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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 12th February 2018, 06:26 AM   #1841
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

sounds like an officer is a member.
If Perkins paid his check for his general counsel services, I don't think that describes an officially joined person at all.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:01 AM   #1842
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
As you well know the quote in request of attribution was exactly the one printed in bold in the Nunes memo and referred by cmikes in post #1729 in proper quotation marks. Ask Upchurch to play your game by denying that this was what he was asking for just because of how he worded his request. Do it now.
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
He really dares to ask you, Upchurch.
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
According to Squeegee Beckenheim, you did not want to know the source of the quotation about Steele brought into the thread by cmikes. So I am guilty of delivering something you did not ask for. Instead, you asked for where Steele claimed to be a partisan hack, which shows how stoopit cmikes and I am, because obviously he never claimed to be a partisan hack.
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
That people continue to engage, even after this level of gaslighting, is mind boggling to me.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:08 AM   #1843
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But you know what, I'm just an A-hole who rejects frames of reference accepted by the majority culture left and right. I think you have a good argument spread over about a dozen posts. Most people won't reject a legal framework. I think that saying he both occupies a place in the campaign and the the law firm as a legal matter is fair. And while you can't prove that he knew Steele was hired, the law addresses this nigh impossible bar by recognising imputed knowledge.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If Perkins paid his check for his general counsel services, I don't think that describes an officially joined person at all.
'k. We agree to disagree.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:21 AM   #1844
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It seems to mean that the argument boils down to:

Clinton is shrewd political operator and therefore guilty.

Trump is clueless moron when it comes to politics and therefore innocent.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:27 AM   #1845
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It seems to mean that the argument boils down to:

Clinton is shrewd political operator and therefore guilty.

Trump is clueless moron when it comes to politics and therefore innocent.
I've also read, on this forum, that Trump's lies are so obvious that it proves he's honest.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:47 AM   #1846
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
That people continue to engage, even after this level of gaslighting, is mind boggling to me.

How Establishment Propaganda Gaslights Us Into Submission

Originally Posted by Caitlin Johnstone
[...] We see the same thing today with the establishment Syria narrative and the Russiagate psy-op, which are both riddled with plot holes and depend on the irrational position that the same establishment which manufactured support for the Iraq invasion using lies is now beneficent and trustworthy. But if you point out the many reasons to be skeptical of these narratives, you belong in the crazy box.

The good news is that there is an easy remedy for this tactic. We need only to be thoroughly confident in our own judgment.

History has testified unequivocally that extreme skepticism is the only rational response to have toward establishment narratives, especially when those narratives are beating the drums of war. The U.S. war machine has an extensive history of using lies, false flags and propaganda to manufacture support for its bloodthirsty agendas, and the adage that truth is the first casualty of war holds up flawlessly in cases of both hot war and cold war. It is simply self-evident that there is no good reason to take these people at their word, and every reason not to.

Your own educated best guess about what is going on in the world is infinitely superior to placing unquestioning faith in an establishment which has a vested interest in lying to you and a demonstrable history of doing so. Trust yourself and have full confidence that your conclusions, however imperfect, are always superior to those of known liars and manipulators.

Never, ever let anyone bully and cajole you for being skeptical of mainstream narratives instead of believing the say-so of malignant deceivers. Trust yourself. You are not being crazy, you are behaving logically. Don’t let them gaslight you.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:49 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
That people continue to engage, even after this level of gaslighting, is mind boggling to me.
Well, I only re-engaged when I was called out and couldn't tell what I was being called out for.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:55 AM   #1848
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Responds to an accusation of gaslighting with an attempt at meta-gaslighting, linking to an article about gaslighting in a effort to pretend that this is the gaslighting that was being discussed.

Nice.
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Old 12th February 2018, 08:10 AM   #1849
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A reprint on Consortium News, from a good year ago, aged very well: Donald Trump vs. The Spooks

Originally Posted by Annie Machon
[...] If I were an American, I would be wary of many of Trump’s domestic policies. As a European concerned with greater peace rather than increasing war, I can only applaud his constructive approach towards Russia and his offer to cooperate with Moscow to stanch the bloodshed in the Middle East.

That, of course, may be the nub of his fight with the CIA and other vested interests who want Russia as the new bogeyman. But I would bet that Trump takes the CIA’s slurs personally. After all, given the ugliness of the accusations and the lack of proof, who would not?

So, this is a world championship heavy-weight fight over who gets to hold office and wield power, an area where the U.S. and U.K. intelligence agencies have considerable experience in rigging matches and knocking out opponents. Think, for instance, Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadeq in 1953; Chilean President Salvador Allende in 1973; Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in 2003; and Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in 2011. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is wobbly but still standing, thanks to some good corner support from Russia.

However, it would appear that Trump is a stranger to the spies’ self-defined Queensbury Rules in which targets are deemed paranoid if they try to alert the public to the planned “regime change” or they become easy targets by staying silent. By contrast, Trump appears shameless and pugnacious. Street-smart and self-promoting, he seems comfortable with bare-knuckle fighting.

This match has already gone into the middle rounds with Trump still bouncing around on his toes and still relishing the fight. It would be ironic if out of this nasty prize fight came greater world peace and safely for us all.
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Old 12th February 2018, 08:30 AM   #1850
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Ooh! The spooks!
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Old 12th February 2018, 09:05 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
A reprint on Consortium News, from a good year ago, aged very well: Donald Trump vs. The Spooks
Yeah, hoping that Little Donnie Big Button would bring world peace by giving Putin the Ukraine and Syria has "aged very well" as he has brought back nuclear brinksmanship and threatened to invade punk countries like Venezuela.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:53 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
To the Trumpists, if by accident Hillary's shadow happened to fall on a scrap of paper, whatever words it contained would perforce be the directives of Satan, however innocent they might first appear.

To that same lot, Donnie Jr. and co meeting *directly* with foreign nationals to get dirt carries not the slightest whiff of impropriety.

Yet they shrilly squawk when Hillary would deign to avail of the proceeds of a legal process of oppo research started first by a Republican.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:59 AM   #1853
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is partisan to the extent Democrats would equally fall in line if he ran as a democrat.
Snort.
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:05 AM   #1854
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Snort.
I don't understand what people disagree with in that statement.
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:09 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand what people disagree with in that statement.
It's an absurd hypothetical.
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:29 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:42 AM   #1857
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It's an absurd hypothetical.
I didn't define an extent. I said, "to the extent."
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:49 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't define an extent. I said, "to the extent."
No Democrat would have supported Trump had he run with a D.

The Dem party would not have allowed Trump to become their candidate.

There's a reason Trump ran on the GOP, because he knew he'd be at least marginally successful. Even he didn't realize how successful he would be.

Your repeated implication that the Left would have made the same mistake as the GOP is completely absurd, and that's why people are disagreeing or laughing at it. It's a terrible implication based on absolutely nothing at all.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:00 PM   #1859
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

Your repeated implication that the Left would have made the same mistake as the GOP is completely absurd,
I did not imply that.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:02 PM   #1860
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No Democrat would have supported Trump had he run with a D.

The Dem party would not have allowed Trump to become their candidate.

There's a reason Trump ran on the GOP, because he knew he'd be at least marginally successful. Even he didn't realize how successful he would be.

Your repeated implication that the Left would have made the same mistake as the GOP is completely absurd, and that's why people are disagreeing or laughing at it. It's a terrible implication based on absolutely nothing at all.
I think you're misreading what Bob has said. Yes, there are some Dems who would have supported Trump as a Dem but probably very few. A non-zero number shall we say.

And it doesn't appear any of Bob's arguments are relying on Dems being just as partizan or supporting Trump in large numbers. He is simply describing what aspects of it could be partizan.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:06 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No Democrat would have supported Trump had he run with a D.

The Dem party would not have allowed Trump to become their candidate.
In fact, the usual claim is that Sanders got screwed because he wasn't a party insider. What makes Bob think Trump would've fared better is beyond me.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:07 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In fact, the usual claim is that Sanders got screwed because he wasn't a party insider. What makes Bob think Trump would've fared better is beyond me.
I don't think that.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:08 PM   #1863
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I think you're misreading what Bob has said. Yes, there are some Dems who would have supported Trump as a Dem but probably very few. A non-zero number shall we say.

And it doesn't appear any of Bob's arguments are relying on Dems being just as partizan or supporting Trump in large numbers. He is simply describing what aspects of it could be partizan.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is partisan to the extent Democrats would equally fall in line if he ran as a democrat.
Didn't this all stem from the above comment? If I'm misreading it, I'm all for apologizing, and I do. I'm not sure how else to take that, but I've been wrong before.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:13 PM   #1864
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Didn't this all stem from the above comment? If I'm misreading it, I'm all for apologizing, and I do. I'm not sure how else to take that, but I've been wrong before.
I said, "to the extent." If you think democratic support would be near zero, then democrat opposition to trump would have a near zero partisan basis. If you think support would have been high, then democrat opposition to trump is likely highly due to partisanship.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:18 PM   #1865
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said, "to the extent." If you think democratic support would be near zero, then democrat opposition to trump would have a near zero partisan basis. If you think support would have been high, then democrat opposition to trump is likely highly due to partisanship.
Let's just pretend I didn't say anything. I apologize, this isn't a conversation I have any desire to partake in, thanks for the reply.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:46 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'd love to know these "plot holes" in "the Russiagate psy-op". The last article from that site I read was mischaracterising the Strozk texts, accepting the presence of a "deep state" as a given, and not asking whether their own narrative had any "plot holes" - the most obvious one being that if there were a conspiracy within the FBI to win the election for Clinton, then why in the run-up to the election did the FBI release 2 statements saying that Clinton was under a criminal investigation (after Republicans forced the re-opening of the email investigation) and release a statement saying that Trump was not under criminal investigation, even though he was? In what way are those actions supposed to have helped Clinton? What possible potential outcome of those actions could have harmed Trump's campaign and/or helped Clintons?
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Old 12th February 2018, 09:22 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rule of so.


Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Anyone have the first clue what the allegedly “indefensible claim” aridas is talking about? Because that rant would not give anyone the first clue.
Either you're playing dumb or you were too busy making up crap to try to put into my mouth to actually read what was said in the initial and following posts.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:15 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post


Either you're playing dumb or you were too busy making up crap to try to put into my mouth to actually read what was said in the initial and following posts.
So there is no "indefensible claim." It is groovy, we all know already....
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:30 AM   #1869
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
In what way are those actions supposed to have helped Clinton? What possible potential outcome of those actions could have harmed Trump's campaign and/or helped Clintons?
That's obvious to anyone who's been playing attention. Don't you remember the Dem outrage at the time? It got your side all fired up to vote for the poor underdog.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:55 AM   #1870
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A Russian opposition leader posted a YouTube video of an oligarch entertaining politicians on his yard, girls included. Russia is so upset about this that they might block all of YouTube for their citizens.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-navalny-video

The Oligarch in question had close ties with Manafort.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:46 PM   #1871
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'd love to know these "plot holes" in "the Russiagate psy-op". The last article from that site I read was mischaracterising the Strozk texts, accepting the presence of a "deep state" as a given, and not asking whether their own narrative had any "plot holes" - the most obvious one being that if there were a conspiracy within the FBI to win the election for Clinton, then why in the run-up to the election did the FBI release 2 statements saying that Clinton was under a criminal investigation (after Republicans forced the re-opening of the email investigation) and release a statement saying that Trump was not under criminal investigation, even though he was? In what way are those actions supposed to have helped Clinton? What possible potential outcome of those actions could have harmed Trump's campaign and/or helped Clintons?
No normal person, looking at what happened during the 2016 election would have the slightest suspicion that the FBI was acting against Trump, and indeed the Trumpists didn't claim it at the time either. Like the yarn about Clinton making stuff up about Trump and paying Steele to read it back to her so she could fail to use it in her campaign, it defies all reason. But, as you say, assume the Deep State as a given and what she (and Obama and the FBI) were doing was setting up to undermine the Trump Presidency they knew was coming, and they're doing that now.

Clinton arranged the Trump Tower meeting. Believe me. Clinton arranged the Trump Tower meeting. Why isn't the FBI investigating that?
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:55 PM   #1872
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The FBI was actually against Hillary, looking for any legal way to sabotage her election. Heck, the NY branch illegally leaked information to Rudy Gullioni for him to talk about on Fox News. They purposefully held the "new evidence" of Weiner's wife's emails until 10 days before the election just to tank her poll numbers. They didn't mention that Trump was under investigation at all. The FBI were considered heroes by Fox News and Republicans.

It's amazing what loyalty to a demagogue can do to people's memories and opinions. Now, Fox News hates the FBI and is claiming the FBI helped to get Hillary elected. This revisionism is easily debunked, yet here we are.
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:05 PM   #1873
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:17 PM   #1874
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A Russian opposition leader posted a YouTube video of an oligarch entertaining politicians on his yard, girls included.
Clinton arranged that party, George Soros provided the girls, and Steele did the catering. Also, Navalny is a Nazi and "Nastya Rybka" is a made-up name.
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:21 PM   #1875
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The FBI was actually against Hillary, looking for any legal way to sabotage her election. Heck, the NY branch illegally leaked information to Rudy Gullioni for him to talk about on Fox News.
Somebody in the NY FBI office is not "the FBI". Lets keep a grip on reality, however unreal the times are.
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:28 PM   #1876
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Somebody in the NY FBI office is not "the FBI". Lets keep a grip on reality, however unreal the times are.
He claimed many FBI agents, both former and active, in the NY branch at the time. Also, the FBI was firmly composed of Trump supporters. So maybe I was a little hyperbolic, but not much.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:11 PM   #1877
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The FBI was actually against Hillary, looking for any legal way to sabotage her election. Heck, the NY branch illegally leaked information to Rudy Gullioni for him to talk about on Fox News. They purposefully held the "new evidence" of Weiner's wife's emails until 10 days before the election just to tank her poll numbers. They didn't mention that Trump was under investigation at all. The FBI were considered heroes by Fox News and Republicans.

It's amazing what loyalty to a demagogue can do to people's memories and opinions. Now, Fox News hates the FBI and is claiming the FBI helped to get Hillary elected. This revisionism is easily debunked, yet here we are.
Because facts don't matter.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:53 PM   #1878
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After the lack of WMDs in Iraq, the Bush administration threw the intelligence agencies under the bus, especially the CIA: many of the best people quit to work in private outfits.
Trump and the GOP are doing the same to the FBI and the DOJ.
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Old 13th February 2018, 10:20 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So there is no "indefensible claim." It is groovy, we all know already....
Do you consider it your win when I no longer consider the possibility that you're not trolling to be even slightly credible?
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Old 13th February 2018, 10:43 PM   #1880
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He claimed many FBI agents, both former and active, in the NY branch at the time. Also, the FBI was firmly composed of Trump supporters. So maybe I was a little hyperbolic, but not much.
...

FBI folks tend to be loyal to the FBI over any single politician. Guiliani was basically "in" due to his connections as a prosecutor. He was more important than any love for Trump, or hatred of Clinton, as far as this goes.
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