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Old 10th June 2016, 09:12 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not sure why this is relevant, since the victim here had 4 drinks of whiskey before even going to the party. It would not have been a mystery to her that she was already drunk when she decided to drink yet more at the party.

I disagree. I think the notion that some are pushing, that it's impossible to become falling down drunk accidentally, is entirely inaccurate. It's entirely possible, especially when someone else has been mixing the drinks and in a party atmosphere, to drink too much before being able to really notice the effect. I've certainly done it in my younger days. I don't imagine it's a unique experience to me. I'm open to the possibility that I'm an outlier though.
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Old 10th June 2016, 09:22 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I disagree. I think the notion that some are pushing, that it's impossible to become falling down drunk accidentally, is entirely inaccurate.
It may be possible in the abstract, but in this case and most cases in general, people who become fall-down drunk got that way because they intended to get very drunk, even if not quite that drunk.
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Old 10th June 2016, 09:25 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I disagree. I think the notion that some are pushing, that it's impossible to become falling down drunk accidentally, is entirely inaccurate. It's entirely possible, especially when someone else has been mixing the drinks and in a party atmosphere, to drink too much before being able to really notice the effect. I've certainly done it in my younger days. I don't imagine it's a unique experience to me. I'm open to the possibility that I'm an outlier though.
I think someone could become drunk accidentally, if they drank a lot in a short time, but falling down drunk? Personally, I can't do that accidentally.
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Old 10th June 2016, 09:26 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It may be possible in the abstract, but in this case and most cases in general, people who become fall-down drunk got that way because they intended to get very drunk, even if not quite that drunk.

Yes. So they accidentally became falling down drunk.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:00 AM   #445
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The times I've been fall down drunk has been attempting to get drunk... but then those last few shots is what does it.

I don't criticize her at all for going out and getting far to drunk..... well I did call it stupid... but it's what a lot of people do.

I'm reading a lot of stuff I see pop up on social media, that I simply just don't agree with. I think it's ******** that only alcohol can make you do things you would do anyway. There have been people that have been run over by trains. People do incredibly stupid and vile things when drunk and that can vary from person to person. This whole meme of "well ive been drunk lots of times and I've never raped someone", is just total bull and sends a completely wrong message, IMO.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:06 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I disagree. I think the notion that some are pushing, that it's impossible to become falling down drunk accidentally, is entirely inaccurate. It's entirely possible, especially when someone else has been mixing the drinks and in a party atmosphere, to drink too much before being able to really notice the effect. I've certainly done it in my younger days. I don't imagine it's a unique experience to me. I'm open to the possibility that I'm an outlier though.
Yeah, me too. Seems like it's easy to do if liqueur is involved. (Probably harder if all you touch is 4% beer all night)
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:11 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
People do incredibly stupid and vile things when drunk and that can vary from person to person. This whole meme of "well ive been drunk lots of times and I've never raped someone", is just total bull and sends a completely wrong message, IMO.
People do incredibly stupid things... but alcohol cant put ideas into your head. It can just remove inhibitions, or your fear of consequences or getting caught.

I doubt that someone with empathy is going to turn into a rapist because they've had X drinks.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:19 AM   #448
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ON THE HAPPY FRONT OF THIS IDIOT JUDGE: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jur...z&ocid=UE07DHP
jurors are refusing to serve in his courtroom as jurors and he is humbly excusing them from service. AND he is being investigated otherwise for this foul and pestilent gross injustice he committed!!!! Hope the POS is disbarred!!!!!
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:38 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
People do incredibly stupid things... but alcohol cant put ideas into your head. It can just remove inhibitions, or your fear of consequences or getting caught.
I think that is just complete ********. Maybe in the violent way we sometimes think about rape, it's hard to imagine a person turning into a violent rapist. But the ultra horny teenager who is beyond drunk lying down with a girl that's in the same state... that's just asking for trouble. And the message we try and send him of "no worries, if you wouldn't do it sober, you are not going to do it drunk", is beyond irresponsible, IMO.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:38 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes. So they accidentally became falling down drunk.
Yes. It happens to people who don't intend it to happen, but who willingly put themselves at obvious risk of it happening.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:45 AM   #451
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For me justice is about being effective at stopping crimes from happening again. I doubt that Turner will commit another rape again due to his conviction and the punishment. His punishment also lasts for the rest of his life, which is good because the effect on the victim is for the rest of her life. Turner is on the sex offenders list for life, he is banned from USA swimming for life, he is out of university so no degree.

I also think that what he has been punished with will act as a deterrent to other males thinking of doing the same thing. If you go to university, you are career minded and expect to be a higher than average earner. Rape someone and that will never happen.

I would also ban Turner from having alcohol for the rest of his life. As pointed out above, alcohol does not turn a good guy into a rapist, it removes the inhibitions of someone already inclined towards such conduct. A good guy with a drink in him would make sure she was OK till she had sobered up.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:59 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
For me justice is about being effective at stopping crimes from happening again.
I thought it was about fairly resolving social issues.
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Old 10th June 2016, 01:18 PM   #453
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So, many in this thread (and outside it, in the wider internet and world) consider the sentence handed down in this case to be a travesty of justice.

Well, the following story just came to my attention; it was reported on back in February. Woman pleads guilty to child sex crimes in Jefferson City. From the article:

Quote:
A Jefferson City woman won't spend any time in prison after admitting to sex crimes against multiple children. Misti Fitzwater pleaded guilty to five different felonies Thursday.

A judge suspended Fitzwater's sentence and placed her on parole ...

Fitzwater pleaded guilty to one charge of statutory rape, two of statutory sodomy and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child ...

I expect the outrage should start happening any time now against this travesty of justice, yes?
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Old 10th June 2016, 01:26 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
So, many in this thread (and outside it, in the wider internet and world) consider the sentence handed down in this case to be a travesty of justice.

Well, the following story just came to my attention; it was reported on back in February. Woman pleads guilty to child sex crimes in Jefferson City. From the article:




I expect the outrage should start happening any time now against this travesty of justice, yes?
MO 566.062. 1. A person commits the offense of statutory sodomy in the first degree if he or she has deviate sexual intercourse with another person who is less than fourteen years of age.

Holy ****, yeah, that's pretty outrageous. I was thinking "maybe they were just shy of legal age." But if that law was on the books at the time of her charging, then they were under 14!

Maddening. So yes, here's my bleeding outrage.

But also irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Last edited by Tale; 10th June 2016 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 10th June 2016, 04:56 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
MO 566.062. 1. A person commits the offense of statutory sodomy in the first degree if he or she has deviate sexual intercourse with another person who is less than fourteen years of age.

Holy ****, yeah, that's pretty outrageous. I was thinking "maybe they were just shy of legal age." But if that law was on the books at the time of her charging, then they were under 14!

Maddening. So yes, here's my bleeding outrage.

But also irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Another case I really don't think needs prison.
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Old 10th June 2016, 07:33 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
But also irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Not exactly. It goes to the point I made early on about how one can find other cases where a judge gave lenient treatment to the convicted—and the case to which I linked provides one such example. Undoubtedly there are more. (And the opposite is true too: there are almost certainly cases of unusually harsh treatment to the convicted as compared to what is typically meted out.)

So, the question becomes, why does one 'travesty of justice' suddenly garner much public attention and scorn, yet others, either of similar nature or similar leniency in the face of a terrible crime, appear to go unnoticed or unremarked?

Again, if it were not for the lenient treatment of the individual in the OP's cited case, this thread would not exist.
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Old 10th June 2016, 08:16 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Is that possible that this was the lead up before the rape? Or is that disputed?
The victim's sister says Brock never spoke to her sister at the party, and that she was the woman Brock was trying to make a connexion with/letch on.

It's possible Brock, through a haze of alcohol, saw a vaguely familiar woman leave the party, and, believing he had scored, followed her.

Or he may be a liar.
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Old 10th June 2016, 08:22 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize how utterly excessive and ultimately counterproductive long prison sentences are. In Sweden he'd likely be sentenced to something like 19-20 months in prison, of which only 2/3 would be served in prison, which i think is perfectly reasonable.

.
Nonsense. Tis well known that to avoid a rape conviction in Sweden, people will hide out in a London flat, never going out, for rising 4 years (sofar)
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:01 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
So, many in this thread (and outside it, in the wider internet and world) consider the sentence handed down in this case to be a travesty of justice.

Well, the following story just came to my attention; it was reported on back in February. Woman pleads guilty to child sex crimes in Jefferson City. From the article:




I expect the outrage should start happening any time now against this travesty of justice, yes?
Not necessarily like the other one in one sense and due to a major lack of information easy to parse. Do not know the ages or sex(es) of the teens(?) involved nor what form of sodomy and upon whom it occurred. These likely had a deal of effect on the judges decision. (In other words, if it was teenage boys ready to go and the sodomy (either criminal occurrence type the term covers in law generally) was in the direction they would enjoy, I can see it going not terribly wrong for her. And, no coercion is mentioned so I assume (yes, I know) there was none. Outrage is for violent, forced sexual activity with anyone and/or any with smaller, not teen children.

Last edited by fuelair; 10th June 2016 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 10th June 2016, 11:59 PM   #460
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The father's letter to the judge has already been seen by most of you, but I hadn't seen any of the mother's letter before. It is available here:

http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com...#39;s%20mother

TL;DR - she's so upset she hasn't been able to decorate her new house. No mention of the victim anywhere.
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Old 11th June 2016, 12:03 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Nonsense. Tis well known that to avoid a rape conviction in Sweden, people will hide out in a London flat, never going out, for rising 4 years (sofar)

Hahahahaha! Out standing!!!
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Old 11th June 2016, 01:29 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes. It happens to people who don't intend it to happen, but who willingly put themselves at obvious risk of it happening.
Still not sure what you're saying here, I'm really not. he got drunker than she intended. By accident. Happens every Friday night all over the world.
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Old 11th June 2016, 05:01 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The father's letter to the judge has already been seen by most of you, but I hadn't seen any of the mother's letter before. It is available here:

http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com...#39;s%20mother

TL;DR - she's so upset she hasn't been able to decorate her new house. No mention of the victim anywhere.


These are letters in support of their son. That is what they are supposed to do. Yes even on a skeptics board people are convinced letters for the sole purpose of lessening the sentence of the guilty party are supposed to be letters for the victim. They are not. And they shouldn't be, especially at the time they were written, the case was probably headed (and may still be) for appeal.
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Old 11th June 2016, 05:07 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Yes even on a skeptics board people are convinced letters for the sole purpose of lessening the sentence of the guilty party are supposed to be letters for the victim. They are not.
I don't think anybody has suggested they should be letters for the victim. Perhaps you can point to somebody who thinks this, but I don't remember seeing it.
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Old 11th June 2016, 05:23 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The father's letter to the judge has already been seen by most of you, but I hadn't seen any of the mother's letter before. It is available here:

http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com...#39;s%20mother

TL;DR - she's so upset she hasn't been able to decorate her new house. No mention of the victim anywhere.

What a load of self-serving bollocks.

Not a single mention of the victim or that she is even one bit sorry for what her rapist son did to her.

The more I learn about these two (Turner's parents) the more I understand how their little bastard turned out to be a rapist.
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Old 11th June 2016, 05:26 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The father's letter to the judge has already been seen by most of you, but I hadn't seen any of the mother's letter before. It is available here:

http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com...#39;s%20mother

TL;DR - she's so upset she hasn't been able to decorate her new house. No mention of the victim anywhere.
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't think anybody has suggested they should be letters for the victim. Perhaps you can point to somebody who thinks this, but I don't remember seeing it.
Its pretty obvious from her letter she believes her sons story. The letter is for the Judge begging him for mercy. So 1 she believes her son is innocent and 2, she is writing to beg for mercy for her son. It's not supposed to address the victim.

Also, your take away from the letter is ludicrous. Yip... She's just really sad she can't decorate the house... That's the basic jist of the letter. Unbelievable.

You expect to find this level of comprehension on a comments section of a British tabloid. Not a skeptics board.
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Old 11th June 2016, 05:57 AM   #467
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It's tone deaf (pretty much like the father's letter) not to at least express some sympathy with your son's victim.

smartcooky has it about right.
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Old 11th June 2016, 10:35 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Not necessarily like the other one in one sense and due to a major lack of information easy to parse. Do not know the ages or sex(es) of the teens(?) involved nor what form of sodomy and upon whom it occurred. These likely had a deal of effect on the judges decision. (In other words, if it was teenage boys ready to go and the sodomy (either criminal occurrence type the term covers in law generally) was in the direction they would enjoy, I can see it going not terribly wrong for her. And, no coercion is mentioned so I assume (yes, I know) there was none. Outrage is for violent, forced sexual activity with anyone and/or any with smaller, not teen children.

I would suggest looking at the exact charges to which she pleaded guilty. How are those any less egregious than the ones in the case cited in the OP? If they are not, then we are taken directly to my point: leniency sometimes happens, in spite of the convicted having done a terrible crime, in which case, why outrage over one and silence for another? Is it nothing more than the fickleness of the press and/or public? Or is it something else?
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Old 11th June 2016, 10:47 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Not exactly. It goes to the point I made early on about how one can find other cases where a judge gave lenient treatment to the convicted—and the case to which I linked provides one such example. Undoubtedly there are more. (And the opposite is true too: there are almost certainly cases of unusually harsh treatment to the convicted as compared to what is typically meted out.)

So, the question becomes, why does one 'travesty of justice' suddenly garner much public attention and scorn, yet others, either of similar nature or similar leniency in the face of a terrible crime, appear to go unnoticed or unremarked?

Again, if it were not for the lenient treatment of the individual in the OP's cited case, this thread would not exist.
In the case of Brock Turner, it is very likely that it would not have garnered the attention it did if it weren't for the victim's letter read to him during sentencing going viral. So many people have read her words, and upon reading them were of course sparked to find out the details of the case, whereupon finding that the perpetrator only received a six month sentence are promptly outraged on behalf of the victim, whom they are primed to sympathize with due to the power of her words. I don't know of another case where the words of the victim garnered such attention, mostly because I don't know of another case where the victim really made the effort to make her rapist understand what he did to her, even if it was ultimately wasted effort if Turner's own words subsequent to sentencing are any indication.

The point is, just because it happens in other cases doesn't preclude people being outraged regarding this case. And yes, had I heard about the cases you cited in a similar fashion to Turner's case, I would have been just as outraged on behalf of the victims.
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Old 11th June 2016, 10:56 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Is it nothing more than the fickleness of the press and/or public?
Mostly.

Quote:
Or is it something else?
The part that doesn't fall in the "mostly" above is that there's nothing sensational about it.

First, the case you cited is one of those "relatively young female teacher has sex with senior guys" cases. Technically, it's a pretty serious crime but, in all seriousness?

If she had gotten pregnant or given them herpes, it might have gotten a lot more press. There would have been something worthy of tabloid attention.

The case in this thread had a few "juicy" elements. There was an an Olympic hopeful. There was a frat party, which people love to imagine as something that is not quite an orgy, but close. (I think there's a lot of truth to that imagining, but it's just not as exciting as we create it in our mind's eye.) There was a woman, unconscious, outdoors. And then, to top it all off, there was the dad's letter and "twenty minutes of action". There's a money quote. That makes it press worthy.
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Old 11th June 2016, 11:19 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
The point is, just because it happens in other cases doesn't preclude people being outraged regarding this case.

I agree, to a point. But I would add the caveat as to what exactly the outrage says and what it is railing against. If the outrage by some tries to, for example, make claims about this case being proof of 'rape culture' then I am going to have to emphatically disagree.
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Old 11th June 2016, 12:50 PM   #472
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A quick search of this thread and I can't find this story

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-believe.html

Sounds plausible
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Old 11th June 2016, 03:01 PM   #473
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The entire police file, which is where the information in that Daily Mail story comes from, is available here:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...ck-turner.html
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Old 11th June 2016, 03:46 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It's tone deaf (pretty much like the father's letter) not to at least express some sympathy with your son's victim.

smartcooky has it about right.

That is not the purpose of her letter though. Do you think if you were to ask her she wouldn't feel sympathy? Of course she would feel terrible what happened to her. I'm sure had she known her letter would go viral and the nature of the righteous internet to parse, pick apart and take out of context every detail of her life, I'm sure she would have made it a point to attempt to placate the mob... of course it wouldn't work... you know, because then the letter is all about her wanting to decorate her house... but she would have tried.
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Old 12th June 2016, 09:32 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I think that is just complete ********. Maybe in the violent way we sometimes think about rape, it's hard to imagine a person turning into a violent rapist. But the ultra horny teenager who is beyond drunk lying down with a girl that's in the same state... that's just asking for trouble. And the message we try and send him of "no worries, if you wouldn't do it sober, you are not going to do it drunk", is beyond irresponsible, IMO.
This.

The reason I am in such strong disagreement with the "rape is never about sex" narrative. That tells young men, unless you are a disgusting sadist, you don't even have to exert control - you'll never rape because you aren't power-hungry.

The truth is that a horny person, particularly when very drunk, CAN act on their own desires without regard for the other person and with no motive but sex. So know that this does happen and make sure you don't.
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Old 12th June 2016, 11:05 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
But the ultra horny teenager who is beyond drunk lying down with a girl that's in the same state... that's just asking for trouble.

Uh, there's no trouble there, unless one of the parties is actually unconscious. If neither is, then both can consent to drunken sex. (They may not have consented to it had they been sober or at least less inebriated, but alcohol lowers inhibitions, so if sufficiently drunk they might say yes instead.)
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Old 12th June 2016, 11:49 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Uh, there's no trouble there, unless one of the parties is actually unconscious. If neither is, then both can consent to drunken sex. (They may not have consented to it had they been sober or at least less inebriated, but alcohol lowers inhibitions, so if sufficiently drunk they might say yes instead.)
That's the trouble. It's very easy to pass out.
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Old 12th June 2016, 01:32 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
It's very easy to pass out.

Again, depends on the individual, it seems to me.
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Old 12th June 2016, 04:46 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
This.

The reason I am in such strong disagreement with the "rape is never about sex" narrative. That tells young men, unless you are a disgusting sadist, you don't even have to exert control - you'll never rape because you aren't power-hungry.

The truth is that a horny person, particularly when very drunk, CAN act on their own desires without regard for the other person and with no motive but sex. So know that this does happen and make sure you don't.

So please explain to me how your drunk, horny person can have sex with a woman who has not consented without forcing her to do so. If he does not control her, she just walks away.

I'll save you the trouble of answering because you won't be able to. Rape is impossible without power and/or control, whether it be;

Physical (overpowering with strength)
Emotional (I will kill you unless you give in), or
Psychological (my cohort is in your little girl's bedroom and he will kill her if you don't comply)
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Old 12th June 2016, 05:23 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So please explain to me how your drunk, horny person can have sex with a woman who has not consented without forcing her to do so.
Just as occurred in this case - she is incapacitated. More generally, a lack of resistance due to incapacity may be simply accepted without question or assumed to be due to consent.

Quote:
I'll save you the trouble of answering because you won't be able to.
Just did.

Quote:
Rape is impossible without power and/or control,
As is any violent crime, and yet we don't confuse means with motivation (unless we're trying to make a political point about rape).


Quote:
whether it be;
Physical (overpowering with strength)
Emotional (I will kill you unless you give in), or
Psychological (my cohort is in your little girl's bedroom and he will kill her if you don't comply)
How is "emotional" distinct from "psychological"? You're just talking about acquiescence due to coercive threat.
You would have thought, when constructing this list, it would have occurred to you to include something matching the actual incident this thread is about. You missed incapacity. That's not on your list.
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