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Old 21st November 2017, 02:16 AM   #41
Worm
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
they need to raise taxes on the poor and lower class.
Lovely.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Lovely.
Punishing the poor is a key value in conservative circles.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:48 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Lovely.
You don't get it. See if the Government taxes the poor more, then they will be genuinely poor, and then logger and all his rich Conservative friends can abide by the words of Jesus and sell all they have have and give the money to the poor. thus ensuring their own place in heaven by proving that they love God more then their worldly possessions and helping the poor at the same time by showing them that God provides for their needs.

It's the perfect win-win situation.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:51 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As already posted: virtually all STEM. Probably the largest affected group in numbers will be those in the biological sciences: the majority of whom are doing biomedical-related research. But also large numbers in chemistry, engineering, math, computer sciences, material sciences, etc. They do work for their tuition but the work is related to their research.

But why would we want to encourage them when we can give the tax breaks to golf course owners?
Look, if students want to get tax breaks they should do what the rest of middle class America does, buy a golf course and a private plane!
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Old 21st November 2017, 03:10 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Their donors would hate a bad downturn, also.
Not necessarily, the very richest did very nicely out of the 2008 crash and subsequent recession.
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Old 21st November 2017, 03:13 AM   #46
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Not necessarily, the very richest did very nicely out of the 2008 crash and subsequent recession.
Yes, and big business has more profit than ever in history. For some reason, that wealth hasn't trickled down. I guess we need to cut more taxes so they can get more profit. Pour enough into the cup and it'll eventually trickle down..........or, more likely, they'll get a larger cup.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I predict another case of Democrats will be left to clean up the mess, just as Bush left with the economy in tatters and Obama had to deal with the aftermath for years afterwards.
And just like with Obama (and Clinton in 1994 for that matter), the Republicans can hammer the Democrats on the big deficit, and the necessary tax increases to cover them, and come out on top.

As laid out here by an economic advisor to Reagan of all people: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cuts-democrats
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
That will just leave more graduate student slots available for Chinese. And it seems to be the goal of the Trump Administration to help China as much as possible.
Naa they are often better staying home, we have gutted research budgets so much there is little point in coming here for a phd anymore.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:10 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And just like with Obama (and Clinton in 1994 for that matter), the Republicans can hammer the Democrats on the big deficit, and the necessary tax increases to cover them, and come out on top.

As laid out here by an economic advisor to Reagan of all people: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cuts-democrats
The American public falls for the same lies from the Right over and over again. Why is that?
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I know you are being sarcastic but at most state universities tuition for foreign students is typically at a much higher non-resident rate than for USA citizens who can establish residency, meaning they would have to pay even higher income taxes.

It is very hard for me to not think that Trump intentionally seeks to destroy the USA as a first world country; virtually all of his policies appear to be directed to that goal. Destroying the next generation of STEM students, and the research they would have produced, is fully in keeping with that.
I don't think it is intentional, it is a side effect of the kleptocracy.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:14 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The American public falls for the same lies from the Right over and over again. Why is that?
The same reason that we all fall for fad diets and exercise gizmos that will turn you from a couch potato into an Olympic athlete in only 3 months of exercise, 10 minutes a day.

We really, really, really want it to be true and the alternative, a complete change of lifestyle involving fewer calories in and more calories out is inconveniently hard......
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Old 21st November 2017, 07:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And just like with Obama (and Clinton in 1994 for that matter), the Republicans can hammer the Democrats on the big deficit, and the necessary tax increases to cover them, and come out on top.

As laid out here by an economic advisor to Reagan of all people: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cuts-democrats


There was a political cartoon published some time in 2009. It showed President Obama dressed as Ash from the Evil Dead series, hacking at a massive hoard of zombies that were all groaning "Reaganomics...". In the background was a man shouting "Why haven't you fixed the economy yet?"
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:29 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
There was a political cartoon published some time in 2009. It showed President Obama dressed as Ash from the Evil Dead series, hacking at a massive hoard of zombies that were all groaning "Reaganomics...". In the background was a man shouting "Why haven't you fixed the economy yet?"
This one ?

http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/03/the-evil-dead/

If so, good memory and a great cartoon.
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:28 AM   #54
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Paul Krugman agrees with me that today's Republicans are taking mendacity to new depths:

Lies, Incoherence and Rage on Tax Cuts

Originally Posted by Paul Krugman
One thing you can count on in 21st-century U.S. politics is that Republicans will lie about taxes. They did it under George W. Bush, they did it under Barack Obama and they’re still doing it under Donald Trump.

Yet this time is different. It’s not just that the lies have gotten even more brazen. There’s now a combination of incoherence and rage that we, or at least I, haven’t seen before. These days, they can’t even seem to get their fake story straight — and they literally start yelling obscenities when someone tries to point out the facts.

G.O.P. lies about taxes generally involve two issues: who is hurt or helped by tax changes, and what these changes will do to the budget.

Thus, when George W. Bush cut taxes in 2001 and 2003, he and his party repeatedly insisted that the tax cuts were primarily for the middle class. In fact, while there were some middle-class tax breaks in the package, such as an increase in the child tax credit, these were dwarfed by cuts in tax rates on high incomes, reduced taxes on dividends and repeal of the estate tax. Over all, the richest 1 percent saw a much larger increase in after-tax income than middle-class families did.

So what’s different this time? As in the Bush years, Republicans are claiming to be offering a middle-class tax cut. But where Bush truly was cutting taxes on the middle class, just much less than he was on the wealthy, current Republican plans would raise those taxes on many lower- and middle-income families, even as they go down for the wealthy. (Steven Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, claims that only “million-dollar earners” would see tax increases. This is the opposite of the truth.)
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:44 AM   #55
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Not just the 21st century, of course. Reagan was doing it in the '80's.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:45 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Punishing the poor is a key value in conservative circles.
Conservative values these says are: supporting child molesters, taking away healthcare from millions, and taxing the poor so that private jet and golf course owners can get a tax break.

I literally can't think of any reason to vote Republican. They suck at science, economics, morality, democracy. At this point I'm just going to assume that all people who still support Republicans are either abortion single issue voters, or morons.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:52 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Conservative values these says are: supporting child molesters, taking away healthcare from millions, and taxing the poor so that private jet and golf course owners can get a tax break.

I literally can't think of any reason to vote Republican. They suck at science, economics, morality, democracy. At this point I'm just going to assume that all people who still support Republicans are either abortion single issue voters, or morons.
They hate all the right people though that gets them most of their votes. Don't think people of voting for republicans think of them as voting for white christian america.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Conservative values these says are: supporting child molesters, taking away healthcare from millions, and taxing the poor so that private jet and golf course owners can get a tax break.

I literally can't think of any reason to vote Republican. They suck at science, economics, morality, democracy. At this point I'm just going to assume that all people who still support Republicans are either abortion single issue voters, or morons.
You see, by giving rich people tax cuts they will employ more Americans, and give them all raises. Because what else would they spend that money on? Ferrari's, Yachts, lavish vacations in Europe? I think not sir! And global corporations that already have an effective tax rate in the single digits that are the largest private sector employers? Why, this tax bill will cause them to practically shower ordinary Americans with cash!

Actually I think the underlined is correct.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Not necessarily, the very richest did very nicely out of the 2008 crash and subsequent recession.
In the UK too.

The UK's richest 1000 families more than doubled their wealth between 2009 and 2015
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:47 PM   #60
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I don't understand the pathological need to "simplify" the tax code. All these shell games of taking away these deductions and credits, but doubling the standard deduction, but no more personal exemption...just stop. It us not that complicated to do the taxes, especially now with online filing programs, so just stop with the simplifying. If you really want to help the middle class earners, leave the tax laws as is, but cut 2 to 3 percent off each tax bracket up to the 28percent bracket.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:55 PM   #61
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Didn't Henry Ford have a trick-up approach? If you paid your workers a reasonable (and his idea of reasonable was admittedly modest compared to ours) they would have more money to spend. And they would then be able to buy more things, such as automobiles. And you know, it worked!

Although I am purposefully presenting this in a very simplistic way, this trick-up concept appears to me to have proven accurate far more than the trick-down theory that is a favorite of the wealthy. The more solidly middle class people in a society the more discretionary income available to them and the more (and broader types of) products and services are purchased, leading to a growing and robust economy.

Why is it the wealthiest who trickle-down proposes must be targeted for the infusion of extra wealth so as to stimulate an economy? I understand the suggestion that they have the largest percent discriminatory spending but experience suggests that they either lock it away (often overseas) or spend it in very narrow ways that do not help the economy in general. Trickle down is great if you are a mega-yacht builder (plus the 15 workers you may employ) or a maid, but not so good if you are Target (and the 10,000s of workers you employ).

As has been pointed out previously, the experiments testing trickle-down have already been repeatedly performed in a variety of different contexts. It turns out that it is an interesting theory, but incorrect. Economies simply do not work that way. But the wealthy and their supporters will cling to this theoretical justification of their greed to the detriment of the economy, and the country, as a whole even as everything goes to "hell in a hand basket."
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
I don't understand the pathological need to "simplify" the tax code. All these shell games of taking away these deductions and credits, but doubling the standard deduction, but no more personal exemption...just stop. It us not that complicated to do the taxes, especially now with online filing programs, so just stop with the simplifying. If you really want to help the middle class earners, leave the tax laws as is, but cut 2 to 3 percent off each tax bracket up to the 28percent bracket.
It's purely a smoke screen. For the vast majority of individuals filing taxes is very simple. And as you point out the available programs make this easy for even people with a somewhat more complicated tax picture.

Interesting, isn't it, that simplifying the tax code usually means reducing the number of tax brackets with the percent tax on the highest earners being dramatically cut. Apparently it is simpler to pay 33% than 39% if you earn big dollars.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It's purely a smoke screen. For the vast majority of individuals filing taxes is very simple. And as you point out the available programs make this easy for even people with a somewhat more complicated tax picture.
I have talked to people who have a much more straight forward tax picture than I do complain about how hard it is to do their taxes. I take a number of deductions and it takes me all of 20 minutes to do my taxes with free online tax software from H&R Block.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I have talked to people who have a much more straight forward tax picture than I do complain about how hard it is to do their taxes. I take a number of deductions and it takes me all of 20 minutes to do my taxes with free online tax software from H&R Block.
That is of course a goal, if taxes were to easy to do, then it would put whole industries out of business.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:36 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is of course a goal, if taxes were to easy to do, then it would put whole industries out of business.
But it's still not that hard. If I had to do it by hand it might take me an extra 20 minutes, and my return is on the more complicated end (children, state & local income tax, mortgage deduction, investment income, etc)...
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
I don't understand the pathological need to "simplify" the tax code.
That’s code for a “simple tax formula”, by which the mean a single tax rate paid by everyone or possibly a single tax amount paid by everyone.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Didn't Henry Ford have a trick-up approach? If you paid your workers a reasonable (and his idea of reasonable was admittedly modest compared to ours) they would have more money to spend. And they would then be able to buy more things, such as automobiles. And you know, it worked!
Actually I think that's a little bit of a myth. Ford did pay his workers higher wages than expected, but I believe the real reason is that by offering higher wages he would reduce employee turnover in his factories (which could save money in the long run on things like training.)

Unfortunately, a lot of people use false reasoning in assuming higher wages=more spending on your product. (This argument often comes up when discussing minimum wages.) It may sound good, but when you delve into it, its a plan that would not work. After all, there is no garantee that if Ford increased wages, that workers will spend the money to purchase Ford cars (some may simply bank the money, some may purchase other items). So therefore he would never be able to generate enough additional sales to pay for the higher wages.
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Old 21st November 2017, 03:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually I think that's a little bit of a myth. Ford did pay his workers higher wages than expected, but I believe the real reason is that by offering higher wages he would reduce employee turnover in his factories (which could save money in the long run on things like training.)

Unfortunately, a lot of people use false reasoning in assuming higher wages=more spending on your product. (This argument often comes up when discussing minimum wages.) It may sound good, but when you delve into it, its a plan that would not work. After all, there is no garantee that if Ford increased wages, that workers will spend the money to purchase Ford cars (some may simply bank the money, some may purchase other items). So therefore he would never be able to generate enough additional sales to pay for the higher wages.
I do not know what Ford was actually thinking, and I am certain that worker retention was very important to him. And certainly the direct math can never work out, in that a business owner would always receive less money back from the purchases of their own products than they paid out in wages (as you point out much or most of those wages will go for the worker's food, housing, other purchases, etc so the owner would always do better in a narrow sense to simply hang on to that money rather than give it to your workers to spend distributed over their multiple needs and wants).

But I do wonder if the general concept was something that Ford had indeed understood: namely that creating a strong middle class in society was necessary to sell many of the products and services that the mass production businesses of the time were beginning to produce. Not a closed loop (Ford company to Ford workers to Ford car purchases) but an open one in which generally higher salaries (paid not only by Ford but also by similar thinking business owners) would, in a broader way, help expand the number of people in the society who could buy not only cars, but furniture, and radios, and...

Perhaps these ideas were too forward thinking for Ford to ever have had them. I've read that he probably stole the concept of the assembly line, and of course he proved to be a notorious anti-Semite. But maybe he was smart enough to understand that an economically healthy society with broadly distributed income was required for him to sell the number of cars that his assembly lines were capable of producing.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then I think you have misunderstood the article.

My reading of the article is that:
  • Given the current state of the US economy (steady if unspectacular growth, low unemployment) there is no need for such a stimulus
  • That in any case, this would not be the way to do it
  • By doing this now, the GOP is denying themselves one of the necessary levers to deal with future downturns
  • Even the timetable for this legislation is wrong and is targeted at the needs of the policy makers and not the needs of the US economy
This.

It's literally a bill that is being passed so they can say they passed a (meaningful) bill this year. Everyone knows that, so they will not sign on without some pork in it for themselves their constituents.

So we will end up with a bill that has 8000 servings of pork and no substance to it.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 03:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Not just the 21st century, of course. Reagan was doing it in the '80's.
37 years of supply-side/trickle-down/voodoo economics, and Republicans say more of the same will fix the situation it's led to.

Far from improving the supply-side of the economy, voodoo economics has conincided with the mass outsourcing of US jobs that Trump complains about. Oops.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 03:24 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I know you are being sarcastic but at most state universities tuition for foreign students is typically at a much higher non-resident rate than for USA citizens who can establish residency, meaning they would have to pay even higher income taxes.

It is very hard for me to not think that Trump intentionally seeks to destroy the USA as a first world country; virtually all of his policies appear to be directed to that goal. Destroying the next generation of STEM students, and the research they would have produced, is fully in keeping with that.
I think you'll find if you look at the goal of Trump being a successful oligarch with the additional goal of self enrichment you'll find all the evidence fits that scenario better than the goal of destroying the USA as a first world country.

Pretty much all of the tax proposal benefits Trump and his heirs.

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Old 23rd November 2017, 05:11 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But I do wonder if the general concept was something that Ford had indeed understood: namely that creating a strong middle class in society was necessary to sell many of the products and services that the mass production businesses of the time were beginning to produce. Not a closed loop (Ford company to Ford workers to Ford car purchases) but an open one in which generally higher salaries (paid not only by Ford but also by similar thinking business owners) would, in a broader way, help expand the number of people in the society who could buy not only cars, but furniture, and radios, and...

Perhaps these ideas were too forward thinking for Ford to ever have had them.
I've no doubt he understood that. The idea of a healthy middle class as the best foundation of a strong society was widespread at the time. It's very clear in fascism, for instance. Ford will certainly have heard of it.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 06:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The American public falls for the same lies from the Right over and over again. Why is that?
Because the left has still not figured out the science of marketing.
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Old 24th November 2017, 06:52 AM   #74
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There's also a theory that many of the voters do not have enough of an understanding of how economics work to be able to make really informed decisions about these bills. That being the case, trying to "market" rational policy can be very difficult.

Quote:
Let's cut taxes and get this economy moving again.
The economy is already moving. As was stated in the OP:
Quote:
U.S. GDP is growing, unemployment is close to 4 percent (below what is commonly considered "full employment"), corporate profits are at record levels and stock markets are soaring.
Whose taxes will get cut? Ask that question of someone who wants to Make America Great Again and you're probably going to find out they don't really know. Or care. How do you "market" rational thinking to people who make decisions that way?
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:34 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think you'll find if you look at the goal of Trump being a successful oligarch with the additional goal of self enrichment you'll find all the evidence fits that scenario better than the goal of destroying the USA as a first world country.

Pretty much all of the tax proposal benefits Trump and his heirs.
Destroying the US is just a bonus.
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:44 AM   #76
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Oops, delete. Posted in wrong thread.
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Old 25th November 2017, 06:35 AM   #77
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A few facts:

Every major tax cut since the early 1900s has been followed by large *increases* in federal revenue. "The Facts About Tax Cuts, Revenue, and Growth," http://miketgriffith.com/files/taxcutfacts.htm .

Our corporate income tax rate is one of the highest in the industrialized world, if not the highest if you add state and local taxes. Liberals whine and cry when a big company lays off workers, but liberals oppose proven measures that will encourage big companies to expand and hire more workers.

Big companies employ at least 1/5 of the American workforce. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help those companies and to encourage them to keep their operations in the U.S.?

Rich people make better use of their money than the government does, in most cases. When you get a home loan, whose money do you think you're borrowing? A good chunk of it comes from the savings and investments of rich people.

Why do liberals pretend to care about small businesses when they demonize small businesses as soon as they become big businesses? If you're a mom and pop small business, liberals will pretend to care deeply about helping you grow. But, oh boy, if you are successful and become a big business, suddenly you're heartless, greedy, and predatory.
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Old 25th November 2017, 11:39 AM   #78
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Why on earth would liberals be against "big business", big business arises from liberal ideas. Before liberalism there wasn't really "big business".
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Old 25th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why on earth would liberals be against "big business", big business arises from liberal ideas. Before liberalism there wasn't really "big business".
Depends if you're talking about classical liberals or US modern ones.
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Old 25th November 2017, 11:54 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by bobtaftfan View Post
A few facts:

Every major tax cut since the early 1900s has been followed by large *increases* in federal revenue. "The Facts About Tax Cuts, Revenue, and Growth," http://miketgriffith.com/files/taxcutfacts.htm .

Our corporate income tax rate is one of the highest in the industrialized world, if not the highest if you add state and local taxes. Liberals whine and cry when a big company lays off workers, but liberals oppose proven measures that will encourage big companies to expand and hire more workers.

Big companies employ at least 1/5 of the American workforce. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help those companies and to encourage them to keep their operations in the U.S.?

Rich people make better use of their money than the government does, in most cases. When you get a home loan, whose money do you think you're borrowing? A good chunk of it comes from the savings and investments of rich people.

Why do liberals pretend to care about small businesses when they demonize small businesses as soon as they become big businesses? If you're a mom and pop small business, liberals will pretend to care deeply about helping you grow. But, oh boy, if you are successful and become a big business, suddenly you're heartless, greedy, and predatory.
Well this certainly reflects the marketed lies about these tax cuts. Funny that every major economist in the country calls BS on these lies except those promoting the GOP/Trump tax cuts for the rich agenda.


Let's look at the facts here: The companies are already cash rich. Any claims that they'd raise wages or grow jobs is bull ****. Clearly that hasn't and isn't going to happen by making the rich richer.

And the estate tax, it's easily shown it's a lie the estate tax is a problem for small family businesses. That has already been addressed by increasing the untaxed margin.

And it is not money that was already taxed. It's huge capital gains that are untaxed and wiped off the books when a person dies and passes on their fortune.


How about instead we increase the minimum wage to stimulate the economy instead of increasing billionaire's assets?

How about we stimulate the economy by investing in infrastructure instead of fattening already fat bank accounts?

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