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Old 10th February 2018, 09:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool story. My favorite was when you said that reading a paragraph of St. Thomas Aquinas (one of the towering intellects of Western Thought) made something you already find to be "mythology, historically interesting but a figment of human imagination," "less compelling" to you.

Sounds legit.
I would hardly say that Thomas Aquinas was a towering intellect of Western thought. In fact, while I would say he was smarter than Donald Trump, he was no Locke, Thoreau, Rawls or Paine. He was nothing more than an apologist for a morally bankrupt church.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
A towering intellect can still be wrong. I find Plato equally interesting to read, that does not mean I believe humanity used to be ball-shaped beings with 4 arms and 4 legs separated because of our hubris.


Then again, I may presume that according to that intellect you are a heretic that needs to be punished?
Or are you a catholic monarchist accepting of slavery?
I simply reject the beliefs of the Church of Mammom.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I simply reject the beliefs of the Church of Mammom.
Instead, you pray to pedophile and murderous priests who spread mythology as if it is truth with the sword.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:24 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Instead, you pray to pedophile and murderous priests who spread mythology as if it is truth with the sword.
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Old 10th February 2018, 02:55 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by acbytesla
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes God good? ...
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
God is good in mysterious ways indeed!
Big Dog proved again how people make exceptions for God. That they don't and won't see his character for what the Bible says it is.
That racy act of explicit theism on part of TBD is just saying to his Santa "I've been a good boy this year" but in an, let's say, adult way.

However, I'm not sure the OP deserves replies better than that.
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Old 11th February 2018, 12:19 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I simply reject the beliefs of the Church of Mammom.
Then why use the arguments of someone who claims that is the one true church to defend what he would claim is heresy?

Anyway, on the original topic.

If I were to use a family analogy, to me the old and the new testament read as the history of a dysfunctional family.

The god of the old testament, to me, comes across as an abusive, alcoholic father, who keeps telling his children how good the have it because of him. How, without his generosity, they'd be living on the street and not eating. Yet every time he has a drink he lashes out in an irrational way. After his outbursts he gets all emotional and promises that this time would be the last, only to start the cycle again.

Jesus, to me, comes across as the mother/older sibling that gives you a set of rules on how to be beaten less, while at the same time reinforcing the belief that it is of course your fault dad beats you.

Satan for me comes across as a sibling that initially went along with his dad, but eventually decided that living on the street was preferable to living with an abusive parent and who now conveniently gets blamed for everything.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:34 AM   #47
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I am not sure if the discussions of Aquinas’s solutions to Theodicy is topic drift, but I wanted to get back to the OP (although in light of my suggestion I think that Aquinas and Theodicy do play a bit in the question).

The topic of who is the good guy in the bible, and why many people from Western Liberal Democracies have a hard time with this is because of how far we have come from the implications of Monarchies and Oligarchies that were the norm in Classical and pre-Classical times. God is good because he is the top of the hierarchy. He is the creator who made the universe and breathed life into everything creature great and small. It was once just the given that God deserved veneration because he was the heavenly father. Satan is evil not because he personally drinks the blood of children or steals the pension fund from old people, but because he fosters rebellion against the legitimate head of the kingdom. This creates chaos, famine, war, and all manner of fear and uncertainty for the group.

This notion just does not play well to the people today who have rejected monarchies. Even a few people who go so far as to accept the notion of a monotheistic god question what right he has to rule over individuals with wills of their own.

This is why some find Satan a more compelling character than God to us. Satan fits closer to the image of the rebel freedom-fighter standing up to the powers that be. The rights of the individual are now just as important and the stability of the group. God, as the top of the ladder, does not equate to a loving heavenly father automatically for some, but there is natural sympathy for the rebel Satan as he is the symbol for the individual who is fighting for their rights and independence.
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Then why use the arguments of someone who claims that is the one true church to defend what he would claim is heresy?

Anyway, on the original topic.

If I were to use a family analogy, to me the old and the new testament read as the history of a dysfunctional family.

The god of the old testament, to me, comes across as an abusive, alcoholic father, who keeps telling his children how good the have it because of him. How, without his generosity, they'd be living on the street and not eating. Yet every time he has a drink he lashes out in an irrational way. After his outbursts he gets all emotional and promises that this time would be the last, only to start the cycle again.

Jesus, to me, comes across as the mother/older sibling that gives you a set of rules on how to be beaten less, while at the same time reinforcing the belief that it is of course your fault dad beats you.

Satan for me comes across as a sibling that initially went along with his dad, but eventually decided that living on the street was preferable to living with an abusive parent and who now conveniently gets blamed for everything.
I love this analogy.

I do think it has a few flaws especially when we consider the story of Job.

For me, the point of the original question is how do we come to the conclusion that God is good? What criteria was used? If one used the same criteria to judge God that we would apply to anyone else, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that God is good. It's all based on special pleading.
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Old 12th February 2018, 01:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I am not sure if the discussions of Aquinas’s solutions to Theodicy is topic drift, but I wanted to get back to the OP (although in light of my suggestion I think that Aquinas and Theodicy do play a bit in the question).

The topic of who is the good guy in the bible, and why many people from Western Liberal Democracies have a hard time with this is because of how far we have come from the implications of Monarchies and Oligarchies that were the norm in Classical and pre-Classical times. God is good because he is the top of the hierarchy. He is the creator who made the universe and breathed life into everything creature great and small. It was once just the given that God deserved veneration because he was the heavenly father. Satan is evil not because he personally drinks the blood of children or steals the pension fund from old people, but because he fosters rebellion against the legitimate head of the kingdom. This creates chaos, famine, war, and all manner of fear and uncertainty for the group.

This notion just does not play well to the people today who have rejected monarchies. Even a few people who go so far as to accept the notion of a monotheistic god question what right he has to rule over individuals with wills of their own.

This is why some find Satan a more compelling character than God to us. Satan fits closer to the image of the rebel freedom-fighter standing up to the powers that be. The rights of the individual are now just as important and the stability of the group. God, as the top of the ladder, does not equate to a loving heavenly father automatically for some, but there is natural sympathy for the rebel Satan as he is the symbol for the individual who is fighting for their rights and independence.
well the difficulty with such a question is that it is answered by atheists and anti-religionists who don't believe a word of the Bible.

Further, it is the Christian that is the rebel:

Quote:
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Ephesians 6:10-16
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Old 12th February 2018, 01:43 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well the difficulty with such a question is that it is answered by atheists and anti-religionists who don't believe a word of the Bible.

Further, it is the Christian that is the rebel:

Ephesians 6:10-16
Nonsense. Christianity has been the dominant religion in the western world for more than a millenia. To call Christians rebels is like calling the Roman Legion or the British Redcoats during the American revolution rebels.

BTW, I'm sure there are some things in the Bible that are true. There is I'm sure some Jewish history that is at least partially accurate. Just not any of the miracles. I'm also pretty sure we can delete much of Genesis as legend and folklore. Jewish archaeologists have proven that the Exodus didn't happen. Moses never liberated millions of Jews enslaved in Egypt.

I'm willing to believe anything that can be proven. I see myself as Thomas the greatest of the apostles.

Feel free to explain why evidence is irrelevant to theists.
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well the difficulty with such a question is that it is answered by atheists and anti-religionists who don't believe a word of the Bible.

Further, it is the Christian that is the rebel:



Ephesians 6:10-16
Hi Big Dog,

Regarding “well the difficulty with such a question is that it is answered by atheists and anti-religionists who don't believe a word of the Bible.” Is the question that you are referring to that of Theodicy? If so it is true that Biblical principles are not convincing to people that, do not believe in inherent truth of the bible, unless they are also particularly logical as well. I know Aquinas tries to do that, but I half always found his arguments less than convincing from a secular point of view. I was trying to avoid arguing from a biblical standpoint, as I think the original question, while it is talking about the Biblical narrative, is trying to treat the subject from a secular point of view as well. I know of no orthodox Christian reading of the Bible that would describe anyone but Satan as the “bad guy. I have heard of many modern people that do feel sympathy for the Devil on one level or another, all the way down to the accusation that Milton wrote Satan to be a hero of types in Paradise lost.

As far as Christians being the true rebels. I agree with you, historically speaking. The Roman Empire did as well. I was speaking solely from the modern perspective. I was also speaking about God particularly, and not the Christians. God is not rebelling against Satan’s legitimacy in the Bible, but Satan is the Rebel.
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post

As far as Christians being the true rebels. I agree with you, historically speaking. The Roman Empire did as well. I was speaking solely from the modern perspective. I was also speaking about God particularly, and not the Christians. God is not rebelling against Satan’s legitimacy in the Bible, but Satan is the Rebel.
I'm not sure TBD can see the irony of suggesting that Christians could ever be thought of as rebels if their God is real.

I tire of how Christians think that because a bible verse supports their view that any real proof or logic is needed. The Bible is constantly telling people NOT to use logic or evidence. We should rely instead on 'the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. WTF?

No, instead Christians act like Carnies. Don't look behind the curtain. Don't trust your senses. To doubt is to sin. A greater Christian is one who doesn't require evidence. Why do you Big Dog think no one preaching the religion wants man to use the brain that you all said God gave us?

Why should a God want us as Ignatius Loyola said for us to sacrifice our intellect? Why should we as Proverbs told us 'to lean not unto our own understanding'?

Why does one want to be a slave and as Paul tells us that we should bring into captivity every thought unto the obedience of Christ.

If God wanted all mankind to understand that the Father and Son wanted us to believe in them provide such pathetic evidence?
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:29 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post

As far as Christians being the true rebels. I agree with you, historically speaking. The Roman Empire did as well. I was speaking solely from the modern perspective. I was also speaking about God particularly, and not the Christians. God is not rebelling against Satan’s legitimacy in the Bible, but Satan is the Rebel.
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:36 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.

Armour yourself.

I got the picture..... I will girt my loins with truth ...... That should do the trick.
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
God's Own Poker Room?
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:52 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
And how do you know that?
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:55 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And how do you know that?
It is widely regarded as the central theme of the Bible, among those who have never read the Bible.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It is widely regarded as the central theme of the Bible, among those who have never read the Bible.
well, I defer to your expertise in "never reading the Bible."

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Old 12th February 2018, 04:06 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, I defer to your expertise in "never reading the Bible."

You should, I'm an expert in such people. Went to a Catholic school, you see.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You should, I'm an expert in such people. Went to a Catholic school, you see.


I will light a candle for you this Wednesday.

Until then, laissez les bon temps rouler
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


I will light a candle for you this Wednesday.

Until then, laissez les bon temps rouler
Hey, Les Voitures! Are they in the Bible?
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Hey, Les Voitures! Are they in the Bible?
Sorry, I only speak cajun
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Old 12th February 2018, 05:47 PM   #63
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
Except there is no such thing as "Satan".
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:24 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And how do you know that?
Amusingly, Satan does not appear in the holey babble at any point.It is entirely a tacked on concept.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Except there is no such thing as "Satan".
There is no such thing as God either. Personally, I have just been referencing the literary characters in the Bible.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:34 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Amusingly, Satan does not appear in the holey babble at any point.It is entirely a tacked on concept.
There was literally no chance that anti-religionists were not going to prostelyze in this thread.

By the Way? Holey Babble? How do they think up such clever turns of phrase?
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:39 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Amusingly, Satan does not appear in the holey babble at any point.It is entirely a tacked on concept.
This is kind of debatable. It's been a long time since I read that nonsense book...But I do recall that God allowed Satan to screw around with Job as a test. I just looked up what Wikipedia has to say and it seems to contradict itself. First it says what you are saying and then confirms what I remember. Now I'm entirely confused.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

Ha-Satan with the definite article occurs 13 times in the Masoretic Text, in two books of the Hebrew Bible: Job ch. 1–2 (10×)[10] and Zechariah 3:1–2 (3×).[11] Satan without the definite article is used in 10 instances, of which two are translated diabolos in the Septuagint and "Satan" in the King James Version (KJV):
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There was literally no chance that anti-religionists were not going to prostelyze in this thread.

By the Way? Holey Babble? How do they think up such clever turns of phrase?
But it works. A nonsense word for a nonsense book.
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There was literally no chance that anti-religionists were not going to prostelyze in this thread.

By the Way? Holey Babble? How do they think up such clever turns of phrase?
Whee, bereft of content as usual. Chuck a smiley, why not?
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Old 12th February 2018, 08:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Whee, bereft of content as usual. Chuck a smiley, why not?
Every molecule of the Irony Meter Explodes at the speed of light.

Holey babble! Where do they come up with such wit? Swoon...
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Old 12th February 2018, 08:18 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Every molecule of the Irony Meter Explodes at the speed of light.

Holey babble! Where do they come up with such wit? Swoon...
Feed thousands on a few fishes and loaves of bread. Walk on water. Born of a virgin. I mean he couldn't be conceived by something so prosaic as actual sex...Could he? Rise from the dead, turn water into wine ..my favorite.

But it's in this old book, it must be true....right? Is this irony too?
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
So what is it, is your force of evil an actual being actively seducing people or is it, like you claimed in a previous post, the absence of good and not an actual being at all?

Because now we are back to the point that if your satan is allowed to do all this, does that mean he is as powerful as your god or is he just following your god's plan?
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:49 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sorry, I only speak cajun
Another thread hijacked by TBD ...
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:02 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Another thread hijacked by TBD ...
oh dear....
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:50 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the Way? Holey Babble? How do they think up such clever turns of phrase?
My son calls it the Holly Bibble, not as some sort of strange commentary but just because he can't get the name right. He also got Jesus and Johannes Gutenberg confused, which made for some interesting pseudo-history.

I like that The Big Dog has already said that to disagree with him we have to read all of Aquinas and the Bible *and* not be atheists. That's a cool way to shut down any discussion.

To answer the original question... if I have to pick one I guess Jesus, I do like some of what he said in that book. But if I can pick another character... I've always been fond of Esther, if I need to keep it to protagonists, or if I can go with a more minor character maybe Martha. I always felt bad for her, family friend Jesus shows up and she's trying to be a good host but her sister Mary is just laying around listening to Jesus talk and she's like "Dude will you tell her to help me with the dishes?" but Jesus is no help at all because he thinks the best thing anyone can do is sit around listening to him. And then in some of the later fanfiction she gets to tame a giant monster in France, so that's cool.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:07 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I like that The Big Dog has already said that to disagree with him we have to read all of Aquinas and the Bible *and* not be atheists. That's a cool way to shut down any discussion..
Actually you are conflating several points, and none of them accurately.

The part about atheists and non-religious types "checking in" is that they are derailing the discussion of the OP:

OP: Jesus God or Satan?

Anti-religionists: The BABBBLE IS Teh Fake! Har har har....

Serious posters: Oh dear...
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:31 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan is a grifter and deceiver, and I guess people could buy his con and think he is just a rebellious rogue, but let me ask you, if you are sitting around the poker table and Satan is dealing and you can't tell who the sucker is... well I think you know where this is heading.
Hi Big Dog,

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I appreciate that as a Christian you view Satan as the deceiver. Christianity has a strong tradition of viewing the Devil as such. Deception and manipulation are Satan’s primary weapons because he is not the true power in this. Satan cannot fight God directly, but has to wage a war of propaganda because Satan cannot win fighting directly in open pitched battle. Satan is the Rebel in this, and God is the entrenched power. I do not see how this is in doubt. Big Dog you are not hinting that God is the usurper and Satan is the legitimate ruler of the universe are you?

My point is that there has been a change in the way that “Western Liberal Democracies” view those who are in power. There is not an automatic sense of respect and awe of the heads of state that there was in Classical or Medieval periods.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:33 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I simply reject the beliefs of the Church of Mammom.
It's kind of jarring to see someone who so effectively swats BS away in the CT forum engage in this sort of magical thinking.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:37 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's kind of jarring to see someone who so effectively swats BS away in the CT forum engage in this sort of magical thinking.
Of all the posts that you could have chosen, you choose the least (to use your pejorative and insulting term only for the sake of demonstration) "magical thinking" post in the thread.

Sensational.
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