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Old 11th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #161
Darat
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Children are not ladies past the age of sexual maturity in this line of reasoning. I explained that clearly in a previous post.






You can't read minds but you can judge consent by what people show?




Nobody is going to put you in jail, so yes, you are allowed to look. You are not allowed to look while expecting not to be called a pervert, and you are not allowed to slut-shame the woman you're oogling without social consequences.
What is perverted about looking at secondary sexual characteristics? I really think your use of "pervert" is very wrong, what you are saying is that anyone who even notices by a glance the secondary sexual characteristics of anyone in public is a pervert. In other words pretty much every human is a pervert.

With that out of the way, what do you think looking in a public place at a women's cleavage has to do with a boss groping a single mother of 2 telling her she can put up with it if she wants to keep her job?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope. It makes someone a pervert to oogle boobs that he happens to see in public but clearly weren't put on display for him. It makes him an ******* to then slut-shame the woman berating him for his perverted behavior.
If you think it's outside of the realm of usual behaviour, i.e. perverted, for a grown man to look at a grown woman's breasts (again, with all the anthropology that comes with) then I think your views are unreasonable in the real world.

For me, perversion requires a great deal more than that.


Quote:
Look, I'm a guy too. I like to see pretty ladies. That doesn't mean I think it's appropriate behavior for me to oogle women in public. Social codes like this isn't really hard to learn. Have a cheeky glance, and if she catches you, apologize. If she calls you a pervert, simply say "sorry miss, won't happen again" and walk away. It's not *********** rocket science.

If one's caught, one doesn't apologise. One grins and says 'how you doin?'

And, (It's distressing that I have to point this out), if she says "**** off creep", one doesn't press one's suit. One simply smiles and looks elsewhere. Probably glancing back every now and then at the cleavage on the angry woman.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No part. It's perfectly clear. Hence my post.
If it is displayed "in public", then I or anyone else is allowed to look.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:30 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No it isn't.

I'm saying that ladies who wear low cut tops should not get upset if men look.
I have never heard them being upset for looking, it is the staring and talking to their breasts that they typically object to.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:31 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What is perverted about looking at secondary sexual characteristics? I really think your use of "pervert" is very wrong, what you are saying is that anyone who even notices by a glance the secondary sexual characteristics of anyone in public is a pervert. In other words pretty much every human is a pervert.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're all more or less perverted, as in, we find certain situations that go beyond social norms sexually arousing. That doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
With that out of the way, what do you think looking in a public place at a women's cleavage has to do with a boss groping a single mother of 2 telling her she can put up with it if she wants to keep her job?
Absolutely nothing. It's very sad that this is the discussion we're having in this thread.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:31 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, we're talking about the same story, but you left off the end where the slut-shaming occured.
Apologies, yes, I did miss that bit.

Given that she initiated the confrontation when he literally had his back to her, no it's not slut shaming. It's simply pointing out the way of the world to an obnoxious woman who thought she could shame a man in public with impunity.

Had she not ventured a confrontation one would not have happened.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:32 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you think it's outside of the realm of usual behaviour, i.e. perverted, for a grown man to look at a grown woman's breasts (again, with all the anthropology that comes with) then I think our views are unreasonable in the real world.

For me, perversion requires a great deal more than that.
In public, against the wishes of the stared upon, yes. I do not think I'm alone in this.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If one's caught, one doesn't apologise. One grins and says 'how you doin?'

And, (It's distressing that I have to point this out), if she says "**** off creep", one doesn't press one's suit. One simply smiles and looks elsewhere. Probably glancing back every now and then at the cleavage on the angry woman.
There's the problem.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:32 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are you trying to paint me as some sort of paedophile? Why the hell are you talking about children now.
It is about how much you actually believe your own arguments when applied slightly differently. Men can stare at what they find sexually arousing and that is fine, but apparently only with some arcane set of caveats that if it doesn't meet you can call them out on it.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:33 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If it is displayed "in public", then I or anyone else is allowed to look.
Allowed, as in, legally, yes. You are still violating social norms, and you are have no grounds to complain if you are called out.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:33 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A public space, like a beach. Yes, you need consent if you are filming people.




The man in the story we're discussing was slut-shaming the woman in the story.
In the UK you don't need permission from passerbys to photograph them in a public place.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:34 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Apologies, yes, I did miss that bit.

Given that she initiated the confrontation when he literally had his back to her, no it's not slut shaming. It's simply pointing out the way of the world to an obnoxious woman who thought she could shame a man in public with impunity.

Had she not ventured a confrontation one would not have happened.
So women should just shut up about being oogled and they won't be slut-shamed?

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Old 11th January 2018, 05:34 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I have never heard them being upset for looking, it is the staring and talking to their breasts that they typically object to.
What's the difference between "looking" and "staring" and who gets to be the judge of that?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:36 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We've gone from 'staring while walking by' to 'stand over her'
Yes women and the disabled who do not want to be stared at should simply just never leave the house.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're all more or less perverted, as in, we find certain situations that go beyond social norms sexually arousing. That doesn't make it right.



Absolutely nothing. It's very sad that this is the discussion we're having in this thread.
I am gobsmacked at your definition of pervert, our conception of pervert are miles apart.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:36 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

With that out of the way, what do you think looking in a public place at a women's cleavage has to do with a boss groping a single mother of 2 telling her she can put up with it if she wants to keep her job?
You are right. The 2 are not the same. However, it has become a witch hunt where just looking will cause someone to try to shame you. There are men being accused of things much worse than what actually happened. If anything happened at all.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:36 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So women should just shut up about being oogled and they won't be slut-shamed?

Maybe not go directly to "PERVERT!"?

Are men not allowed to react to such outbursts?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:36 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're all more or less perverted, as in, we find certain situations that go beyond social norms sexually arousing.

Holy ****, how repressed are you!

If 'We're all perverted' and 'perversion is defined, loosely as 'desires outside societal norms' then we're none of us perverted.

You seem to think sex and sexual desire in and of itself is perverted. That's some cracking doublethink you have going on there.


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That doesn't make it right.



Absolutely nothing. It's very sad that this is the discussion we're having in this thread.
I agree.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:37 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm fairly sure You're trying to muddy the waters.


Children can be looked at, just as everyone else can.

15 year old girls with fully developed bodies who are wearing low cut tops will be looked at. You might not like it, but it's going to happen. They might not like it, in which case, they might consider wearing a different top
And mastestomies if people are staring at their tits still even in a non lowcut top. If they didn't want people to stare they simply shouldn't have tits. After all it isn't like men only stare if the woman is in a particularly low cut top, and it is all good no matter what she is wearing.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:37 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
In public, against the wishes of the stared upon, yes. I do not think I'm alone in this.



There's the problem.
Are you now equating an attempt to woo a woman in public with sexual assault?

We're gonna run out of people real fast if you're in charge.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:37 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes women and the disabled who do not want to be stared at should simply just never leave the house.
The strawmen are coming hard and fast from you.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:38 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Maybe not go directly to "PERVERT!"?

Are men not allowed to react to such outbursts?
Yes, but not in the way he did.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:38 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So women should just shut up about being oogled and they won't be slut-shamed?

Is that really what you think he was saying?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:39 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So women should just shut up about being oogled and they won't be slut-shamed?

No. Women should not wear tops designed to show off their tits and then yell at men in the street for looking.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:39 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are you now equating an attempt to woo a woman in public with sexual assault?

We're gonna run out of people real fast if you're in charge.
Are you now claiming that the 40 year old in the story was attempting to "woo" the teenager?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:39 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, but not in the way he did.
How should he react then?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:40 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I'm sure all this hyperbole, snark, and assuming the worst of other posters' intentions if they don't agree with you completely is going to lead to a productive discussion...
Given that the whole argument started off a strawman why would you think anyone is here looking for a productive argument?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:40 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
How should he react then?
Apparently he is supposed to apologize to her after she tried to shame him by screaming pervert.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:41 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is that really what you think he was saying?
Yes, absolutely.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No. Women should not wear tops designed to show off their tits and then yell at men in the street for looking.
Yes, they absolutely should.

Originally Posted by erlando View Post
How should he react then?
By apologising.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:41 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Maybe because that seems to be the sentiment of so many #metoo supporters? Don't look, she's dressed like that for her own pleasure!
Got any actual evidence for that? The distinction being made is looking vs staring after all.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:42 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes women and the disabled who do not want to be stared at should simply just never leave the house.
Just hyperbole all over the place.

Again - women who wear low cut tops, designed to show off their tits do not have the right to yell at men who look at the very part of them they've taken pains to display.


I don't know where the hell you got what you wrote but it has sweet **** all to do with what I'm saying.



Can well all just stop with all the hyperbole. It's starting to look like a Daily Mail comments section in here.


I'm afraid I'm just going to ignore posts that equate looking with assault from now on. Can we all just stop with the hyperbole. Please.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:43 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think it constitutes stalking.
Why would following someone in a public area constitute stalking? And if you genuinely think following is the same thing as stalking, why did you list stalking and following as two separate things?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:43 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post

Again - women who wear low cut tops, designed to show off their tits do not have the right to yell at men who look at the very part of them they've taken pains to display.
Yes, they do, and you have no right to slut-shame them when they do.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:43 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Oh stop the BS. Stop trying to bring kids into this. That is not what this is about.
Why not? You are not harming or taking anything from them by staring sexually at them, just like the adult woman in the top you deem sufficiently low cut to deserve staring at. Why does the situation change?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:43 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And mastestomies if people are staring at their tits still even in a non lowcut top. If they didn't want people to stare they simply shouldn't have tits. After all it isn't like men only stare if the woman is in a particularly low cut top, and it is all good no matter what she is wearing.

Ignoring hyperbole.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:45 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Ignoring hyperbole.
It's your argument taken to an extreme to prove a point. It does so admirably.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:45 AM   #196
3point14
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you now claiming that the 40 year old in the story was attempting to "woo" the teenager?

You're determined to be offended by absolutely everything.

No, if you read it again, I'm equating me looking at a woman in public who notices me looking, following up that interaction with me saing 'how you doin'?' in time-honoured, Joey fashion.



How do men and women get together in your world?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:45 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Maybe it's me, or I'm just from a different country, but is just lobbing your cock out a normal way of advancing things on a date where you are?
I've known women to do something pretty much on the same level, so this isn't exactly a one-way street.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:46 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you can find an example of me saying in this thread that consent needs to be either written or notarised, then you get a cookie
Oh, so when _I_ use hyperbole suddenly it's beyond the pale?

The point is that this isn't how human relations work.

Quote:
It seems that a lot of people in this thread, and they seem to be men, think that consent is given until it is removed.
Strawman.

First time I kissed my now-wife, I didn't ask her permission. She also didn't ask permission to stick her tongue in my mouth. We also didn't ask permission to start fondling one another later on. Damn! We're both guilty of assault!
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:47 AM   #199
uke2se
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You're determined to be offended by absolutely everything.

No, if you read it again, I'm equating me looking at a woman in public who notices me looking, following up that interaction with me saing 'how you doin'?' in time-honoured, Joey fashion.



How do men and women get together in your world?
So we're no longer discussing the 40-year-old and the teenager? I'm sorry, but I get dizzy whipping my head around this fast.

Do whatever the hell you want, man. I'll still support a woman calling you out when you oogle her.

And this still has absolutely nothing to do with #metoo, the supposed subject of this thread.
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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:47 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
When I said that if he stops when she says to then that should be the end of it, I was meaning in a dating type situation. I was not talking about walking up to some random person and grabbing them like you seem to be saying.
Great now we have to know if the woman in the low cut top is looking for a date before we grope her!

There are all kinds of problems with the whole presumed consent even on dates unless we get a no. But this discussion seems to have focused on staring at people in public now.
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