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Old 20th June 2016, 01:10 PM   #521
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are not "at fault" at all. Nor have I ever said they, or the victim in this case, were. Nor is it about criticizing them, it's about warning people about risks so they can avoid them.
Your first post on this was about how you couldn't criticize the behavior of the victim. It is all about criticising their behavior so you don't have to talk about the rapists behavior.

Clearly that is a much bigger concern to you than this rapist getting a very light slap on the wrist. Nothing worth commenting about that to you, justice is being served and all, but the important thing is being able to shame the actions of the victim.
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:10 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're taking the wrong approach here. The far more critical point is that it doesn't matter whether you've done that. Maybe you haven't because you're sensible enough not to. Or maybe you HAVE done it, and you're intimately familiar with the negative consequences, and want to keep others from making the same mistake you made. Either way, his question is irrelevant, because neither a yes nor a no can discredit your position.

It doesn't matter insofar as the responsibility for a crime taking place—the criminal is responsible for the crime. It does matter insofar as one can reduce one's risk of encountering adverse situations by exercising sensible personal judgement. It would be nice, perhaps, to live in a world where one can partake in reckless behaviour without worry of any negative consequences, but that is not the real world. There are consequences (which will range from minor to major).
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:12 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly that is a much bigger concern to you than this rapist getting a very light slap on the wrist.

Ethan Couch got a slap on the wrist too, and he got four people killed as a direct result of his actions. Lenient sentences sometimes happen (as do unduly harsh sentences).
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:26 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Is getting drunk to the point of becoming unconscious a "mildly idiotic" thing? Or is it strongly idiotic?
It depends on the time and place and people that are there.
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:36 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Your first post on this was about how you couldn't criticize the behavior of the victim. It is all about criticising their behavior so you don't have to talk about the rapists behavior.
No. First off, it was my third post in this thread. Second, let's see what it was really about:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're not allowed to warn women not to get black-out drunk at college parties. Apparently common-sense advice is victim-blaming.
The only part about victim blaming was bout how some people would try to misrepresent that warning as blaming the victim. And like clockwork, here you are, misrepresenting that warning as victim blaming. I said exactly what would happen, and then you did it. And that's supposed to prove me wrong? Yeah, no.

Quote:
Clearly that is a much bigger concern to you than this rapist getting a very light slap on the wrist. Nothing worth commenting about that to you, justice is being served and all, but the important thing is being able to shame the actions of the victim.
You're half-right: it's NOT worth me simply echoing what other people have already said about Brock's sentence. I have nothing new or different to offer on that account. I've told you this already. And yet you persist in lying about me, because that's all you can do. If you can't paint me as an apologist for rape, then you can't discredit me, because you certainly can't address my actual argument.
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:40 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
It doesn't matter insofar as the responsibility for a crime taking place—the criminal is responsible for the crime. It does matter insofar as one can reduce one's risk of encountering adverse situations by exercising sensible personal judgement.
I think you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not you personally have ever gotten blotto drunk. The truth of the risks of alcohol, and your statements about those risks, is independent of your personal history. He was trying to bring in your personal history as if it mattered, and I'm saying your personal history doesn't matter to the argument you made. Your argument can stand independent of your personal history.
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Old 20th June 2016, 02:08 PM   #527
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Here's a question, and I apologize if it's already been put in this long and verbose thread.

Now that homosexuality has become rather mainstream and protected, the question of who can rape whom changes a bit. Does this mean that a man who gets drunk or dresses scantily is "asking for" rape? If not, why not, and if not, why is it different for women?
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Old 20th June 2016, 02:15 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Now that homosexuality has become rather mainstream and protected, the question of who can rape whom changes a bit.
wat

Is this some sort of sarcasm? I'm seeing lots of people in this thread trying to be edgy as an ironic device against others and it makes things hard to follow.

Or that's what I hope I'm seeing.

Last edited by Tale; 20th June 2016 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 20th June 2016, 02:29 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Here's a question, and I apologize if it's already been put in this long and verbose thread.

Now that homosexuality has become rather mainstream and protected, the question of who can rape whom changes a bit. Does this mean that a man who gets drunk or dresses scantily is "asking for" rape? If not, why not, and if not, why is it different for women?
it is different for women they're usually weaker, that makes for an easier Target
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Old 20th June 2016, 03:37 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
wat

Is this some sort of sarcasm? I'm seeing lots of people in this thread trying to be edgy as an ironic device against others and it makes things hard to follow.

Or that's what I hope I'm seeing.
I do not mean it as a joke at all. What distinguishes the rape of a male from the rape of a female? We hear from various quarters that provocative dress and drunkenness make rape a lesser offense, perhaps not a true rape at all. It is stated by some that a person who relinquishes restraint and trusts the restraint of others is "asking for it." I simply would like to know if this would wash in the case of a man who is raped. If it would not, why not?
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Old 20th June 2016, 03:39 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
it is different for women they're usually weaker, that makes for an easier Target
Everyone is weak when passed out. If raping a sleeping woman is somehow justified, the weakness is not in the person, but in the system that justifies it.
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Old 20th June 2016, 03:45 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Everyone is weak when passed out. If raping a sleeping woman is somehow justified, the weakness is not in the person, but in the system that justifies it.
So let me see....a guy is raping some drunk, passed-out woman and she wakes up in horror, and the guys says, "Hey, it's not your fault, nor is it my fault...it's the Rape System's Fault!"

Did I get that right?
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Old 20th June 2016, 04:05 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
If raping a sleeping woman is somehow justified, the weakness is not in the person, but in the system that justifies it.

Which 'system' is 'justifying' it? The fact that it is classified as a serious crime would seem good evidence that it is most certainly not condoned.
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Old 20th June 2016, 04:40 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I do not mean it as a joke at all. What distinguishes the rape of a male from the rape of a female?
Depends on the specific laws. In some places in the US, males cannot be raped by females simply as a matter of definition, though they can be sodomized and that is a crime.

But as a general principle (and according to the law where it has been updated to meet modern understanding), there is nothing which distinguishes male and female rape.

Quote:
We hear from various quarters that provocative dress and drunkenness make rape a lesser offense, perhaps not a true rape at all.
Do we?

I hear people say that they hear this, but I never seem to hear it directly. Strange.

Quote:
It is stated by some that a person who relinquishes restraint and trusts the restraint of others is "asking for it."
I have no exposure to these people of whom you speak. Who are they, how many of them are there, and why do they deserve our attention?

Quote:
I simply would like to know if this would wash in the case of a man who is raped. If it would not, why not?
It wouldn't wash for the same reason it doesn't wash with women. Obviously.

You seem to be arguing against a straw man, but I can't figure out why you are bothering.
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Old 20th June 2016, 05:35 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Depends on the specific laws. In some places in the US, males cannot be raped by females simply as a matter of definition, though they can be sodomized and that is a crime.

But as a general principle (and according to the law where it has been updated to meet modern understanding), there is nothing which distinguishes male and female rape.



Do we?

I hear people say that they hear this, but I never seem to hear it directly. Strange.



I have no exposure to these people of whom you speak. Who are they, how many of them are there, and why do they deserve our attention?



It wouldn't wash for the same reason it doesn't wash with women. Obviously.

You seem to be arguing against a straw man, but I can't figure out why you are bothering.
My use of the word "system" was hasty and ill advised. But if there are people who have argued that a person's agency in becoming helpless is asking for rape, or mitigates the offense, it seems reasonable to ask if that is the case for anyone.

I have a feeling that many people would view it differently. If it's a straw man, well, so much the better. Now if you'll excuse me, i'll look for a crowbar to see if I can extract my foot from my mouth.
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Old 20th June 2016, 05:52 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But if there are people who have argued that a person's agency in becoming helpless is asking for rape, or mitigates the offense, it seems reasonable to ask if that is the case for anyone.

That's a mighty big "if" however. (Let's note too that, for some, even pointing out that certain actions place one at higher risk of being a victim of crime is decried as 'blaming the victim'.)
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Old 20th June 2016, 06:01 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
if there are people who have argued that a person's agency in becoming helpless is asking for rape
I don't recall anyone on this forum saying so.

Quote:
I have a feeling that many people would view it differently.
There are certainly people in the world who believe that the actions of a woman such as dressing provocatively or getting drunk justify raping them. But there are very few such people in the US (it's not so uncommon in certain Muslim countries). Such an attitude is barbaric, and while the question of any possible double standard in their view on male versus female rape might be of some academic interest, I can't say I really care to explore the nuances of such a thoroughly vile world view.

Quote:
If it's a straw man, well, so much the better. Now if you'll excuse me, i'll look for a crowbar to see if I can extract my foot from my mouth.
No worries.
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Old 20th June 2016, 06:01 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....
Being an idiot does not give a predator the right to rape her

Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
and she was asking for it..
Just No! There is no such thing as "asking for it" when it comes to rape.

No matter how a person dresses, they are not "asking to for it"

No matter whether a person drinks to excess or not, they are not "asking for it"

Dressing provocatively may increase their chances of falling victim to a rapist or predator, but that is NOT the same as asking for it.
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Old 21st June 2016, 01:52 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Being an idiot does not give a predator the right to rape her



Just No! There is no such thing as "asking for it" when it comes to rape.

No matter how a person dresses, they are not "asking to for it"

No matter whether a person drinks to excess or not, they are not "asking for it"

Dressing provocatively may increase their chances of falling victim to a rapist or predator, but that is NOT the same as asking for it.

I would say-don't bother. It's not worth it. Obvious troll is obvious an' all that ...
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:09 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Ethan Couch got a slap on the wrist too, and he got four people killed as a direct result of his actions. Lenient sentences sometimes happen (as do unduly harsh sentences).
And yet we need to talk about how reckless and irresponsible his victims were standing on the side of the road like that. No one is willing to talk about that part of the case.
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:15 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not you personally have ever gotten blotto drunk. The truth of the risks of alcohol, and your statements about those risks, is independent of your personal history. He was trying to bring in your personal history as if it mattered, and I'm saying your personal history doesn't matter to the argument you made. Your argument can stand independent of your personal history.
Got it no one ever got drunker than they intended in either of your life experiences. That is a total myth that it could possibly happen.
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:16 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Here's a question, and I apologize if it's already been put in this long and verbose thread.

Now that homosexuality has become rather mainstream and protected, the question of who can rape whom changes a bit. Does this mean that a man who gets drunk or dresses scantily is "asking for" rape? If not, why not, and if not, why is it different for women?
They should also expect to be raped if they pass out drunk at a frat party. That is the risks of going to rape centers like them.
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:19 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it no one ever got drunker than they intended in either of your life experiences. That is a total myth that it could possibly happen.
Cool story
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:38 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Cool story
Coursair has been clear that this does not happen, that people get only as drunk as they intend, except as being drunk changes their intentions. You and Zig clearly agree with those statements. So the idea of accidentally becoming far drunker than you intend must be a myth in your world as well.
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Old 21st June 2016, 03:47 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.

All young women - especially a 22-year-old-woman - know it's dangerous to get black-out drunk among a group of young Horn-Toads they don't even know. I mean, this is just asking for rape...and this woman either knew it, or was too delusional to know it. Anyways...she got raped and maybe this will help her grow the hell up and quit getting drunk in public - and maybe it will be a lesson for a lot of other young, stupid girls who get drunk in public.

Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman. Seriously, I got better things to do with my life than to fight off the rapists that she invited by her behavior. Hey...if I go to combat and get my arse beat on for protecting a woman, it's going to be for a woman that really "wasn't asking for it".
How old are you?
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Old 21st June 2016, 05:14 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it no one ever got drunker than they intended in either of your life experiences. That is a total myth that it could possibly happen.
Wow. That's the dumbest straw man you've come up with yet, and that's saying something.
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Old 21st June 2016, 10:16 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet we need to talk about how reckless and irresponsible his victims were standing on the side of the road like that. No one is willing to talk about that part of the case.

Bzzzzt. Sorry, your answer is incorrect and inaccurate.
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Old 21st June 2016, 10:21 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Coursair has been clear that this does not happen, that people get only as drunk as they intend, except as being drunk changes their intentions.

Where did I say that it does not happen? I have been quite consistent in saying one should exercise sensible personal judgement. And getting black-out drunk is not a sensible action. Consequently, one should pay attention to their physical condition. One should be aware of their tolerance for alcohol, since—as I have stated repeatedly—there are numerous consequences that can arise being inebriated to the point of unconsciousness, with the seriousness of those consequences ranging from minor to major. Is paying such attention impossible to do?
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Old 21st June 2016, 10:41 AM   #549
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Being an idiot does not give a predator the right to rape her



Just No! There is no such thing as "asking for it" when it comes to rape.

No matter how a person dresses, they are not "asking to for it"

No matter whether a person drinks to excess or not, they are not "asking for it"

Dressing provocatively may increase their chances of falling victim to a rapist or predator, but that is NOT the same as asking for it.
You're right...but they just make it so much easier when they get drunker and sleazier!

For when young women tease the predators with drink and woo, they eventually reap a rapist, or two!

Young Women need more training on how to avoid rape. I suggest making then watch training films where young, liberated college women dress sleazy and go have a night on the town, get drunk, and then meet the Football Team - where they are them taken unconcious by the Football Players to their dorms and sodomized by the "Varsity Rape Squad" - and then turned out half-naked into the street where they are arrested by the police for indecent exposure and suspected solicitation. Although they try to tell what really happen to the police and Title IX authorities, they are branded as sluts and thrown out of the University and then charges are brought against them for lying about the Football Heros. And....their names and photos are pasted all over the Front Page of the Newspapers.

Now....this would make them think twice about getting drunk around strange, sexually-violent men....don't you think?

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Old 22nd June 2016, 01:30 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
<snip>

Cows kill more people than sharks. But which is more dangerous to be next to? A shark. But if sharks are more dangerous to be next to, why do cows kill more people?

Statistics have contexts. You are ignoring yours.

Then again, what if it actually isn't more dangerous to be next to a shark?

People are next to sharks a great deal more than they realize. Anyone who spends much time in the ocean has probably been next to sharks a lot more than they have cows. (Unless, of course, they are dairy farmers.) They just don't know it.

The fact is, sharks usually don't bother humans even when they are around them. We aren't very attractive to most of them as prey. The rare cases of people who get hurt by sharks usually have been 'tasted' (so to speak) after making some sort of movement that the shark relates to dinner. Or possibly it sees a flash of something shiny. And then the shark realizes that isn't part of their regular menu and backs off.

This isn't much solace to the poor sucker who got sampled, needless to say. But that doesn't change the fact that there are nearly always more sharks around than people would want to know about.

If they did they'd spend a lot less time in the water at the beach.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 01:54 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.

All young women - especially a 22-year-old-woman - know it's dangerous to get black-out drunk among a group of young Horn-Toads they don't even know. I mean, this is just asking for rape...and this woman either knew it, or was too delusional to know it. Anyways...she got raped and maybe this will help her grow the hell up and quit getting drunk in public - and maybe it will be a lesson for a lot of other young, stupid girls who get drunk in public.

Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman. Seriously, I got better things to do with my life than to fight off the rapists that she invited by her behavior. Hey...if I go to combat and get my arse beat on for protecting a woman, it's going to be for a woman that really "wasn't asking for it".
How very Muslim of you
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Old 22nd June 2016, 02:10 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
You're right...but they just make it so much easier when they get drunker and sleazier!

For when young women tease the predators with drink and woo, they eventually reap a rapist, or two!

Young Women need more training on how to avoid rape. I suggest making then watch training films where young, liberated college women dress sleazy and go have a night on the town, get drunk, and then meet the Football Team - where they are them taken unconcious by the Football Players to their dorms and sodomized by the "Varsity Rape Squad" - and then turned out half-naked into the street where they are arrested by the police for indecent exposure and suspected solicitation. Although they try to tell what really happen to the police and Title IX authorities, they are branded as sluts and thrown out of the University and then charges are brought against them for lying about the Football Heros. And....their names and photos are pasted all over the Front Page of the Newspapers.

Now....this would make them think twice about getting drunk around strange, sexually-violent men....don't you think?


No, seriously, how old are you?
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Old 22nd June 2016, 02:11 AM   #553
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There seems to be logical failure among certain members here to understand the difference between "increasing the risk of something bad happening" and "asking for it" to happen.

Sure, a woman who dresses provocatively and gets drunk is likely increasing her risk of being attacked and possibly raped. That is a simple statistical (and probably provable) reality and probably says more about certain males than it does about her. However, that does NOT mean she is "asking for it".

Every time I drive my car I am increasing my risk of being involved in a traffic accident; this does not mean I am asking to be involved in one. You might argue that if I drive carelessly or recklessly, then I would be "asking for it", but careless or reckless driving is illegal; dressing provocatively and getting drunk at a party is not.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:36 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There seems to be logical failure among certain members here to understand the difference between "increasing the risk of something bad happening" and "asking for it" to happen.
And why is that the only thing people want to talk about? How she messed up? And then they don't want to follow that through just a bit further to say that women need to avoid frat parties because that would be crazy, right after comparing them to rape centers.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:40 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why is that the only thing people want to talk about? How she messed up?
it isn't, it's what you keep bringing up in order to distract

it's not working
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:45 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why is that the only thing people want to talk about?
It's not. In fact, you seem more interested in talking about it than anyone else.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:23 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why is that the only thing people want to talk about? How she messed up?

Perhaps because this sort of behaviour keeps happening, and more needs to be done to make people aware of the risks of binge drinking? (And, once more, sexual assault is not the only risk posed by such action.)
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:46 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Perhaps because this sort of behaviour keeps happening, and more needs to be done to make people aware of the risks of binge drinking? (And, once more, sexual assault is not the only risk posed by such action.)
Don't concede the premise of his question when the premise is wrong.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 11:20 AM   #559
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There seems to be logical failure among certain members here to understand the difference between "increasing the risk of something bad happening" and "asking for it" to happen.

Sure, a woman who dresses provocatively and gets drunk is likely increasing her risk of being attacked and possibly raped. That is a simple statistical (and probably provable) reality and probably says more about certain males than it does about her. However, that does NOT mean she is "asking for it".

Every time I drive my car I am increasing my risk of being involved in a traffic accident; this does not mean I am asking to be involved in one. You might argue that if I drive carelessly or recklessly, then I would be "asking for it", but careless or reckless driving is illegal; dressing provocatively and getting drunk at a party is not.

So what? It's Stupid!

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is smart. For example, hanging Pork Chops about your neck and walking alone and unarmed (and Drunk!) in Grizzly Bear Country is not illegal - But it is Stupid! Bears eat people - that's their Job and ya' can't make them not want to do it.

Likewise, a young woman gets black-out drunk and raped by a young psychopath Jock....because that's his Job! He's a Psychopath and no amount of education and empathy training is going to make him not want to hurt people. Only fear is going to stop him...so it's best to avoid him.

And these Stupid Slutwalks! I mean, protesting downtown half-naked in front of a bunch of dweeb men about rape is like protesting that bears are eating people by marching and shouting slogans at the Penguin Exhibit at the local Zoo: it just utterly misses the target demographic (unless, of course, you've convinced yourself that Penguins are going to chase you down in the woods and eat you).

Are you starting to see the nonsense?

Last edited by Jules Galen; 23rd June 2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:25 PM   #560
Corsair 115
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't concede the premise of his question when the premise is wrong.

I understand your point, but I think the matter of minimizing risky behaviour is still a valid subject unto itself. All actions come with a cost attached.
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