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#321 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,965
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Okay we say that but we've been tricked into a level, tone, and language that... well says that's not true.
By letting the very concept of "Materialism" become such a talking point that we keep coming back to we have presented "Reality is a thing" as just another opinion we're defending. Again we've let Jabba and a handful of pedantic hangers on goad us into a in a discussion where "Reality exists" is just another subjective POV. Again we need to stop letting Jabba and the varsity pedantic run in squad force us into an argument where we can't use reality as a valid concept. No. You may not. Jabba I know you are totally beyond understanding how rude you are being but no. You have to address your opponents arguments, not the arguments you wish they had made because that makes your job easier. Again Jabba we're not actors in your play. Our job here is not to make your arguing your nonsense as easy on you as possible. It's frustrating enough when you are discussing something with someone that thinks the only way to argue with someone is to trick them into a "gotcha." It's even worse when the person sucks at it. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#322 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,343
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#323 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,743
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#324 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 1,658
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#325 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,920
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"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something. So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..." David Mitchell |
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#326 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 1,658
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Jabba...
“You know how you sound…? Like a man who’s trying to convince himself of something he doesn’t believe in his heart.” /Casablanca |
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#327 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,343
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I think deep down, jabba's a rank sentimentalist.
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#328 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 1,658
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Jabba
"it doesn’t take much to see that the problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you’ll understand that.” In other words, the universe doesn't care about your childish desire to never die. |
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#329 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,451
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Assuming the prevailing materialistic explanation of your existence:
You shouldn't see any reason to be shocked that you exist rather than someone else. You should, however, be shocked that you exist at all. You should not, however, be shocked that other equally unlikely things exist, unless the existence of the universe shocks you. The fact that one of those immensely unlikely things is "you" gives you a specific perspective, which gives rise to probabilistic significance. If you don't think your specific body is the only one that could be you, then you are repeatable, therefore immortal in a sense. If you do think that body is the only body that could be you, then the probability of an alternate universe in which you exist is zero. That specific body is part of this universe and no other. See above. The probability that your specific body could be in another place, time, or universe is zero. A specific body is part and parcel of the specific universe that gave rise to it. If other bodies can be "you", then you can exist more than once. If we are part of an eternally inflating multiverse, as existing theory suggests, then you would be essentially immortal - again, if other bodies can be "you". If you believe no other body could ever be "you", then you should be shocked that "you" exist at all. If you believe that, then you are flirting with immortality yourself. |
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"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump |
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#330 |
Alta Viro
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,054
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I thought I made a good analogy (as did many others) quite a while ago when we were talking about VWs. (As an aside, we've gone through VWs, Mt. Rainier, bread...) I mentioned a famous VW named Herbie. This vehicle was driven by actor Dean Jones through the streets of Monte Carlo and immortalized on film. If that VW were parked at an auto show, many people would take pictures of it, want to touch it, and tell their friends they saw it.*
An exact duplicate of this VW would not be treated the same, assuming that it was known that this was a duplicate. If someone said they had a replica of Herbie, it would not garner the same level of excitement. Yet if you put these two vehicles next to each other, no one would be able to tell one from the other. So what makes the original Herbie VW so special? Simply human sentimentality. There is no other difference, by definition of this thought experiment. If the two vehicles were moved around and no one was keeping track of which was the original, then we could never know. This information would be lost forever. The original Herbie would have lost its sentimentality. People could take their picture with either Herbie and it wouldn't matter with which one. It is the same for human brains. Jabba is stuck on the fact the the copy wouldn't be him and that is the difference. But by definition, the copy is thinking the same thing. Neither Jabba nor the copy would know which one they were. As they each moved on with their lives, no one would ever know. There would be two Jabbas, each as valid as the other. The copy would be every bit Jabba as the other one. He doesn't understand that the copy would have independent thoughts in his (the copy's) head thinking, "I'm Jabba. I'm meeeeeee. The other guy is a copy. I'm different." In every duplication thought experiment we have brought up, Jabba continues with his assertion that the difference is that the first one was the fiiiiiiiirst one and that this it is significant. * Some time ago I read about someone saying that we place undue importance on people and objects that are on TV. As an example, a grapefruit is benign and doesn't hold much interest for people in general. But if we broadcast a live image of this grapefruit for 30 minutes a day and called it The Grapefruit Show, people would place importance on it. The grapefruit could be taken on a national tour and people would see it and say excitedly, "That's the grapefruit from TV!" |
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#331 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
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Dave,
- Re #1: OK. - Re #2: I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU. - Re #3: The different books on consciousness that I have read all say something to the effect that nothing in modern physics actually explains consciousness. It's a mystery! |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#332 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,965
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__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#333 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16,437
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That's because, as we have repeatedly been telling you, such individualized specificity of the process as you propose it is not a concept in the scientific model. Now do you believe us?
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All the books you've cited before on various subjects related to this debate have been "woo" books, so we don't trust that you've done actual scientific homework. |
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#334 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,259
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#335 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Springwood, NJ
Posts: 29,519
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#336 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,056
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I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
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#337 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,421
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Nice one, Jabba, you almost slipped this one by by avoiding use of “agree” in any of its forms! But you couldn’t get it past Jay. And had I not been one the other side of the world, sleeping, I would have busted you on it. The main reason I’ve followed this thread is to play spot-the-fallacy. These days it’s become more a game of spot-the-dishonesty. |
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#338 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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#339 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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#340 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,965
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I'd love to get an answer out of Jabba as to what he can possibly get out of this discussion.
Even if we all just magically start agreeing with him, even if his goal is to just quote mine us for his "roadmap" nonsense. Even if this is trolling it's weird. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#341 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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#342 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,343
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#343 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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#344 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,965
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There I guess that solves that. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#345 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,485
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No, I shouldn't; that would be a prima facie example of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. But in any case that's irrelevant, because it's not Jabba's argument; his entire "infinite pool of selves" concept is intended to address the fact that he exists rather than someone else.
No, it doesn't. To go back to your Putin analogy, "People whom Vladimir Putin want dead" is an a priori specification, and "people who are me" an a posteriori specification, when discussing the probability of there being a person who is me. Probabilistic significance requires an a priori specification. And this is stretching definitions beyond breaking point. "Immortal" does not mean "capable of being reproduced," it means that the process of the self does not terminate. If your argument is based on redefining words then it's no more valid than if you redefined "Immortal" to mean "a pale shade of purple grey." Dave |
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#346 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#347 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,753
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Remember: the "books on consciousness" Jabba has read seem to be books like the one he references here. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#348 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,358
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Jabba,* you're reduced to saying, "I claim that my claim is true because I claim that it's a true claim." I can't see much future in that.
* Kumar calls you Jebba. Don't put up with that! |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#349 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
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- So anyway.
1. I'm happy to use the materialist model of self-awareness that depends entirely upon the particular sperm-ovum combination. Whatever, the likelihood of the current existence of my particular self-awareness is still less than 1/10100. 2. Though, I still don't accept that model myself. 3. Then, it seems to me that what is being described as that model is more like the model I've suggested -- that a certain physical state produces (or "receives"), as an emergent property, what we call "consciousness," which naturally involves a brand new, and specific self-awareness -- nowhere is it suggested that a perfect copy of my brain would produce ME (my particular self-awareness). Where did I come from? |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#350 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,726
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#351 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,259
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#352 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16,437
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Do you really think we're not going to immediately see the straw man? Do you really think your critics are that stupid or inattentive? Even worse, this particular straw man has already been repudiated. You have to use the materialist model as it is already formulated, not as you redefine it.
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Entities don't "receive" properties. That's not what it means to be a property.
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#353 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Springwood, NJ
Posts: 29,519
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And if you had honestly stopped here, you would have been fine.
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#354 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,753
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Yes, we are all aware that you are fully prepared to lie about the materialist model of consciousness if you think it will help your argument. It doesn't because everyone knows it's a lie.
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Unsupported, and probably irrelevant.
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Nor does anyone else, because it's a strawman that you have made up.
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That's "being described as that model" by nobody but you, because it's a lie you have made up.
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Doesn't it say on your birth certificate? |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#355 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,965
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Oh stop it with the cutesy poo passive aggressiveness. You haven't earned it.
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You, and I don't me a generic "you" I mean you specifically, not accepting something counts for absolutely nothing. You don't accept that process exist and that 1 and 2 aren't the same number.
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At this point Jabba just accept that the most basic concepts of how the universe works are too complicated for you to understand. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#356 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,343
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#357 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 453
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You are the music playing on the orchestra of your body and brain, the result of a program running on your organic computer, a process that is self aware when it's running, thinks it's continuous but isn't.
Your self awareness isn't a thing at all. Like music or the output of a computer program it is the result of a process wholly dependent on the physical things that generate it. The orchestra doesn't "receive" the music from anywhere when it starts playing, and the music doesn't continue when the orchestra stops playing. According to materialism, "You" are a process. An incredibly complex intermittently self-aware process, but nonetheless just a process that is completely generated by and dependent on your body and brain. |
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#358 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,753
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#359 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,451
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No it wouldn't. I think you're trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.
Back when all the smart people believed the earth was the entire universe (because the earth was all they could see), I might have said, "Not likely. It is unlikely that all we can see just happens to coincide with all that exists. Plus, it is too ludicrously unlikely that a universe consisting of one little planet would have produced sentient life. There must be very, very many planets." The smart people were wrong back then, but I would have been right. Oh. Like "bodies that could be you" is an a priori specification, and "the body that is you" is a posterior specification? Back when all the smart people believed the planets in the Sol system were the only planets that existed (because the bodies in the solar system were the only things they could see that moved), I might have said, "Not likely. It is unlikely that all we can see that moves just happens to coincide with all that exists. Plus, it is too ludicrously unlikely that a universe consisting of one paltry little collection of planets would have produced sentient life. There must be very, very many planets." The smart people were wrong back then, but I would have been right. I don't mind stretching that definition beyond the breaking point. It needs to be stretched beyond the breaking point. It is inadequate. |
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"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump |
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#360 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,743
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I'm sure it would violate the membership agreement, but I suspect I could make a bot that posts like Jabba. Give it some talking points, teach it to randomly quote people and then ask variations on the same questions with a few words from the other people's posts spliced in mindlessly...
Originally Posted by JABBABOT
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