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Tags gop , tax cuts

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Old 15th December 2017, 02:21 PM   #281
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Pffft. Do you really think he has some special interest in the child tax credit? Rubio is still goal oriented toward becoming POTUS. He wants something that looks good on his record, child tax credits aren't a turn off for Republicans like entitlements are.
Well, I guess if you're going to pass a bill that drives up debt and harms the middle class, at least point to a child tax credit would at least partly offset that.

Hopefully if Rubio does become a candidate the Democrats can still tie the bill to him.
Quote:
Sounds like dropping the mandate was tossed out: Collins
Was it? I hadn't heard anything about the mandate being tossed out. All I heard was that she got some "promises" from the Republican leaders that they'd have a vote later to help prop up some parts of health care. Sounds quite risky.... given how much the republican party is anti-Obamacare. She could have just traded her tax vote for some magic beans.
Quote:
Bunch of oil drilling something or others in: Murkowski
Child tax credit increases: Rubio
They also seem to have gotten Corker on board too. Not sure how.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...x-cuts/548555/

So much of this whole process stinks. Rushing the bill through Congress. All the promises that have been made that may not be viable to keep (e.g. Collin's health care bill promise; Flake got on board partly due to promises for immigration reform.). And the idea that either 1) tax cuts will disappear for many in a few years, leaving many worse off, or 2) the republicans will demand that the tax cuts remain, because "we don't raise taxes", with an even bigger deficit increase later.
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Old 15th December 2017, 02:24 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Didn't we already go through something similar in the first Senate version, where some "holdouts" got enough of a CYA concession to vote with the herd? Or was that some other bait-and-switch scam? It's all running together...
More or less yes.

Of course, some of the details of the bill have changed (which might have been enough for some republicans to change their mind and vote against it.) Plus, the Alabama senate election, combined with the continued unpopularity of the tax bill itself should have been a wake-up call. "Your party is doing unpopular stuff. Maybe you should pull back or risk setbacks in the next election".
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Last edited by Segnosaur; 15th December 2017 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Fixed spelling
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Old 15th December 2017, 02:35 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
....Was it? I hadn't heard anything about the mandate being tossed out. All I heard was that she got some "promises" from the Republican leaders that they'd have a vote later to help prop up some parts of health care. Sounds quite risky.... given how much the republican party is anti-Obamacare. She could have just traded her tax vote for some magic beans....
Not sure, someone posted it upthread with a link to NPR that said they had sources.
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Old 15th December 2017, 02:50 PM   #284
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They've got a few minutes to go -- probably still writing in the margins.
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Old 15th December 2017, 02:59 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They also seem to have gotten Corker on board too. Not sure how.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...x-cuts/548555/

So much of this whole process stinks. Rushing the bill through Congress. All the promises that have been made that may not be viable to keep (e.g. Collin's health care bill promise; Flake got on board partly due to promises for immigration reform.). And the idea that either 1) tax cuts will disappear for many in a few years, leaving many worse off, or 2) the republicans will demand that the tax cuts remain, because "we don't raise taxes", with an even bigger deficit increase later.
I have a feeling Corker has lined up his retirement job. This rush to pass this massively unpopular bill seems like they're mostly making a fatalistic appeal to donors and firms lobbying for it to employ them once they're kicked to curb by the electorate.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:14 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quote:
...Was it? I hadn't heard anything about the mandate being tossed out. All I heard was that she got some "promises" from the Republican leaders that they'd have a vote later to help prop up some parts of health care. Sounds quite risky.... given how much the republican party is anti-Obamacare. She could have just traded her tax vote for some magic beans....
Not sure, someone posted it upthread with a link to NPR that said they had sources.
Are you talking about the post by Meadmaker? He does mention an NPR report talking about "sources", but that was about tuition deductions, not health care.

Plus there is this: https://khn.org/news/listen-collins-...andate-repeal/
Collins says she will vote for the bill even though it repeals the ACA’s mandate that most people buy insurance or pay a penalty. In exchange for that vote, she has assurances that payments for low-income consumers called cost-sharing subsidies will be restored and that a bill to stabilize the markets will move forward. Collins maintains the trade-offs will make up for losing the mandate, but that’s still a question mark.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:23 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Are you talking about the post by Meadmaker? He does mention an NPR report talking about "sources", but that was about tuition deductions, not health care.

Plus there is this: https://khn.org/news/listen-collins-...andate-repeal/
Collins says she will vote for the bill even though it repeals the ACA’s mandate that most people buy insurance or pay a penalty. In exchange for that vote, she has assurances that payments for low-income consumers called cost-sharing subsidies will be restored and that a bill to stabilize the markets will move forward. Collins maintains the trade-offs will make up for losing the mandate, but that’s still a question mark.
Well, MSNBC is saying the elimination of the mandate is in it. That sucks, big time. Collins' support makes her a hypocrite. I've often viewed her as easily manipulated by the other Republicans.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:27 PM   #288
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More about public support for the bill:

From: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...gop-incumbents
A new survey by Priorities USA, a Democratic advocacy group, shows the approval ratings of Republican lawmakers tumble when voters hear about the details of the GOP tax plan.
...
“The results have been striking: after voters are exposed to ads about the tax plan, the job approval numbers for the incumbent drops, and voters are more inclined to vote against the incumbent in next year’s midterm elections,”
...
The survey, by Bully Pulpit Interactive, the digital advertising firm that placed the ads, also showed the campaign increased the Democratic advantage on the generic ballot. A November survey by Priorities USA showed Democrats leading Republicans by 11 points, 45 percent to 34 percent. But after being exposed to the messaging campaign, the Democratic advantage grew to 17 points, 50 percent to 33 percent.

ETA:
This could really backfire on the republicans. I figured that the particulars of next years Senate race (i.e. more Democratic seats up for grabs than republicans) would mean the Democrats couldn't overtake the republicans. This might just make a difference.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:33 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Re: Repeal of the health care mandate and Collin's support

Well, MSNBC is saying the elimination of the mandate is in it. That sucks, big time. Collins' support makes her a hypocrite. I've often viewed her as easily manipulated by the other Republicans.
I guess its a philosophical question about whether someone is a hypocrite if their actions are due to manipulation by others, or whether more free will is needed.

Ironic though... she voted against their health care bill, so she was able to resist manipulation there.
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Old 15th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #290
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Two assessments of the tax proposal:
Quote:
So there are people benefiting from the corporate cuts: people who own a great deal of stock in corporations. In other words, rich people. And it’s not just rich people who are the greatest beneficiaries of this bill, but idle rich people. The bill gives some of its most generous benefits to people who inherit money — they’ll now be exempt from any taxes on the first $11 million.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.009575065ae3

Quote:
If the Republican tax plan passes Congress, it will mark a watershed for the United States. The medium- and long-term effects of the plan will be a massive drop in public investment, which will come on the heels of decades of declining spending (as a percentage of gross domestic product) on infrastructure, scientific research, skills training and core government agencies. The United States can’t coast on past investments forever, and with this legislation, we are ushering in a bleak future.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.baa660dd034c
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Old 16th December 2017, 01:35 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Jones' election surely will impact that comfort.
I agree, they will pass more voter suppression laws and use cross-check more aggressively. DMV's will close in more districts earlier in neighborhoods where minorities are prevalent. They don't care to change voter's minds, they would rather choose who gets to vote.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:05 AM   #292
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Corker's vote flip explained.

Quote:
IBT previously reported that 13 GOP lawmakers directly sculpting the bill —including U.S. House Speaker Paul Ryan — have between $36 million and $163 million worth of ownership stakes in real estate-related LLCs. Those entities generated between $2.6 million and $16 million in “pass through” income and could benefit from the new provision.

Sen. Bob Corker, who was considered a potential “no” vote on the bill, abruptly switched his position upon the release of the final legislation. Federal records reviewed by IBT show that Corker has millions of dollars of ownership stakes in real-estate related LLCs that could also benefit.

“Pass throughs” are business entities that don’t pay corporate income taxes, like partnerships, LLCs and S-Corporations. Instead, they “pass through” income to partners, who then pay personal income taxes on the money they receive. The Senate version of the tax bill would have added a 23 percent deduction for income from pass-throughs to the tax code. The new reconciled tax bill shrinks that deduction to 20 percent but, in a last minute change, added a new way around restrictions that would have kept pass-throughs with large income but few employees from benefiting.

The new bill still has the same income provision but adds a loophole: depreciable property. So instead of being being able to get a large tax cut only if you pay a lot of wages, now you can get the tax cut if you own a lot of property.
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Old 16th December 2017, 06:22 PM   #293
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Until yesterday I had the impression Bob Corker possessed some principles for a Republican. Now I see he's just another calculating, selfish, unprincipled scumbag. He used to say he'd not support an bill that imposed a single dime on the deficit/debt. Now suddenly a freaking trillion dollars is no impediment at all. Any other former holdouts that reveal their turncoat status are heaping themselves in the scumbag boat along with the rest of the slime.

The goddamned shortsightedness is astonishing. And the degree to which these so-called 'lawmakers' pander to the monied interests is obscene. Don't these bastards look farther ahead that a few short years, and think of what they're foisting upon their own children and grandkids? Don't they see that the ever widening gap between the haves and have-nots, and the concentration of wealth into ever fewer pockets, cannot but lead to a tragic outcome? Ah well, probably not before these despicable cretins have already kicked the bucket or descended into a blissful cocoon of dementia.
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Old 17th December 2017, 01:26 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Until yesterday I had the impression Bob Corker possessed some principles for a Republican. Now I see he's just another calculating, selfish, unprincipled scumbag. He used to say he'd not support an bill that imposed a single dime on the deficit/debt. Now suddenly a freaking trillion dollars is no impediment at all. Any other former holdouts that reveal their turncoat status are heaping themselves in the scumbag boat along with the rest of the slime.

The goddamned shortsightedness is astonishing. And the degree to which these so-called 'lawmakers' pander to the monied interests is obscene. Don't these bastards look farther ahead that a few short years, and think of what they're foisting upon their own children and grandkids? Don't they see that the ever widening gap between the haves and have-nots, and the concentration of wealth into ever fewer pockets, cannot but lead to a tragic outcome? Ah well, probably not before these despicable cretins have already kicked the bucket or descended into a blissful cocoon of dementia.
The kindest explanation for the behaviour of the GOP in the House and Senate (partly over this, but more over the Russia links) is that it's an example of groupthink and they are conflating what's good in the short term for their organisation with what's good for the country and the general population.

I am thinking of an analogue to organisational responses to child abuse accusations. People who have what is generally considered a positive trait, namely loyalty, are loyal to the wrong thing.
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Old 17th December 2017, 02:49 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Don't these bastards look farther ahead that a few short years, and think of what they're foisting upon their own children and grandkids?
Their kids and grandkids will be rich, powerful people, so it won't affect them negatively.
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Old 17th December 2017, 04:30 AM   #296
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Corker admits that he's not even read the bill he's approved, and claims that he was unaware of - and doesn't understand - the clause which enriches him

Quote:
“I had like a two-page summary I went through with leadership,” said Corker. “I never saw the actual text.” Despite not reading the bill -- and having time to read it before the final vote scheduled for this week -- he reiterated his support for the bill to IBT, support he announced hours before bill’s full text was publicly released on Friday.

Corker called IBT to respond to a series of IBT investigative reports showing that he switched his vote to “yes” on the tax legislation, only after Republican leaders added in a provision reducing taxes on income from real-estate LLCs. Federal records reviewed by IBT show Corker, a commercial real estate mogul, made up to $7 million last year from such income. President Donald Trump's financial disclosures listed between $41 million and $68 million of the same income.

After the report, Corker called IBT and asked for a detailed description of the provision, insisting he did not know about. After the provision was described, he said: “If I understand what [the provision] does, it sounds totally unnecessary and borderline ridiculous.”

A few minutes later, however, Corker called back, and tried to back off that criticism.

“I don’t really know what the provision does to be honest. I would need an accountant to explain it,” Corker said. “I had no knowledge of this and would have no knowledge of it except for you guys are calling me about it. I have no idea whatsoever whether it impacts me or doesn’t impact me.”
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Old 17th December 2017, 04:38 AM   #297
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Corker; you broke my heart. I had real hopes of your being a man of principle. You can rot in your own fetid waste like the rest of the swamp creatures. A pox on you and the GOP!
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:04 AM   #298
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John Conryn just straight up admitted they bought Corker off.
@JohnCornyn tells @ThisWeekABC that last-minute provision enriching @SenBobCorker & other GOP lawmakers was added to the tax bill as part of an effort to “cobble together the votes we needed to get this bill passed”
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:25 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Corker; you broke my heart. I had real hopes of your being a man of principle. You can rot in your own fetid waste like the rest of the swamp creatures. A pox on you and the GOP!
I'm in TN, too. I was hoping he had some morality left, as well.
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:27 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Best democracy money can buy.
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:28 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm in TN, too. I was hoping he had some morality left, as well.
You're hoping the guy that ran on, "Harold Ford Jr. dates white women," attack ads has morality? Can I interest you in some ocean front property in Colorado?
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:49 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
You're hoping the guy that ran on, "Harold Ford Jr. dates white women," attack ads has morality? Can I interest you in some ocean front property in Colorado?
It really looked like he might be having some midnight crisis of conscience. I'll totally fess up to a proneness to wishful thinking, though.
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Old 17th December 2017, 01:57 PM   #303
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Did we Tennesseeans get some serious pork out of this at least? Federal Permission to timber harvest the Smokies perhaps?

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Old 18th December 2017, 07:34 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Did we Tennesseeans get some serious pork out of this at least? Federal Permission to timber harvest the Smokies perhaps?


I think you got a rock.
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:05 AM   #305
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Article detailing which senators are benefiting from the bill, and how much by

Article breaking down an analysis of the bill by the Tax Policy Centre
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:18 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How is this not a scandal ?

Why isn't the Democratic Party going crazy over this ?
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:24 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
How is this not a scandal ?

Why isn't the Democratic Party going crazy over this ?

Because democracy is dead. It died quietly while no-one was paying much attention.

Nobody mourned.
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Old 19th December 2017, 04:07 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
How is this not a scandal ?
Because their constituents don't care. They have an R after their name so they can do no wrong and moral failings like sexually assaulting children or writing tax code to personally benefit you are not reasons not to vote for someone.
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Old 19th December 2017, 04:21 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because democracy is dead. It died quietly while no-one was paying much attention.

Nobody mourned.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because their constituents don't care. They have an R after their name so they can do no wrong and moral failings like sexually assaulting children or writing tax code to personally benefit you are not reasons not to vote for someone.
Is there a solution to this at all, or do people in the US just have to accept that this is the way it is ?

People get enraged about all kinds of things (feet on desk, Dijon mustard, tan suits) why can't the Democratic Party generate a full head of outrage over something substantive like this ? This seems like exactly the thing to start talking about now so that it's fixed in people's heads by the time the elections roll around in 2018.
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Old 19th December 2017, 04:39 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Is there a solution to this at all, or do people in the US just have to accept that this is the way it is ?

People get enraged about all kinds of things (feet on desk, Dijon mustard, tan suits) why can't the Democratic Party generate a full head of outrage over something substantive like this ? This seems like exactly the thing to start talking about now so that it's fixed in people's heads by the time the elections roll around in 2018.
Because everyone likely to be outraged by this already is. Getting tax bills like this was so important that the mainstream republican answer was to vote for a child predator, why would a little corruption and theft bother them now?
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Old 19th December 2017, 04:45 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because everyone likely to be outraged by this already is. Getting tax bills like this was so important that the mainstream republican answer was to vote for a child predator, why would a little corruption and theft bother them now?
I don't know, perhaps some of the Independent voters and possibly even the last few Republicans with a shred of decency might not yet realise the extent to which Republican representatives were enriching themselves at the expense of the poor and middle classes.

Perhaps because one thing that the GOP has shown for the past couple of decades is that if you repeat something enough it becomes the truth regardless of whether or not it has a basis in fact. IMO the Democratic Party needs to identify two or three memes to push for the 2018 elections*, Republicans lining up at the trough could be one of them.

* - I also think they need attractive candidates and appealing policies and positive messages that chime with the electorate. Baby steps, baby steps.
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Old 19th December 2017, 06:40 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Oh, you're right.

Corker, a wealthy real-estate developer, suddenly switched from "no" to "yes" when a provision was added to the bill that would net him millions.

Of course, that had nothing to do with it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...alarms-n830931

I can't believe this is happening.
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Old 19th December 2017, 06:48 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Is there a solution to this at all, or do people in the US just have to accept that this is the way it is ?

People get enraged about all kinds of things (feet on desk, Dijon mustard, tan suits) why can't the Democratic Party generate a full head of outrage over something substantive like this ? This seems like exactly the thing to start talking about now so that it's fixed in people's heads by the time the elections roll around in 2018.


When I get my car serviced, I'm always amazed by the amount of performance that it's regained that I didn't know it was missing.

When things deteriorate slowly, it's difficult to notice and difficult to get all active about.

Add into that constant attacks on the government by corporate interests who talk bollocks about small government when what they mean is they don't like their antisocial activities being curtailed.

Add into that the fact that democracy is being destroyed by the very rich, incidentally the people that own the media that would normally be place for outrage.


US democracy is now bought and sold with no shame. De Voss wants 'a return on her investment', the FCC have almost literally auctioned off control of the net and taken money in to pay for it, US government officials take bribes to release peoples browsing history.

It's okay though, because eventually the US will have the smallest possible government (like Somalia).

I wouldn't mind so much except, for reasons I can't fathom, the UK always seems desperate to follow the US way and, more worrying, is that the US allows to be crated entities that can literally bully entire countries.

Jefferson got it right
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Old 19th December 2017, 07:48 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Oh, you're right.

Corker, a wealthy real-estate developer, suddenly switched from "no" to "yes" when a provision was added to the bill that would net him millions.

Of course, that had nothing to do with it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...alarms-n830931

I can't believe this is happening.
It is almost as if all republican politicians are only out to make as much money as possible and have no deep seated values or morals they would let get in the way of that.
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Old 19th December 2017, 08:18 AM   #315
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Don't you all see the nicely parched land?
Finally the swamp has been drained.
It's so good. Breath the fresh air.

Ahh, lovely.
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Old 19th December 2017, 08:47 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because democracy is dead. It died quietly while no-one was paying much attention.

Nobody mourned.

Too busy getting our Kardashian fix.
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Old 19th December 2017, 09:11 AM   #317
3point14
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Too busy getting our Kardashian fix.

Probably.
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Old 19th December 2017, 10:48 AM   #318
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Huffington Post journalist Matt Fuller has been asking Republican Congressmen due to vote on the bill a few hours from the time of asking whether they could name the tax brackets.

1 out of 18 could, at the time of the last tweet.
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Old 19th December 2017, 11:03 AM   #319
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Blowing Up the Deficit Is Part of the Plan

Quote:
President Trump’s corporate tax cuts will likely generate enormous deficits, even if the administration’s rosiest economic forecasts come true, setting Republicans up to claim that the time has come to cut Social Security, Medicare, and welfare to reduce the expected $1 trillion deficit, created by those very tax cuts, over the next 10 years.
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Old 19th December 2017, 02:23 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Oh, you're right.

Corker, a wealthy real-estate developer, suddenly switched from "no" to "yes" when a provision was added to the bill that would net him millions.

Of course, that had nothing to do with it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...alarms-n830931

I can't believe this is happening.
It's just grotesquely surreal.
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