a foreign object (the wording differs depending on place)


In some places the sentencing ranges aren't even that different

If someone gets convicted of the second they ain't a rapist, no matter how much you want it to be
And of course it means that unless you were penetrated it wasn't rape, meaning that of course it is physically impossible for a woman to rape a man. No matter what those silly consent ideas say. It is all about who gets penetrated, and not consenting to penetrating someone else is totally legal or something.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:38 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course it means that unless you were penetrated it wasn't rape, meaning that of course it is physically impossible for a woman to rape a man. No matter what those silly consent ideas say. It is all about who gets penetrated, and not consenting to penetrating someone else is totally legal or something.
That isn't what Cullenz is saying. He's pointing out that in many places, there are specific definitions and other crimes are serious sexual assault

However - I don't see what is wrong with a definition of non-consensual sexual intercourse.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:08 PM   #667
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I really shouldn't have to do this:

Definition of rape
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
3 : an outrageous violation
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:18 PM   #668
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The best example yet

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Again, this thread is not about Dauber.
I may have encountered a more perfect example of fecklessness than your response above at some point, but right now I cannot think of one. A tip of the hat.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:27 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I really shouldn't have to do this:

Definition of rape
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
3 : an outrageous violation
If you were just going by the US's MW dictionary they have rather insularly and stupidly put this, yes

But then they a presumably just going by the US's federal law definition

Oxfords says this

"The crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will.
‘he denied two charges of rape’"


Which is slightly more realistic as it doesn't presume to designate one groups definition of "sexual intercourse" as overuleing everyone elses like the MW does
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:59 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Required, it's been updated, but California Law isn't the gospel as to if it was Rape, it was, even if California Laws were behind those of the rest of the modern world, including Federal Law. He got off the charges simply because California was behind in it's Law, that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't Rape.
Thank you, Andrea Dworkin
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:01 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we need to stop all communication across state lines as we can each only refer to things that are legally rape in their own state as rape. Even if the word rape is never in the name of the actual charged brought in rape cases.
I've asked before with no results, but here I go again: Do you ever post non straw man arguments?
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:02 PM   #672
Noztradamus
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we need to stop all communication across state lines as we can each only refer to things that are legally rape in their own state as rape. Even if the word rape is never in the name of the actual charged brought in rape cases.
The California definition of what is rape, is what matters concerning on what Brock Turner can be convicted of in Californian courts for what he did in California.
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:03 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And we are actually talking about if it is better or worse to have a penis or pine needles shoved up inside of you. And we can get things like rape is only penis in vagina sex therefore prison rape is a contradiction in terms because with out both sets of genitals it can not be rape.
I've asked before with no results, but here I go again: Do you ever post non straw man arguments?
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:18 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
The California definition of what is rape, is what matters concerning on what Brock Turner can be convicted of in Californian courts for what he did in California.
Yes and that determines if someone should or should not be called a rapist. Like "raping" your spouse in the 70s wasn't really rape and can not be called rape because it was legal at the time. And anyone who did so would by definition not be a rapist. They were your spouse do they could not legally refuse you, ergo not a rapist.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:19 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I've asked before with no results, but here I go again: Do you ever post non straw man arguments?
I am just taking the positions stated to their logical conclusion.
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:00 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I may have encountered a more perfect example of fecklessness than your response above at some point, but right now I cannot think of one. A tip of the hat.
I don't know why you kept bringing her up. She is a commenter on this case, and may have done a few important things regarding it. But honestly I had heard of this case without her 'leading' anything along with tons of other people and she really doesn't show up to me any more than the dozens of other lawyers and commenters on this case. So you are building her up as some kind of 'leader' of the 'Brock is bad person' movement so that you can poison the well. The first article you posted quite obviously had some serious axe to grind and went straight-on whataboutism (yes, this *is* what that was) you dismissed it went into even more well poisoning. This case has enough to discuss.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:50 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you were just going by the US's MW dictionary they have rather insularly and stupidly put this, yes

But then they a presumably just going by the US's federal law definition

Oxfords says this

"The crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will.
‘he denied two charges of rape’"


Which is slightly more realistic as it doesn't presume to designate one groups definition of "sexual intercourse" as overuleing everyone elses like the MW does
Yes and Bill Clinton didn't have Sexual Relations with that woman, he just used a cigar and got a blow job....
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:04 AM   #678
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In case you weren't aware, the POS attempted to get his conviction overturned on the following grounds:

Quote:
During a Tuesday hearing before a three-judge panel in California's 6th District Court of Appeal, Turner's attorney, Eric Multhaup, argued that the jury's verdict should be overturned because of lack of evidence, Palo Alto Online reported.

Multhaup said that Turner had only engaged in "sexual outercourse" with the 21-year-old victim — identified as Emily Doe — which did not demonstrate an intent to commit rape.

He described outercourse as a "version of safe sex" that does not involve penile contact and involves people being fully clothed.
Never mind the fact that the victim found debris jammed inside her vagina from his fingers penetrating her, never mind that she was incapable of consenting to ANYTHING, never mind that he was dry humping her while forcing his filthy fingers inside of her... apparently in this lawyer's mind, that only amounts to some BS indication of "outercourse", whatever the **** that is.

Thankfully, the appeals court did not buy this line of crap and has denied his appeal.

Quote:
"Defendant argues none of his convictions is supported by sufficient evidence," the court said in an opinion released Wednesday. "That argument lacks merit."

The opinion recounted the evidence against Turner, which included statements from two eyewitnesses. The graduate students had been heading to the party when they saw Turner on top of the victim, who wasn't moving.

"What the **** are you doing? She’s unconscious,” one of the graduate students yelled, according to the opinion. Turner then attempted to run away, and one of the graduate students tackled him. They held him until campus police arrived.

Other evidence included statements from paramedics, who found the victim unconscious, as well as hospital staff who reviewed abrasions on her body and her blood alcohol content. Turner also admitted to a detective that he had undressed her and penetrated her — though he claimed she was able to consent.

The fact that Turner's pants remained on also didn't mean he wasn't planning on raping the victim, the appeals court ruled.

"While it is true that defendant did not expose himself, he was interrupted," the court said. "Jurors reasonably could have inferred from the evidence described above that, if the graduate students had not stopped defendant, he would have exposed himself and raped [the victim]."
So he remains on the sex offender registry for the rest of his life. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 4th September 2019, 02:25 PM   #679
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/04/us/br...doe/index.html
Quote:
Her name is not "Emily Doe." It is not "unconscious, intoxicated woman." Nor is it "victim of Stanford University swimmer Brock Turner."
It's Chanel Miller.
For the first time since her 2015 rape, she is telling her story not from behind a curtain of anonymity, but as herself -- attributed and for the record -- in the aptly titled, "Know My Name."

In releasing the book, says publisher Penguin Random House, Miller is reclaiming her identity. Her struggles with shame and isolation provide a microcosm into the oppression that sexual assault victims -- even those with supposedly "perfect" cases -- experience, it says.
Hopefully her case is kept in the public eye to help ensure other young men do not make "poor decisions".

Meanwhile Turner is doing very well for an SOB rapist who should be in prison.
https://meaww.com/stanford-rapist-br...g-minimum-wage
Quote:
At Tark Inc., Turner works in the quality control department. According to his colleagues, he does not speak to anyone and "keeps his head down" at all times.

"He worked in shipping and receiving and he's now in quality control. He's been with us for just over two years," one co-worker told the outlet on condition of anonymity. "He's really quiet and polite. He doesn't say much and he's not really chatty with anyone. He just keeps his head down and does his job, no problems."

As of now, the 23-year-old lives with his parents at their $300,000 three-bedroom home located in a coveted neighborhood in Bellbrook, Ohio.
Ranb
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:34 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/04/us/br...doe/index.html

Hopefully her case is kept in the public eye to help ensure other young men do not make "poor decisions".

Meanwhile Turner is doing very well for an SOB rapist who should be in prison.
https://meaww.com/stanford-rapist-br...g-minimum-wage


Ranb


Thanks for the update, and agreed.
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