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Old 8th February 2018, 07:01 AM   #41
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That's the best argument I've ever heard for gender neutral bathrooms. I want social niceties when I'm peeing.
I don't mean outright vulgarity. Something about the maintaining of bodily functions just makes me want to drop all pretense of being formal, as you might when in a more public group. No one really advocates for rest rooms without doors or stalls either, right? The semi-privacy inherent in a rest room seems conducive to that 'we are removed from the social area' feeling. Gender neutral rooms seem more like being still out in the open, if you take my meaning. Not much different than rest facilities in the restaurant's full view.

Quote:
Probably.

At the same time, that's a really good argument for leaving it to the "honor system" of which bathroom to use. It takes away the potential of abuse from the wanna-be fascist associate.
Gender neutral probably is the most reasonable, if they are large enough to provide at least a facade of privacy. Smaller rooms force an all-gender proximate intimacy that I think a lot of people might find creepy. Does a teenage girl really want to go shoulder to shoulder with a middle aged dude in that situation?
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:08 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And thankfully Walgreens changed their policy over it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wa...her/ar-BBIPrNf

The first story says she's not transgender, this other story says she is:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/02/...ught-back-won/

The second story has a picture of her, which I wouldn't describe as "transgender", though certainly not cis-gender either.

Does anyone really still think we should have laws forcing people to use whichever bathroom matches the gender they were born with? It seems to me such policies or laws would inevitably lead to situations where some ignoramus feels empowered to dictate to someone what bathroom they're supposed to use, and get it wrong. Isn't it better to just be more open to the existence of different types of people and not be threatened by it?
I suppose the critical distinction is in genital equipment, not how the face looks, although it might be better to distinguish by psychology.

Hard problem, really. I suppose most men wouldn't really care much if women used the men's room (I have seen it occasionally, as there is often a longer line in front of the ladies room), but women should be protected against some jerk walking around in the ladies room. *)

Hans

*) I know there are also female jerks, but ...
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:11 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If I wasn't informed that this person is transgender I would think that I'm looking at a butch lesbian.

The hairstyle combined with the piercings strongly suggests lesbianism to me. This person may indeed live their life as a lesbian. Identifying as a woman and is sexually attracted to women. It's a hunch.
I have met girls much more masculine than that, who were definitely neither transgender, nor gay.


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Old 8th February 2018, 07:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I'm only getting my junk out because I need to pee, not because I finally don't have to conform to social mores anymore, or because I want to... it's purely functional, and I don't care what the genitalia of the person using the stall a few feet away look like.

And since I don't want to draw any attention to myself when I'm taking a dump or standing there urinating, I'd even say that the bathroom is a place where propriety is more important than back at the bar.
I hear you, but there may be attendant...sounds...and smells...that you might feel uncomfortable advertising to a stranger of the opposite sex next to you. A large enough facility can mitigate that, certainly. Not everywhere will have enough available real estate for that luxury.

If the gender specificity is unnecessary in a bathroom, and people should be comfortable with it, what is the reasoned argument for having walls around a rest room at all?
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:14 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Hard problem, really. I suppose most men wouldn't really care much if women used the men's room (I have seen it occasionally, as there is often a longer line in front of the ladies room), but women should be protected against some jerk walking around in the ladies room.
I understand the feeling, but not how it would work...
Are men who really want to harrass women in toilets somehow deterred by the social convention of gendered bathrooms, but not the more important social convention of not committing sexual assault?
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not that. In my experience, bathrooms are safe zones where you can drop social niceties for a minute ('Murican male POV).
Really? I just go there to pee or whatever, so there's not much interaction.

Plus, all we need is stalls. Urinals are smaller but otherwise redundant.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I'd sorely miss urinals if they were gone. An establishment could, I imagine, have the urinals separated from the rest of the bathroom by some sort of partition and still have the bathroom be gender neutral. Any of you guys ever run a business where you have to deal with these sorts of issues?
The last company I worked for (big, international company) had gender-neutral toilets. And no urinals, so if you're a man with a poor aim (can't see it for the belly, perhaps?), just ... sit.

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Old 8th February 2018, 07:21 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not that. In my experience, bathrooms are safe zones where you can drop social niceties for a minute.
Drop social niceties?

Look up on on the internet about the "rules for which urinal to choose"

I mean, it's considered bad form to stand in a urinal next to another guy unless that is the only one available!

(for that reason, in a 3 urinal bathroom, I always go to the middle, to try to make the other guys uncomfortable)

You might claim that bathrooms have a different form of niceties, but to claim they can be dropped?

That's a laugh.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:23 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If the gender specificity is unnecessary in a bathroom, and people should be comfortable with it, what is the reasoned argument for having walls around a rest room at all?
It's not up to me to dictate what people should or should not be comfortable with.
I understand that how people feel about these things is much more important than any kind of risk assessment.
If that means gendered toilets, because they make people feel more at ease, no problem.

But this panic about trans men and butch women is taking it too far. (Not saying you disagree with that of course)
Everyone has to use the bathroom, and demanding that strangers prove what kind of genitals they have because you think they look icky isn't helping anyone.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:24 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm a tad worried about my next visit to the USA and using a public toilet, I've not been for a few years but the change in behaviour worries me. All these people exposing themselves in loos, walking around showing their genitals, pulling down their pants and making people look at other people's genitals! Sounds like a notorious cottage from the 1960s!
Not only that, but apparently there are people vetting you before you get to go in.

I don't recall having had to prove anything before walking into a bathroom, nor seeing others having to present their sexual credentials. I'm imagining the want ad for that job. Wanted, gender monitor for public toilet. Must be prurient busybody. Visual impairment preferred.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:29 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Really? I just go there to pee or whatever, so there's not much interaction.

Plus, all we need is stalls. Urinals are smaller but otherwise redundant.
Yeah, when actively using the facilities, elevator protocol is in effect. What I mean is that you would not normally whip it out in any other social situation, so the niceties are de facto suspended. IME, guys are not overly concerned if they are partially exposed while taking care of business (some public rooms do not bother to partition urinal stalls at all). Different story if a young lady is within arms reach.

RE: urinals. Lower water consumption, simpler maintenance, less space needed. Saves significant money for the provider.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Drop social niceties?

Look up on on the internet about the "rules for which urinal to choose"

I mean, it's considered bad form to stand in a urinal next to another guy unless that is the only one available!

(for that reason, in a 3 urinal bathroom, I always go to the middle, to try to make the other guys uncomfortable)

You might claim that bathrooms have a different form of niceties, but to claim they can be dropped?

That's a laugh.
Savage dominance move. Drawback: you may never know who is responsible for those drops on your shoes.

Re: niceties. In what other social situations do you unsheathe the beast among strangers? I mean, call me puritanical, but...
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Savage dominance move. Drawback: you may never know who is responsible for those drops on your shoes.

Re: niceties. In what other social situations do you unsheathe the beast among strangers? I mean, call me puritanical, but...
"In what other social situations do you do X" is a question you can ask about pretty much anything.

Doesn't matter. There are absolutely social conventions in bathrooms that apply to using the bathrooms, in contrast to your initial assertion
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
"In what other social situations do you do X" is a question you can ask about pretty much anything.

Doesn't matter. There are absolutely social conventions in bathrooms that apply to using the bathrooms, in contrast to your initial assertion
Your objection is that I didn't include the appallingly, glaringly, comically obvious qualifier 'SOME' niceties in my 'initial assertion'? Please tell me you are just having a laugh at the pissant pedantics which pass as discussion.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:01 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, when actively using the facilities, elevator protocol is in effect. What I mean is that you would not normally whip it out in any other social situation, so the niceties are de facto suspended.
That's just a strange way to see this.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's just a strange way to see this.
It's an interesting way to see it, at least. Food for thought.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:03 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
I haven't run any business, but recently I was at a conference center in Amsterdam with "gender neutral" bathrooms. The urinals in the former men's room were still there, but there was also free sanitary pads and tampons at the sink. Weird stuff. I wouldn't want to stand there and piss with women in the room, and there weren't any, either.
There'd be toilets in many restaurants in French ski resorts that'd blow your mind. A couple of urinals, a couple of unisex stalls all in the same room and a queue out the door.

Really it was no problem. If the ladies could see anything, it's likely nothing they haven't seen before.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
There'd be toilets in many restaurants in French ski resorts that'd blow your mind. A couple of urinals, a couple of unisex stalls all in the same room and a queue out the door.

Really it was no problem. If the ladies could see anything, it's likely nothing they haven't seen before.
It gets mighty cold up there in the Alps in winter...
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:27 AM   #59
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Why are men assuming that women and girls would be crowding them at urinals? I know women who can pee standing up, but that's usually an outdoors thing, not an "I can use urinals!" thing.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:32 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Why are men assuming that women and girls would be crowding them at urinals? I know women who can pee standing up, but that's usually an outdoors thing, not an "I can use urinals!" thing.
I think the fear is that if there are unisex toilets, there won't be urinals because otherwise ladies may see the gentlemen's willies.

However, in some parts of the world (Manchester for example), there are al fresco urinals, particularly on match days.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:33 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post

(for that reason, in a 3 urinal bathroom, I always go to the middle, to try to make the other guys uncomfortable).
Comfort is just one of the reasons, the others include splashback, and not wafting in odors and gas unless necessary.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:34 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
There'd be toilets in many restaurants in French ski resorts that'd blow your mind. A couple of urinals, a couple of unisex stalls all in the same room and a queue out the door.

Really it was no problem. If the ladies could see anything, it's likely nothing they haven't seen before.
I was in Paris in '80 and the big new thing was McDonald's on the Champs Elysees. Of course we had to go. It had a unisex bathroom exactly as you describe. It was a wonderment to we teenage USAians, and we were a bit disappointed to find it was just people using the bathroom like they did anywhere, and not some orgy scene from Caligula
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:09 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I was in Paris in '80 and the big new thing was McDonald's on the Champs Elysees. Of course we had to go. It had a unisex bathroom exactly as you describe. It was a wonderment to we teenage USAians, and we were a bit disappointed to find it was just people using the bathroom like they did anywhere, and not some orgy scene from Caligula
Exactly this. It really is quite a boring issue and once experienced makes the whole "brew-ha-ha" hard to understand.

I've encountered a significant number of gender neutral/gender agnostic public restrooms in California and elsewhere so I've seen the concept addressed in a number of ways. Most often it just involved providing a few extra rooms with single toilets and sinks in addition to the normal mass men's/women's rooms for those who want extra space (i.e. handicapped or changing a kid's diaper) or extra privacy. People can self select and I rarely have seen any lines waiting for these. Also frequent is just having the mass restrooms retained but a committing a little extra architectural effort toward promoting privacy in the individual cubicles; all genders pee and poop in relative privacy but share the sinks. In more rare cases (some locations in San Francisco for example) the only change from the usual mass restrooms were changes to the signs on the door. The rooms typically just have the normal type of cubicles; you go in and do your business as usual. No public display of genitals is involved. Intentionally flashing men or women with your genitals, peeking under or over the stalls, or eying through the gaps in the partitions is against the law in these restrooms as it is in any public spot.

Really, it is not a big deal.

Okay- what if someone in a gender neutral bathroom acts creepy toward the opposite gender. Well, I presume that many of us at one time or another have been approached in a gender-segregated restroom by someone of our gender who appeared to express some sexual interest in us (e.g. "a wide stance"). Has it happened often? For me- maybe every few years (perhaps I am too ugly). Was it the end of the world if one was not interested? In my experience I only had to ignore them. If they were persistent or gross one could notify managers or the police. No big deal.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Comfort is just one of the reasons, the others include splashback, and not wafting in odors and gas unless necessary.
Have you ever noticed that for some reason stepping up to a urinal also causes many men to spit? Strange... Outside of a dentist's office I seldom feel the need to spit but these folks must spend their day accumulating a lot of both urine and saliva and just waiting for a chance to pee and spit.

The grossest urinal use I've seen (more than once) is at sporting venues where guys come up the the urinal with a plastic cup of beer clinched in their teeth. Yellow liquid in and yellow liquid out...
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:24 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
No need, I live in the country where there are many trees and few neighbors

But, I have at least two friends who do.

Thats rather not the point, tho, is it? None of this bathroom silliness has ever had anything to do with private privvies.

(ETA: in case it has escaped notice, urinals exist in public bathrooms because they are far more efficient in high traffic situations, given the typical male anatomy.)
Nowwwww... not really enjoying the mental picture you just gave me with your caveat of "...given the typical male anatomy" because the natural follow up question is "okay, but what about the atypical male anatomy" and then "atypical in what way" and then "I really, really hate you now because my imagination is running amok."
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:24 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I was in Paris in '80 and the big new thing was McDonald's on the Champs Elysees. Of course we had to go. It had a unisex bathroom exactly as you describe. It was a wonderment to we teenage USAians, and we were a bit disappointed to find it was just people using the bathroom like they did anywhere, and not some orgy scene from Caligula
Did you order a beer and a Royale with cheese?
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:50 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Nowwwww... not really enjoying the mental picture you just gave me with your caveat of "...given the typical male anatomy" because the natural follow up question is "okay, but what about the atypical male anatomy" and then "atypical in what way" and then "I really, really hate you now because my imagination is running amok."
Imagination? You don't need that when there is google image search!

But, really, I was trying to be accommodating of any folks who might identify as "male" but lack the standard equipment our imaginations fill in when considering "males" at the urinal.
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:52 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Did you order a beer and a Royale with cheese?
Heh. I can't remember McDonald's food ever being memorable. But, I remember the unisex bathroom!
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:02 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Imagination? You don't need that when there is google image search!

But, really, I was trying to be accommodating of any folks who might identify as "male" but lack the standard equipment our imaginations fill in when considering "males" at the urinal.
No, I know... just can't seem to help myself the last few days.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I hear you, but there may be attendant...sounds...and smells...that you might feel uncomfortable advertising to a stranger of the opposite sex next to you. A large enough facility can mitigate that, certainly. Not everywhere will have enough available real estate for that luxury.

If the gender specificity is unnecessary in a bathroom, and people should be comfortable with it, what is the reasoned argument for having walls around a rest room at all?
Are people living in bathrooms? I mean outside of a health club or a major sporting event I can't recall the last time I used a public restroom large enough for most of these issues to occur. Usually I'm in a restaurant washing my hands before I eat. Sometimes those are unisex restrooms designed for one person.

This thread makes it sound like restrooms are a social gathering teeming with people. For me, it's a place I go only if I must.

But in any case, we have very few realistic choices:
- Two restrooms, one for women one for men.
- Restrooms for everyone.

The law is useless here, the story in the OP proves it. Or are people going to start recording and turning each other over to the police, because without a cop being in the bathroom you can make all the laws you want and they will be meaningless without enforcement.

This, in my opinion, is a dead issue because there is no feasible solution other than the status quo. For the very very few who are having an issue with this, work it out for yourself. Sorry, but in this case it not only is not worth the effort to make everyone happy, it is impossible.

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Old 8th February 2018, 01:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I understand the feeling, but not how it would work...
Are men who really want to harrass women in toilets somehow deterred by the social convention of gendered bathrooms, but not the more important social convention of not committing sexual assault?
I don't really know, but there must be a difference between being immediately out of bounds the moment you open the door and being allowed to enter so you can hang around till someone looks like a possible victim.

There are also those who don't actually DO anything, but still make others nervous.


Hans
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #72
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Joking right?
No.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
\

Does anyone really still think we should have laws forcing people to use whichever bathroom ...
I've been using whatever bathroom is available for decades ... I do NOT understand the debate.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:09 PM   #74
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I live in a tiny city of 30,000 population ... and There is 3 different restaurants/bars here who do NOT have gender designation on any of the bathrooms.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No.
Okay. IMHO if in your private life you often do similar evaluations of people's sexuality by their physical appearance you might wish to apply your conclusions cautiously. Errors can prove very embarrassing! For example where I live I've seen the look in the OP among several women bikers out riding Harleys with "their" men. They represent an excellent example of a situation in which it is best to not openly speculate as to sexual preference or gender identity.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:01 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I don't really know, but there must be a difference between being immediately out of bounds the moment you open the door and being allowed to enter so you can hang around till someone looks like a possible victim.

There are also those who don't actually DO anything, but still make others nervous.


Hans
The same issue is equally true of gender-segregated public restrooms. It is estimated that some 5 to 10% of the population is gay. Obviously gay men are fully in bounds in using "our" restrooms (assuming you are male). Have either of us been stalked by such a person hanging out in a restroom for the purpose of finding an opportunity to attack us? Not in my experience. I imagine it occurs rarely but it is not such a common issue that we have special locks on the cubicles or police in every restroom. The people who might do such an evil thing, gay or straight, are rare and we rely on the laws against peeping, exposing oneself, sexual assault, etc. to protect ourselves from those not so internally retrained.

I don't see any special additional risk of allowing women into "our" restroom- most of them will, in common with the gay men I've shared my peeing with, probably not attack me.

Oh, did you mean the reverse? A concern that women are physically more vulnerable to an attack by a male molester? I'm pretty weak and I doubt the absence of me being attacked all these years relates to how threatening I looked to a potential attacker. Probably half the female population could wipe the floor with me.

BTY I was always very cautious about letting my little kids use any public restroom by themselves, but this was due to my concern about a variety of risks, not a fear of gay people per se. Which brings up the issue of when one is out in public with one's young child of opposite gender, where does one take them when they need to go? In fact many men take their very young daughters to men's restrooms, correctly concluding this is less disruptive than them going into a women's restroom. And vis versa for moms and sons. So when people shout "Think of the children" we already know that sharing a restroom with people of the opposite gender does not ruin the life of a "poor impressionable child." If no one makes a fuss the kid will never have a reason to think twice about it.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:21 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
T
BTY I was always very cautious about letting my little kids use any public restroom by themselves ...
Now something that is important ... We didn't let our kids (4 of them) use public restroom on their own till they were probably 10 years old.

As you say for SOOO Many Reasons ... heck ... If nothing else so they remember to wash their hands before returning to their meal.

If it was my duty to bring our daughter to the restroom I went in the girls room ... NEVER got any flack or attitude from ladies or girls using the room ...

Often if it was small restroom I'd just stand outside the door.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:39 PM   #78
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay. IMHO if in your private life you often do similar evaluations of people's sexuality by their physical appearance you might wish to apply your conclusions cautiously. Errors can prove very embarrassing! For example where I live I've seen the look in the OP among several women bikers out riding Harleys with "their" men. They represent an excellent example of a situation in which it is best to not openly speculate as to sexual preference or gender identity.
I do make visual evaluations of people in real life but it's never been a problem. There's no doubt that I have avoided some time wasted on flirting with lesbians. I've avoided the same with transgender flirting.

That one's a lesbian. So I won't hit on her. That one has a dick. So I won't hit on her.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I do make visual evaluations of people in real life but it's never been a problem. There's no doubt that I have avoided some time wasted on flirting with lesbians. I've avoided the same with transgender flirting.

That one's a lesbian. So I won't hit on her. That one has a dick. So I won't hit on her.
But how often were you able to confirm your visual assessments? Perhaps many of the people you visually concluded were lesbians or transgender were in fact intensely passionate, straight, cis-woman with extraordinarily deep understandings of the intricate physical pleasures of love! You may have unknowingly turned away from nights, or even weeks of physical pleasure so intense that the tiniest pale memories of these couplings would occupy your dreams even now, decades later.

Hell- David Bowie assumed a variety of persona whose looks would be viewed by many as indicating he was gay yet I gather he was quite willing to have a giggle with a significant number of women.


Of course if a given look doesn't appeal to you- fine- that is a different issue. But if the concern was that someone who looked "that way" and was attractive to you would not reciprocally be interested in you- who knows what wonderful relationships you may have given up.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:41 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
"In what other social situations do you do X" is a question you can ask about pretty much anything.

Doesn't matter. There are absolutely social conventions in bathrooms that apply to using the bathrooms, in contrast to your initial assertion
Absolutely, if I'm sat in a booth in a restaurant and my salt runs out, I'll ignore the convention of privacy and stick my head over the divider to see if yours is in use before asking to borrow it. If the loo roll's run out in the bathroom stall, not so much.
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