ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

Closed Thread
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:12 PM   #321
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, if getting elected is a sufficient qualification, then that's all she has to do, isn't it.
She was elected.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:13 PM   #322
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If that's the qualification, then she and Trump are equally qualified. But her claim is that Trump is less qualified than her.
Her service would be the tie breaker.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:14 PM   #323
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Real world experience is extremely faulty compared to evidence based approaches.
And once again, since you and theprestige seem to have trouble understanding....

While evidence-based approaches may be better than real-world experience, the trouble is Trump does not have either of those going for him. He never served, and he constantly illustrates his ignorance of the military.

If Trump were actually illustrated an ability to learn about the military, then perhaps your argument would be irrelevant. But as long as he continues to be a buffoon, then we'll have to go with the experienced individual.

List of Trump's military gaffs...

- Claimed that the U.S. once defeated islamic terrorists using bullets coated in pigs blood (uhhh... no, Trump, that didn't happen.)

- Claimed that the F35 was "invisible" (i.e. couldn't "see" it at all, not just with radar)

- Gave the wrong location for a Carrier group supposedly headed to Korea

- Seems to not understand how NATO funding works
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:15 PM   #324
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,986
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If her legs remained in tact
That doesn't say what you wanted it to say.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:17 PM   #325
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

If Trump were actually illustrated an ability to learn about the military, then perhaps your argument would be irrelevant. But as long as he continues to be a buffoon, then we'll have to go with the experienced individual.
Possibly. I would have to see the studies on decision making under those scenarios.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:17 PM   #326
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Being injured in and of itself does not impart knowledge, but the fact that she was injured in combat is significant, because as a solder who was under fire, she should have a window on the types of stresses soldiers would be under while deployed; plus, she would have experience dealing with veterans affairs once she returned home.

The fact that she was injured, yet continues to serve the public through politics is something that should be respected.

Which would be an accurate claim. Even if serving/getting injured doesn't give her complete, 100% perfect knowledge of the entire military structure, that's not what that statement is saying. Its saying, all things considered, "does some knowledge/experience outweigh absolutely no knowledge/experience". The answer to that question is yes.


True, its not mandatory for the president to have a military background. But if a president is lacking such a background, it would be expected for him to rely on advisors to "fill in the gaps".

Trump is such an ignorant buffoon, and we have seen no evidence that he has taken such steps to be properly educated in any matters of national security.
He's already stated he knows more than the Generals.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:18 PM   #327
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That doesn't say what you wanted it to say.
Hehe. Thank you.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:19 PM   #328
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Unfortunately the Republicans have now produced two Presidents that actively worked to dodge the draft. This doesn't bode well for their views on potential military action. The term 'Armchair Warriors' Springs to mind.

I was just down in the 101st Airborne Museum in Bastogne at the weekend. There was a very appropriate quote from Patton:

No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair.
Not a good example Patton was a lunatic. I wouldn't have given him command of anything.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:19 PM   #329
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My dad has an M.A. in political science. He's woefully unqualified to lecture on military affairs.

The ROTC program is an entry-level training program intended to qualify cadets for the most junior of officer ranks. If you're going to go that route, you should probably stick with "she got promoted to Lieutenant Colonel". That at least would include not only her "undergraduate" work, but also her service experience and professional development accrued since then.

I don't doubt that she's more qualified than others to lecture on certain aspects of the military. Not everybody can say what it's like to be shot down. Not everybody is in a position to offer feedback about how the military treats its wounded, and cares for them through the recovery and discharge process.

But the whole premise behind having a civilian commander in chief, and having civilian legislative oversight of the military, is that military service or training is not necessary to be qualified to reason and have opinions about military matters.
Yes, I understand: You're defending someone who isn't much "qualified to reason and have opinions about" much of anything -- apparently because of a complete lack of interest -- by denigrating the general notion of "qualifications" and then pointing out that it's "not necessary" to be commander in chief. Yes, it a demonstrated fact now that the only thing that's necessary is to win the Electoral College. You win.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:21 PM   #330
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
...not to mention most veteranswho voted did vote for trump,...
Do you have any figures for that?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:23 PM   #331
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,506
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I supported anything Trump did, that would be quite the rejoinder.
By trying to completely and utterly downplay Duckwork's comments you appear, by default, defending the target of those comments. That would be Trump. If you are not defending Trump from these comments, then what point are you trying to make? Duckworth is merely noting that our President, who has made many ridiculous claims about his direct military knowledge, is actually defficient in that department. She is not bothering to compare her skillset by the arbitray standards that you suddenly decided upon, she's comparing them to Trumps bankruptcy in that department. So why are you so determined to undermine her comments at all costs such that you end up resembling the remaining Trump hyperpartisans in this thread?
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:24 PM   #332
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,069
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Kidding aside, being the smarmy, supercilious ass-hole that he is, I suspect his career in a military school was probably less than pleasant for him. At least if it was anything like the one I went to (SMA). The kids tend to be less tolerant of that sort of attitude, and having wealthy parents really doesn't help all that much.
The worst thing is, now he has the power to really mess those guys up if he wants to.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:24 PM   #333
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Do you have any figures for that?
Yes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...on/exit-polls/

60% to 34% based on exit polls.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:28 PM   #334
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Military affairs. Not the meaning of military service. I stand by my characterization of the comment.
Until we have an army of expendable robots, then the "meaning of military service" will be a part of my definition of "military affairs" thank you, so I'll leave you standing by your comment.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:29 PM   #335
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 12,221
Anyone here ever watch "Designated Survivor"?

I used to think that series was dystopian...
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:30 PM   #336
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
By trying to completely and utterly downplay Duckwork's comments you appear, by default, defending the target of those comments. That would be Trump. If you are not defending Trump from these comments, then what point are you trying to make? Duckworth is merely noting that our President, who has made many ridiculous claims about his direct military knowledge, is actually defficient in that department. She is not bothering to compare her skillset by the arbitray standards that you suddenly decided upon, she's comparing them to Trumps bankruptcy in that department. So why are you so determined to undermine her comments at all costs such that you end up resembling the remaining Trump hyperpartisans in this thread?
I'm not trying to make a point any bigger than the surface point I am making.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:34 PM   #337
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It most certainly does. She was in the military, from a military family, who went through what most soldiers hope not to. She has experience in more than just combat.

She CERTAINLY has more real-world experience in the military than your orange faced hero does that's for damn sure.
I, too, have served. I, too, have more military experience than Trump. That doesn't necessarily make me qualified to lecture on military affairs. I can tell you some stories, though.

A Purple Heart is not magic.

Conversely, I give you Norman Polmar. He's a world renowned expert in naval affairs. He is supremely qualified to lecture on such topics, and he didn't need to serve, let alone get wounded in the line of duty, to earn that qualification.

Again, this is a fundamental principle of our form of government: That civilians are qualified to oversee the military. Having more experiences of military life doesn't automatically grant more qualification to discuss military policy. Indeed, my experience is that perhaps except at the very highest levels, personal military experience doesn't give you much insight at all into larger questions of military policy. Your personal experiences are just anecdotes. Policy discussions require data.

Everybody defending the Senator here on the basis of her injuries or her service record, are appealing to her anecdotes. In reality, whatever qualifies her more than Trump is going to be data that she has analyzed.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:36 PM   #338
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,655
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Real world experience is extremely faulty compared to evidence based approaches.
I'm curious where your evidence-based approach obtains such evidence if not from real-world experience?
__________________
This space for rent.
In conservative heads!
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:37 PM   #339
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,655
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I, too, have served. I, too, have more military experience than Trump. That doesn't necessarily make me qualified to lecture on military affairs. I can tell you some stories, though.
It makes you qualified to lecture Trump.
__________________
This space for rent.
In conservative heads!
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:39 PM   #340
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm curious where your evidence-based approach obtains such evidence if not from real-world experience?
Oh, I'm definitely hoarding that information now. I wont share as it gives me a leg up, clearly.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:40 PM   #341
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Apparently. What does it have to do with Trumps laughable level of military qualifications?
It has to do with the claim that getting promoted as an officer is a sign of qualification.

Getting promoted as an officer is one of the things that sets Senator Duckworth apart from Donald Trump. But it doesn't set her apart from military incompetents who also got promoted as officers. Therefore it is not a good basis for claiming that she is more qualified than Trump.

Besides, we hold that even Senators who have never served are still competent to oversee military matters. So her service record is a red herring, when it comes to qualifications as a military lecturer. Which has been my point all along.

I guess it's my fault for taking so long to make that clear. Her service record may make for a good zinger (and from the reaction here, it looks like it did), but it's a red herring in any serious discussion of qualifications.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd January 2018 at 01:41 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:47 PM   #342
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,655
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Oh, I'm definitely hoarding that information now. I wont share as it gives me a leg up, clearly.
right.

can we move past the bobbing of the thread now?
__________________
This space for rent.
In conservative heads!
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:51 PM   #343
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It makes you qualified to lecture Trump.
I also served. Can I lecture him?
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:51 PM   #344
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess it's my fault for taking so long to make that clear. Her service record may make for a good zinger (and from the reaction here, it looks like it did), but it's a red herring in any serious discussion of qualifications.
Not to those who think that maybe if that were a qualification, we wouldn't have gotten into so many stupid wars.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 01:54 PM   #345
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Not to those who think that maybe if that were a qualification, we wouldn't have gotten into so many stupid wars.
So prestige and I are veterans. If the opposite side is going to talk about judgement on certain things to my cohort, I will take it.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:04 PM   #346
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,655
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also served. Can I lecture him?
Trump?

My CAT could lecture Trump on military matters. He's a buffoon.
__________________
This space for rent.
In conservative heads!
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:12 PM   #347
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,506
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It has to do with the claim that getting promoted as an officer is a sign of qualification.

Getting promoted as an officer is one of the things that sets Senator Duckworth apart from Donald Trump. But it doesn't set her apart from military incompetents who also got promoted as officers. Therefore it is not a good basis for claiming that she is more qualified than Trump.
This is like saying "I know that there are corrupt cops, you just became a cop. We can't trust you because you are probably corrupt.". You are taking an extreme point to downplay someone's experience.

Yes, there are bad officers. Some officers are better at adminstration, some at logistics, some at field command. Some are no good at anything miltary. Doesn't matter. The point is that the lowliest private who served in the Army 40 years ago doing nothing but KP duty will be able to lecture the walking orange joke that sits in the oval office.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:22 PM   #348
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So prestige and I are veterans. If the opposite side is going to talk about judgement on certain things to my cohort, I will take it.
But you're a veteran who wants to debate that "military affairs" shouldn't include veterans affairs, while theprestige is a veteran who just wants to excuse Trump's incompetence at just about everything. I don't think I'll be attending your lectures.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:27 PM   #349
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I, too, have served. I, too, have more military experience than Trump. That doesn't necessarily make me qualified to lecture on military affairs. I can tell you some stories, though.
.....
Is the problem the word "lecture?" Duckworth may not be qualified to deliver a university-level lecture series, on, say, the weapons and tactics used at the Battle of Thermopylae. She is certainly qualified by training and experience to discuss matters like troop deployment, combat strategy, military appropriations, VA operations and veterans' medical care, etc. Trump has no training, experience or even casual curiosity about any of those things. If the two have conflicting views, I'd bet on her every time as the one who makes sense. Being a decorated combat veteran is just one factor.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:38 PM   #350
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
But you're a veteran who wants to debate that "military affairs" shouldn't include veterans affairs, while theprestige is a veteran who just wants to excuse Trump's incompetence at just about everything. I don't think I'll be attending your lectures.
Veterans affairs is not "the meaning of military service."
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:43 PM   #351
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,900
It's ludicrous argument that because Duckworth suffered severe casualties in combat she somehow has no other military credentials or knowledge. So to review:

She did make the rank of U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, pilot, when she was injured and left the service. In addition:
Quote:
joined ROTC as a graduate student, although my father, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps, can trace the military service in our family all the way back to the Revolutionary War. ... I had been pursuing a Ph.D. in political science when my National Guard unit was sent to Iraq. ... That day, and so many others when I served, illustrated the two most important lessons the military taught me: Never leave anyone behind—not on the battlefield and not in our country. And never put a service member in harm’s way without understanding the cost—the very real and very human cost—of war. ...families like mine, with fathers and brothers and sisters and mothers in the service, are always the first to bleed.
And from this link:
Quote:
Duckworth previously served as Assistant Secretary for Public and Intergovernmental Affairs in the United States Department of Veterans Affairs from April 24, 2009 to June 30, 2011, and as the Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs from November 21, 2006 to February 8, 2009. ... She continues to serve as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Illinois Army National Guard along with her husband, Major Bryan W. Bowlsbey, a signal officer and fellow Iraq War veteran.[2]...

a Bachelor of Arts in political science, and received a Master of Arts in international affairs from George Washington University.[6]

Following in the footsteps of her father and ancestors, who served in the Revolutionary War, World War II, and the Vietnam War,[4] Duckworth joined the Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps as a graduate student at George Washington University in 1990. She became a commissioned officer in the United States Army Reserve in 1992 and chose to fly helicopters because it was one of the few combat jobs open to women....

Duckworth was working towards a PhD in political science at Northern Illinois University, with research interests in the political economy and public health in southeast Asia, when she was deployed to Iraq in 2004....

Duckworth was appointed Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs by Governor Rod Blagojevich[13][14][15] from November 21, 2006 to February 8, 2009. She was honored by Chicago's Access Living for "her extraordinary commitment to veterans with disabilities".[16]

On February 3, 2009, Duckworth was nominated to be the Assistant Secretary of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs for the United States Department of Veterans Affairs.[19] The United States Senate confirmed her for the position on April 22.[20] On June 30, 2011, Duckworth resigned from her position to launch her campaign for the U.S. House of Representatives in Illinois' 8th Congressional District.

Committee assignmentsEdit
Committee on Armed Services
Subcommittee on Tactical Air and Land Forces
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Energy Policy, Health Care and Entitlements
Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Job Creation and Regulatory Affairs
So if you are going to debate this woman's military knowledge, how about actually debating the facts rather than her combat injury as if that is all she ever accomplished.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:43 PM   #352
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
She was elected.
So was Trump.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:51 PM   #353
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Her service would be the tie breaker.
There's no tie to break, and service is not automatically a sign of fitness or qualification. I already have brought up examples of people with service records, who turned out to be unqualified. And an example of someone without a service record, whose qualifications to lecture on military matters are widely recognized.

Again, her service record is a red herring. If I had the choice of a military lecture from someone who had served, or from someone who hadn't served, I'd choose the lecturer who was actually more qualified to speak on the topic.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd January 2018 at 03:17 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:57 PM   #354
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And once again, since you and theprestige seem to have trouble understanding....
I understand all that just fine.

If Senator Duckworth had said that Trump's documented history of being an idiot about everything all the time puts him in a weak position to lecture her about the military, that would have been a sound argument.

Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.

Defending her claim because she got injured in combat, or because she somehow managed to get promoted a few times, is also not a sound argument.

I have no doubt that Senator Duckworth is demonstrably more qualified to lecture on military matters. But having a service record is not actually such a demonstration.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:05 PM   #355
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Yes, I understand: You're defending someone who isn't much "qualified to reason and have opinions about" much of anything -- apparently because of a complete lack of interest -- by denigrating the general notion of "qualifications" and then pointing out that it's "not necessary" to be commander in chief. Yes, it a demonstrated fact now that the only thing that's necessary is to win the Electoral College. You win.
I'm not defending anyone. Senator Duckworth made a bad argument, and you're embracing it. I'm calling that out.

It is exactly because I take the notion of qualifications seriously, that I am pushing back against the service record claim to qualifications.

As to getting elected: Do you think that Senators who have never served in the armed forces should be allowed to sit on committees dealing with armed forces legislation? Should they be allowed to sponsor or to debate armed forces legislation? Hell, do you think Senators who haven't served should be allowed to vote on armed forces legislation?

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd January 2018 at 03:16 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:08 PM   #356
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's ludicrous argument that because Duckworth suffered severe casualties in combat she somehow has no other military credentials or knowledge. So to review:

She did make the rank of U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, pilot, when she was injured and left the service. In addition:

And from this link:

So if you are going to debate this woman's military knowledge, how about actually debating the facts rather than her combat injury as if that is all she ever accomplished.
Because bob001 didn't post that.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:09 PM   #357
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
....
Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.
....
Not just that he didn't serve, but that he apparently trumped-up a series of five trivial medical deferments. Some of us remember that there were Vietnam-era doctors who were prepared to issue documents in support of medical deferments for well-connected patients, when anyone else with the same "condition" would have been wearing the green. Trump not only didn't serve, he actively evaded service. So did a lot of other people of that era, including Bill Clinton and Dick Cheney, but they don't claim that the New York club scene was their "personal Vietnam."
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:15 PM   #358
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,900
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I understand all that just fine.

If Senator Duckworth had said that Trump's documented history of being an idiot about everything all the time puts him in a weak position to lecture her about the military, that would have been a sound argument.

Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.

Defending her claim because she got injured in combat, or because she somehow managed to get promoted a few times, is also not a sound argument.

I have no doubt that Senator Duckworth is demonstrably more qualified to lecture on military matters. But having a service record is not actually such a demonstration.
So your complaint is about appearances?
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:21 PM   #359
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It makes you qualified to lecture Trump.
Does it make me qualified to lecture Duckworth?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:23 PM   #360
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,632
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
This is like saying "I know that there are corrupt cops, you just became a cop. We can't trust you because you are probably corrupt.". You are taking an extreme point to downplay someone's experience.
I'm not downplaying anything. Her military experience is a red herring. Her qualifications to sit in the Senate and debate military affairs does not stem from her military experience.

Quote:
Yes, there are bad officers. Some officers are better at adminstration, some at logistics, some at field command. Some are no good at anything miltary. Doesn't matter. The point is that the lowliest private who served in the Army 40 years ago doing nothing but KP duty will be able to lecture the walking orange joke that sits in the oval office.
I disagree.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:42 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.