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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:04 AM   #281
theprestige
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Don't be absurd. You know as well as I do that any argument I make, if shown to be correct, will only result in your moving the goalposts.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. You have to make a correct argument first.

Also, that has to be the lamest excuse for making bad arguments.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:12 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
She's a female, liberal democrat. Thus, unqualified.
The status of her legs certainly doesn't provide any indication of knowledge or qualifications.

Also, I hear her parents were not Americans....I think they said they were ducks.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:13 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Duckwork also has a B.A. in political science and an M.A. in international affairs from George Washington University, and she graduated from the Army Officers' Reserve Training Corp. So yes, she has infinitely more insight than a draft-dodging failed real estate tycoon and former game show host.
My dad has an M.A. in political science. He's woefully unqualified to lecture on military affairs.

The ROTC program is an entry-level training program intended to qualify cadets for the most junior of officer ranks. If you're going to go that route, you should probably stick with "she got promoted to Lieutenant Colonel". That at least would include not only her "undergraduate" work, but also her service experience and professional development accrued since then.

I don't doubt that she's more qualified than others to lecture on certain aspects of the military. Not everybody can say what it's like to be shot down. Not everybody is in a position to offer feedback about how the military treats its wounded, and cares for them through the recovery and discharge process.

But the whole premise behind having a civilian commander in chief, and having civilian legislative oversight of the military, is that military service or training is not necessary to be qualified to reason and have opinions about military matters.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd January 2018 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:14 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. You have to make a correct argument first.

Also, that has to be the lamest excuse for making bad arguments.
You people argue in bad faith. That's what you do. Don't get all whiney when you run into someone tired of playing that game.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:20 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
You people argue in bad faith. That's what you do. Don't get all whiney when you run into someone tired of playing that game.
In post about qualifications, bob001 included losing her legs. That is absurd. It isn't bad faith to point that out.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:42 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In post about qualifications, bob001 included losing her legs. That is absurd. It isn't bad faith to point that out.
That makes her more qualified to talk about military matters than someone who has 5 deferments. That's not even a real debate, is it?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:43 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Getting injured in combat is not a qualification to discuss military affairs. Combat injuries do not impart knowledge of recruitment and retention, training and doctrine, procurement and supply, etc.
Being injured in and of itself does not impart knowledge, but the fact that she was injured in combat is significant, because as a solder who was under fire, she should have a window on the types of stresses soldiers would be under while deployed; plus, she would have experience dealing with veterans affairs once she returned home.

The fact that she was injured, yet continues to serve the public through politics is something that should be respected.
Quote:
But her claim is that Trump is less qualified than her.
Which would be an accurate claim. Even if serving/getting injured doesn't give her complete, 100% perfect knowledge of the entire military structure, that's not what that statement is saying. Its saying, all things considered, "does some knowledge/experience outweigh absolutely no knowledge/experience". The answer to that question is yes.

Quote:
But the whole premise behind having a civilian commander in chief, and having civilian legislative oversight of the military, is that military service or training is not necessary to be qualified to reason and have opinions about military matters.
True, its not mandatory for the president to have a military background. But if a president is lacking such a background, it would be expected for him to rely on advisors to "fill in the gaps".

Trump is such an ignorant buffoon, and we have seen no evidence that he has taken such steps to be properly educated in any matters of national security.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:50 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
That makes her more qualified to talk about military matters than someone who has 5 deferments. That's not even a real debate, is it?
Nothing about the actual act of losing her legs says anything about her being more qualified. If her legs remained in tact, her knowledge would be the same, possibly even better.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:54 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nothing about the actual act of losing her legs says anything about her being more qualified. If her legs remained in tact, her knowledge would be the same, possibly even better.
Wrong, for very good reasons detailed in the post prior to yours by Segnosaur.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:55 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's been a bit of news recently about
"people are saying..."
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:56 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My dad has an M.A. in political science. He's woefully unqualified to lecture on military affairs.

The ROTC program is an entry-level training program intended to qualify cadets for the most junior of officer ranks. If you're going to go that route, you should probably stick with "she got promoted to Lieutenant Colonel". That at least would include not only her "undergraduate" work, but also her service experience and professional development accrued since then.

I don't doubt that she's more qualified than others to lecture on certain aspects of the military. Not everybody can say what it's like to be shot down. Not everybody is in a position to offer feedback about how the military treats its wounded, and cares for them through the recovery and discharge process.

But the whole premise behind having a civilian commander in chief, and having civilian legislative oversight of the military, is that military service or training is not necessary to be qualified to reason and have opinions about military matters.
Unfortunately the Republicans have now produced two Presidents that actively worked to dodge the draft. This doesn't bode well for their views on potential military action. The term 'Armchair Warriors' Springs to mind.

I was just down in the 101st Airborne Museum in Bastogne at the weekend. There was a very appropriate quote from Patton:

“No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair.”
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:58 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Wrong, for very good reasons detailed in the post prior to yours by Segnosaur.
I addressed that

Quote:
but the fact that she was injured in combat is significant, because as a solder who was under fire, she should have a window on the types of stresses soldiers would be under while deployed;
Injury is completely separate from stress under fire. It doesn't enhance that experience. "Being under fire" is the relevant detail.

And of course, experiencing something and studying something are two different things. The former is a waste as humans are incredibly terrible at contextualizing their own experience.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:59 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post

“No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair.”
That is an incredibly stupid statement.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:59 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's been a bit of news recently about naval officers who got promoted to high rank, who have now been made to resign, and face criminal charges, due to their actions as military officers. Promotion alone does not always signify qualification or fitness for duty.
And the irony just keeps building ...
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:10 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Injury is completely separate from stress under fire. It doesn't enhance that experience. "Being under fire" is the relevant detail.
I already highlighted the fact that she was "under fire" as a key point in my post.

What her injury does is give her first hand knowledge in how the U.S. deals with injured servicemen, both on the battlefield and after they have been discharged from the military.
Quote:
And of course, experiencing something and studying something are two different things.
Yes they are, but all things considered, a solder who has experienced something (but not studied) military conflict will still be better informed than a racist orangutan who has never experienced, nor studied military conflict.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:15 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And he did go to military school. That's like being in the military, right?

Probably worse. Aside from all the getting shot at stuff, of course.

Kidding aside, being the smarmy, supercilious ass-hole that he is, I suspect his career in a military school was probably less than pleasant for him. At least if it was anything like the one I went to (SMA). The kids tend to be less tolerant of that sort of attitude, and having wealthy parents really doesn't help all that much.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:25 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I addressed that



Injury is completely separate from stress under fire. It doesn't enhance that experience. "Being under fire" is the relevant detail.

And of course, experiencing something and studying something are two different things. The former is a waste as humans are incredibly terrible at contextualizing their own experience.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:31 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
<snip>

Trump is such an ignorant buffoon, and we have seen no evidence that he has taken such steps to be properly educated in any matters of national security.

He doesn't need to. He knows more than all the generals.

It must be true. He said so.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:35 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I already highlighted the fact that she was "under fire" as a key point in my post.

What her injury does is give her first hand knowledge in how the U.S. deals with injured servicemen, both on the battlefield and after they have been discharged from the military.

Yes they are, but all things considered, a solder who has experienced something (but not studied) military conflict will still be better informed than a racist orangutan who has never experienced, nor studied military conflict.
But bob001 did not say it. I have little issue with you making that argument. If bob001 made that argument, results would have been different.

And I'm not sure about that last one, either. After every new study adds a new element into how badly humans judge their own personal experiences, we are approaching a point where we can just waive personal experience.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So where are all these foreign born white supremacists coming from?
Norway
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:39 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In post about qualifications, bob001 included losing her legs. That is absurd. It isn't bad faith to point that out.
What a stupid thing to say, Bob. No, it not absurd to say that losing the legs gives her an insight into the meaning of military service that Trump will never have when he sends young people off to die or be disabled for life.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:41 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
That makes her more qualified to talk about military matters than someone who has 5 deferments.
Except it doesn't.

Quote:
That's not even a real debate, is it?
Sadly, it is.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:43 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
What a stupid thing to say, Bob. No, it not absurd to say that losing the legs gives her an insight into the meaning of military service that Trump will never have when he sends young people off to die or be disabled for life.
I don't think we were ever discussing "the meaning of military service." I thought it was the political science of military affairs.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:43 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
"people are saying..."
LOL. Did you really miss the reference?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:45 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So where are all these foreign born white supremacists coming from?
Norway

If Mexico can send us all their murders and rapists it seems only fair that Norway should be able to, too.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:46 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Unfortunately the Republicans have now produced two Presidents that actively worked to dodge the draft. This doesn't bode well for their views on potential military action.
Depends on your point of view. Obviously draft dodgers are comfortable opting out of military actions they think are ********. That seems like a good skill for a Commander in Chief to have.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:46 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If Mexico can send us all their murders and rapists it seems only fair that Norway should be able to, too.
Trump and Anders breivik probably agree on a lot.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:47 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Norway
Pretty funny.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:50 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Depends on your point of view. Obviously draft dodgers are comfortable opting out of military actions they think are ********. That seems like a good skill for a Commander in Chief to have.
Sorry, is this a serious argument that draft dodgers are particularly good at caring for the military?

Wealthy, privileged draft dodgers in particular?

It's a novel stance, I'll give you that.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:55 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is an incredibly stupid statement.
You don't like Patton?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:55 PM   #311
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...not to mention most veteranswho voted did vote for trump,...
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:56 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we were ever discussing "the meaning of military service." I thought it was the political science of military affairs.
Well, there you go again, trying to bob the thread by inserting "political science" into the middle of what Bob001 actually said:

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Do you understand that she's a former Lt. Colonel who lost both her legs in combat in Iraq? That is a helluva qualification to discuss military affairs.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:56 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except it doesn't.
It most certainly does. She was in the military, from a military family, who went through what most soldiers hope not to. She has experience in more than just combat.

She CERTAINLY has more real-world experience in the military than your orange faced hero does that's for damn sure.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:59 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Depends on your point of view. Obviously draft dodgers are comfortable opting out of military actions they think are ********. That seems like a good skill for a Commander in Chief to have.
Except of course we have no evidence that Trump ever protested the Vietnam war or thought that the war was in any way a bad idea. He just didn't want to serve in it.

Perhaps you can provide some proof that Trump was out there in the 60s with the Hippies complaining about the war in Vietnam. Otherwise, we can just chalk up his draft dodging as cowardice. (Which would be acceptable, if he didn't simultaneously try to brag about things like "being smarter than the generals".)
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:59 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, there you go again, trying to bob the thread by inserting "political science" into the middle of what Bob001 actually said:
Military affairs. Not the meaning of military service. I stand by my characterization of the comment.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:02 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It most certainly does. She was in the military, from a military family, who went through what most soldiers hope not to. She has experience in more than just combat.

She CERTAINLY has more real-world experience in the military than your orange faced hero does that's for damn sure.
Particularly since, despite his asinine bragging on the campaign trail, he more or less handed over control of the military to the generals.

Which is absolutely *not* supposed to happen, by the way.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:04 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It most certainly does. She was in the military, from a military family, who went through what most soldiers hope not to. She has experience in more than just combat.

She CERTAINLY has more real-world experience in the military than your orange faced hero does that's for damn sure.
Real world experience is extremely faulty compared to evidence based approaches.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:05 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. Did you really miss the reference?
Apparently. What does it have to do with Trumps laughable level of military qualifications?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:07 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Real world experience is extremely faulty compared to evidence based approaches.
Get back to us when Trump uses anything resembling either of those, OK?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:08 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Get back to us when Trump uses anything resembling either of those, OK?
If I supported anything Trump did, that would be quite the rejoinder.
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