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Old 8th February 2018, 08:38 PM   #81
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But how often were you able to confirm your visual assessments? Perhaps many of the people you visually concluded were lesbians or transgender were in fact intensely passionate, straight, cis-woman with extraordinarily deep understandings of the intricate physical pleasures of love! You may have unknowingly turned away from nights, or even weeks of physical pleasure so intense that the tiniest pale memories of these couplings would occupy your dreams even now, decades later.

Hell- David Bowie assumed a variety of persona whose looks would be viewed by many as indicating he was gay yet I gather he was quite willing to have a giggle with a significant number of women.


Of course if a given look doesn't appeal to you- fine- that is a different issue. But if the concern was that someone who looked "that way" and was attractive to you would not reciprocally be interested in you- who knows what wonderful relationships you may have given up.
Well said. Or put another way. Who the **** are you to deny me access to the bathroom?
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:58 PM   #82
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So, to go over plenty of ground that has been trod upon before.....


We are talking about bathroom use here, but we are talking about policies that apply to locker rooms as well. While it is unusual for people to appear nude or to be exposed in a state of partial undress in a bathroom, it is normal for that to occur in a locker room, and most people seem to want similar policies applied to each sort of facility.

In the United States and, as far as I know everywhere else in the world, there are certain bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc that are designated for use by men, or by women. While some people think we should do away with such designations, the vast majority of Americans (and I suspect others) think those designations should remain. Therefore, we are stuck with them for the foreseeable future.

Since they are designated for use by men and women in separate facilities, we have to decide whether that designation is meant to be a "rule", or a "recommendation". If it isn't meant to be a rule, then there is no problem. Anyone can use any facility they wish. There might be social condemnation from some people they encounter, but that's just a matter of attitude. If it is not a rule, then we can simply do what we feel like when we feel like, which means next time I go to a health club, I can go into the women's locker room.

If, on the other hand, those designations are meant to be rules, then we have to decide what those rules mean. i.e. who should be considered a man, and who should be considered a woman. We can make this decision on the basis of anatomy, or psychology.

It's fairly simple, really. Do you have to obey the signs, and if so, exactly who is a man, versus who is a woman?

Whether using psychology or anatomy, there are a very, very, small number of people who can't be cleanly categorized, and someone will have to sort out those cases. We can keep adding footnotes to the policy to try and cover every possible contingency, or we can empower somebody to make those decisions on a case by case basis.


For my part, I vote anatomy as the decider. I do this because people, especially women, generally don't want to expose themselves to unknown persons of the opposite sex, and if she can see male anatomy, she will think of that person as male. As I have said many times before, if a woman sees a penis, she will leap to the conclusion that there is a man attached to it.

For a slightly more specific example, I will say that under no circumstances would I support any law or policy that requires a teenaged girl to take off her clothes in the presence of a biological male. I also will not require her to skip any normal activity, i.e. gym class, in order to avoid taking off her clothes in the presence of a biological male, nor will I compel her to leave her customary changing area, where a reasonable expectation exists that only women be present, in order to facilitate a biological male's wish to be treated like an ordinary girl.

If this be bigotry, then let's make the most of it.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So, to go over plenty of ground that has been trod upon before.....

tl;dr

The OP has nothing to do with what you just wrote.
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:34 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
tl;dr

The OP has nothing to do with what you just wrote.
In a way it doesn't but in another way it does.

The way in which it does not is that this story is about a woman who wanted to use the woman's toilet and was refused.

However, the OP does propose a solution which suggests that anyone can use whichever bathroom they feel like. From that, the considerations of Meadmaker can follow.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

Does anyone really still think we should have laws forcing people to use whichever bathroom matches the gender they were born with? It seems to me such policies or laws would inevitably lead to situations where some ignoramus feels empowered to dictate to someone what bathroom they're supposed to use, and get it wrong. Isn't it better to just be more open to the existence of different types of people and not be threatened by it?
As I have said, it seems strange that the woman in the OP was refused use of the toilet. It wouldn't surprise me if the member of staff was doing so as an insult, which is certainly a problem in and of itself.

However, in places where there are segregated toilets, if you were a member of staff somewhere and someone who genuinely looked like a fully-grown man, as in a cis-gendered man, maybe with a beard was heading into a woman's toilet, wouldn't you stop him going in?

I think at some of the places where I have worked, if I saw this happening I am pretty sure I would tell the man they cannot go in there.
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay. IMHO if in your private life you often do similar evaluations of people's sexuality by their physical appearance you might wish to apply your conclusions cautiously. Errors can prove very embarrassing! For example where I live I've seen the look in the OP among several women bikers out riding Harleys with "their" men. They represent an excellent example of a situation in which it is best to not openly speculate as to sexual preference or gender identity.
I'm a little bit confused about what you mean by this. Do you mean that if you see a biker gang park up and the women happen to look like lesbians then your advice is you shouldn't yell out, "Oh those women look like lesbians!" because you may run a non-trivial risk of getting beaten up?

Well, sure. But that doesn't mean you can't form a belief about someone based on their appearance.

In fact, I would probably think that I can judge that someone is more or less likely to be a biker based on their attire, or more or less likely to be interested in heavy metal music, or rap music based on their attire and their appearance, and I may not feel the need to loudly proclaim it, but that doesn't mean it is taboo to discuss this.

Do you think there is some taboo about suggesting someone looks like a lesbian in the context of this discussion on the forum?
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Errors can prove very embarrassing! For example where I live I've seen the look in the OP among several women bikers out riding Harleys with "their" men.
I should respond to what you said here.

I would not necessarily agree with you that the heterosexual biker chicks you have seen actually do have "the look" of the person in the OP. I would need to see the actual people you are talking about so that I could evaluate what I see. I might end up disagreeing with you about the look being the same. I might be able to point out the obvious or subtle differences to you.

The thing is, you can't say that I would make an error without actually running an experiment to show me make the error. IOW, you can't assume that I would declare your biker chicks to be lesbians.

It's also possible that you saw some lesbian bikers and thought that they were hetero.
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:39 PM   #87
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Perhaps they could solve a bit of this by having one "express" lane bathroom where only #1 is allowed. Many urinals and low or no volume flushing stalls for those who can't use urinals. The second bathroom can be the sit down bathroom with more private stalls. Lower volume, but longer stays.

Even add a third "powder room". One with just sinks and mirrors for a quick fix up when no other relief is required.

All gender neutral.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Absolutely, if I'm sat in a booth in a restaurant and my salt runs out, I'll ignore the convention of privacy and stick my head over the divider to see if yours is in use before asking to borrow it. If the loo roll's run out in the bathroom stall, not so much.
What are you even using the salt for in the bathroom stall?
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:26 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm a little bit confused about what you mean by this. Do you mean that if you see a biker gang park up and the women happen to look like lesbians then your advice is you shouldn't yell out, "Oh those women look like lesbians!" because you may run a non-trivial risk of getting beaten up?

Well, sure. But that doesn't mean you can't form a belief about someone based on their appearance.

In fact, I would probably think that I can judge that someone is more or less likely to be a biker based on their attire, or more or less likely to be interested in heavy metal music, or rap music based on their attire and their appearance, and I may not feel the need to loudly proclaim it, but that doesn't mean it is taboo to discuss this.

Do you think there is some taboo about suggesting someone looks like a lesbian in the context of this discussion on the forum?
Apparently my attempts to state my beliefs in what are intended to be slightly light hearted ways are distracting so I will omit the whimsy.

My central point is that one should apply the very old and wise saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover" to any attempt to judge an individual's sexuality based on their appearance. William Parcher concluded that the women in the OP was very probably a lesbian based on her picture and felt confident enough in this judgement to post it. You concurred.

My point: she might be... or not... Subsequent information may indeed reveal her sexual orientation. But determining her sexual orientation just by her appearance is inherently flawed and is often insulting to many people. Sure, some gay and lesbian people dress and act stereotypically to advertise their interests. But many (probably most) do not and many straight people who just happen to look or dress a particular way have had others stereotype them in ways that they are not. How many times have more effeminate guys been bullied in high school as gay (that not being the word that is used) because of their appearance? Or strong looking women been "accused" of being "butch" because they don't wear dresses, have long hair, or use makeup? Sure, most of us here know that being gay or a lesbian is good and equal to being straight- but in many parts of of our society these are still considered bad and used as insults.

Yes, you can reach any conclusions you wish on any basis you desire as long as you don't use those conclusions to hurt anyone. Fine by me. Particularly if you don't mind being in error a significant part of the time. If you wish to cite your conclusions as part of a post on this forum, then you have a right to do so but I am then free to question the legitimacy of your conclusions and any subsequent arguments or discussions you base on these conclusions.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Apparently my attempts to state my beliefs in what are intended to be slightly light hearted ways are distracting so I will omit the whimsy.

My central point is that one should apply the very old and wise saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover" to any attempt to judge an individual's sexuality based on their appearance. William Parcher concluded that the women in the OP was very probably a lesbian based on her picture and felt confident enough in this judgement to post it. You concurred.

My point: she might be... or not... Subsequent information may indeed reveal her sexual orientation. But determining her sexual orientation just by her appearance is inherently flawed and is often insulting to many people. Sure, some gay and lesbian people dress and act stereotypically to advertise their interests. But many (probably most) do not and many straight people who just happen to look or dress a particular way have had others stereotype them in ways that they are not. How many times have more effeminate guys been bullied in high school as gay (that not being the word that is used) because of their appearance? Or strong looking women been "accused" of being "butch" because they don't wear dresses, have long hair, or use makeup? Sure, most of us here know that being gay or a lesbian is good and equal to being straight- but in many parts of of our society these are still considered bad and used as insults.

Yes, you can reach any conclusions you wish on any basis you desire as long as you don't use those conclusions to hurt anyone. Fine by me. Particularly if you don't mind being in error a significant part of the time. If you wish to cite your conclusions as part of a post on this forum, then you have a right to do so but I am then free to question the legitimacy of your conclusions and any subsequent arguments or discussions you base on these conclusions.
added in edit: I am only suggesting one need to use significant caution in characterizing people based on their appearance- not suggesting that appearance is meaningless.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:44 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My central point is that one should apply the very old and wise saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover" to any attempt to judge an individual's sexuality based on their appearance. William Parcher concluded that the women in the OP was very probably a lesbian based on her picture and felt confident enough in this judgement to post it. You concurred.

My point: she might be... or not... Subsequent information may indeed reveal her sexual orientation. But determining her sexual orientation just by her appearance is inherently flawed and is often insulting to many people.
Yet you also posted this:
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If I had to make any predictions from the photo they would be that she doesn’t often wear frilly dresses and, maybe, she might punch you if you stole her beer at a bar.
Saying she looks gay is insulting, but saying she looks like a butch beer guzzler who'd punch you just like a stereotypical dude would is OK?

I don't think either of your assumptions was better or worse than the other.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:55 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
What are you even using the salt for in the bathroom stall?
The salt I understand, it's the three seashells that I don't get.


Anyway, overzealous manager in LA during Pride assumes woman is a drag queen, woman gets pissed off and makes a stink, corporate hears about it and tells employees it's not their place to be the bathroom police, woman accepts apology. Sounds like the system is working fine.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:58 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yet you also posted this:

Saying she looks gay is insulting, but saying she looks like a butch beer guzzler who'd punch you just like a stereotypical dude would is OK?

I don't think either of your assumptions was better or worse than the other.
Proving once again attempts at sarcasm or humor fail even more often on the Internet than in person. I was not intending to be taken seriously- I was trying to highlight the absurdity of making conclusions based on appearance.
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:07 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I should respond to what you said here.

I would not necessarily agree with you that the heterosexual biker chicks you have seen actually do have "the look" of the person in the OP. I would need to see the actual people you are talking about so that I could evaluate what I see. I might end up disagreeing with you about the look being the same. I might be able to point out the obvious or subtle differences to you.

The thing is, you can't say that I would make an error without actually running an experiment to show me make the error. IOW, you can't assume that I would declare your biker chicks to be lesbians.

It's also possible that you saw some lesbian bikers and thought that they were hetero.
And which bathroom will you allow them to use?
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #95
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Bah.

Go back to outhouses, problem solved.
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
And which bathroom will you allow them to use?
Who?

Really I don't care what bathroom anybody uses. I go to the men's bathroom as a habit and it seems proper to do. But I wouldn't care if somebody who wasn't a man was in there with me. I wouldn't complain to management if I saw a female or transgender in the men's room. I just don't care.
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:56 PM   #97
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This certainly is an odd business. I've spent a good percentage of my 70 years in mens' rooms and I don't recall ever seeing a man waving his penis around. Rather the opposite usually. I suspect that a person who is a woman or intends to be a woman or thinks she is a woman or whatever transitional state she might find herself in would either not have a penis to wave around, or would not flaunt it if she did, and would, I suspect, use a stall. That's all there is in ladies' rooms anyway. The likelihood that anything other than the expected bodily function would occur seems vanishingly small, and probably smaller than what could easily be attempted and accomplished by an actual criminal wishing to do harm.

What is really happening, in short, is that whoever was responsible for the event under consideration here was saying one thing only: I THINK YOU ARE A CRIMINAL. I don't know about you, but I'd be damned angry if someone did that to me.

As for the question of whether it is appropriate to speculate on whether a person is a lesbian, it seems to me to show how far we still have to go. Some day, not likely in my lifetime, but some day perhaps, we'll be at the stage where being thought a lesbian won't be an insult at all, and a person wrongly thought so can just say "no I'm not" and that will be the end of it.
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Old 9th February 2018, 04:06 PM   #98
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Having been to a few gay pride parades, I gotta believe that our hero had a belly full of beer.
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Old 9th February 2018, 04:11 PM   #99
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Pretty soon it's going to be that you're not feminine enough to use the men's room.
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Old 9th February 2018, 05:02 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Bah.

Go back to outhouses, problem solved.
The old fashioned outhouse is an UNSUNG HERO of the reduction of environmental responsibility

With the average flush toilet 4 GALLONS of refuse has to be dealt with ... an out house? ... every 4 or 5 years you just drag it over 20 feet to the new pit ... left long enough what's left behind is only awesome fertilizer
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Old 9th February 2018, 08:24 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Apparently my attempts to state my beliefs in what are intended to be slightly light hearted ways are distracting so I will omit the whimsy.

My central point is that one should apply the very old and wise saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover" to any attempt to judge an individual's sexuality based on their appearance.
I disagree with the old and wise saying in its literal sense and also in many of its applications. And I think you also agree that you can judge a person's sexuality, even if you think that it is not always a reliable guide. You even concede that point, as I will show you.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
William Parcher concluded that the women in the OP was very probably a lesbian based on her picture and felt confident enough in this judgement to post it. You concurred.
You have to remember the context of the thread, which is that the OP was saying he didn't think the woman in the photograph looked transgender. William Parcher said, "If I wasn't informed that this person is transgender I would think that I'm looking at a butch lesbian.

The hairstyle combined with the piercings strongly suggests lesbianism to me. This person may indeed live their life as a lesbian. Identifying as a woman and is sexually attracted to women. It's a hunch."


So he is following on from the discussion of whether or not the woman in the OP was transgender, and only saying that her appearance strongly suggested she is a lesbian. There's nothing wrong with being a lesbian or looking like one. But I get the impression you are drawing the conclusion that one or both of us have suggested that there is, or that it is wrong to even acknowledge the idea of a lesbian look.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My point: she might be... or not... Subsequent information may indeed reveal her sexual orientation.
Well, sure. The fact that she was on her way to a Gay Pride March and she is featured in the LGBT News is a bit of a giveaway as well. It might be that such details have influenced mine or William Parcher's judgment about her sexuality. I just happen to disagree with your objection that such judgments are beyond the pale.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But determining her sexual orientation just by her appearance is inherently flawed and is often insulting to many people. Sure, some gay and lesbian people dress and act stereotypically to advertise their interests.
Well, there you go. In which case the "don't judge a book by its cover" admonition cannot be a categorical statement.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But many (probably most) do not and many straight people who just happen to look or dress a particular way have had others stereotype them in ways that they are not. How many times have more effeminate guys been bullied in high school as gay (that not being the word that is used) because of their appearance? Or strong looking women been "accused" of being "butch" because they don't wear dresses, have long hair, or use makeup? Sure, most of us here know that being gay or a lesbian is good and equal to being straight- but in many parts of of our society these are still considered bad and used as insults.

Yes, you can reach any conclusions you wish on any basis you desire as long as you don't use those conclusions to hurt anyone. Fine by me. Particularly if you don't mind being in error a significant part of the time. If you wish to cite your conclusions as part of a post on this forum, then you have a right to do so but I am then free to question the legitimacy of your conclusions and any subsequent arguments or discussions you base on these conclusions.
I've never denied your right to respond. I think that what you are doing is confusing different issues. I am not saying such things to be insulting, or to bully, and I agree that in some contexts, "You look like a lesbian!" can be an ugly thing to say. I am disagreeing with the insinuation that this is one of them. It is not meant that way. To say that she is a lesbian, rather than transgender, is to say that under any circumstances in which she is likely to be in, she is perfectly entitled to use the women's toilets.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I disagree with the old and wise saying in its literal sense and also in many of its applications. And I think you also agree that you can judge a person's sexuality, even if you think that it is not always a reliable guide. You even concede that point, as I will show you.



You have to remember the context of the thread, which is that the OP was saying he didn't think the woman in the photograph looked transgender. William Parcher said, "If I wasn't informed that this person is transgender I would think that I'm looking at a butch lesbian.

The hairstyle combined with the piercings strongly suggests lesbianism to me. This person may indeed live their life as a lesbian. Identifying as a woman and is sexually attracted to women. It's a hunch."


So he is following on from the discussion of whether or not the woman in the OP was transgender, and only saying that her appearance strongly suggested she is a lesbian. There's nothing wrong with being a lesbian or looking like one. But I get the impression you are drawing the conclusion that one or both of us have suggested that there is, or that it is wrong to even acknowledge the idea of a lesbian look.



Well, sure. The fact that she was on her way to a Gay Pride March and she is featured in the LGBT News is a bit of a giveaway as well. It might be that such details have influenced mine or William Parcher's judgment about her sexuality. I just happen to disagree with your objection that such judgments are beyond the pale.



Well, there you go. In which case the "don't judge a book by its cover" admonition cannot be a categorical statement.



I've never denied your right to respond. I think that what you are doing is confusing different issues. I am not saying such things to be insulting, or to bully, and I agree that in some contexts, "You look like a lesbian!" can be an ugly thing to say. I am disagreeing with the insinuation that this is one of them. It is not meant that way. To say that she is a lesbian, rather than transgender, is to say that under any circumstances in which she is likely to be in, she is perfectly entitled to use the women's toilets.
I do not wish to just repeat myself, so I just restate my points once and simply:
1. People's looks sometimes parallel their sexuality, but more often do not. Judging someone's sexuality from their looks therefore often yields the wrong answer. This conclusion was strongly confirmed for me during the years I lived in very open communities such as the SF Bay Area. Here's another saying for you, "appearances can be deceiving."
2. It also trivializes a person to make conclusions about something as emotionally central and personal to them as their sexuality based on a haircut and piercings. Also stereotyping people based on their appearance has been the source of much stupidity and discrimination. In fact the discrimination described in the OP was based on just such a flawed judgement: "you don't look feminine enough to be a real woman."
3.As a result, for the purposes of accuracy, politeness and fairness, I believe that it is best to avoid making conclusions about sexual orientation based on appearance. Further, the person under consideration has every right to rebuke any such conclusion with the line, "Who the hell asked you?"

I don't think we fundamentally disagree on these points but just on the emphasis. We both agree that sometimes one can judge a book by its cover with you saying it therefore can be useful and me saying it can be so wrong as to it being better to avoid doing so, I've pretty much said all I have to say along these lines. But I am happy that we all agree that the woman in the OP should be able to pee in any restroom she wants to pee in.

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Old 9th February 2018, 10:39 PM   #103
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Was the woman in the OP deemed masculine enough for the men's room?
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:27 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And thankfully Walgreens changed their policy over it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wa...her/ar-BBIPrNf

The first story says she's not transgender, this other story says she is:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/02/...ught-back-won/

The second story has a picture of her, which I wouldn't describe as "transgender", though certainly not cis-gender either.
Ironically, of all the media venues, it is the LGBTQ Nation which gets it wrong.

Jessie is cisgender, not transgender. I actually thought she was transgender because I thought the LGBTQ media would certainly be the ones getting it correct.

What that means is that Jessie was born with a vagina and she does identify as female. However, cisgender doesn't inform you of a person's sexual orientation, it only tells you that they identify with their birth gender.

I strongly suspect that she is a lesbian based on her appearance. If I was betting I would put up the house limit on that bet.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:53 AM   #105
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The other irony is that Walgreens changed their policy to allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their choice. But that's not a specific victory for Jessie because she is not transgender.

Walgreens is now allowing people who are not like Jessie to use the bathroom of their choice.
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Old 10th February 2018, 01:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
they [she] identify with their birth gender.

I strongly suspect that she is a lesbian based on her appearance. If I was betting I would put up the house limit on that bet.
I watched the video and she says she's female AND identifies as Female.

My "Gaydar" is really bad ... and I agree she's probably gay ... BUT she looks like girl to me.

I'd like to hear the story for that 4" long scar on her neck though
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Old 10th February 2018, 01:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
1. People's looks sometimes parallel their sexuality, but more often do not ....
I don't understand this part.

It sounds like you are saying most people's LOOKS, do not match their "born with" genitalia.
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Old 10th February 2018, 01:52 PM   #108
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I'm surprised that Walgreens actually has two bathrooms. The stores aren't that big and if anything it would be more sensible to have two single-occupancy unisex bathrooms rather than one for each gender.

My argument on this is pretty simple. People should go to the bathroom that suits their appearance. Based on the picture provided in the OP, I'd definitely say that was the women's room in this case.
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Old 10th February 2018, 02:38 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're re-opening a can of worms that will result in the anti-trans crowd on this board to come and spew their vile bigotry over the thread again.

On the article, I think that whoever told her she was too manly nees their eyes checked. Sure, she's not going to win any Miss universe contests, but she's not exactly that blokey either.
What we got though, was a bunch of dudes discussing their bathroom habits and zero women coming in here, slapping down their progressive creds and saying they don't mind at all sharing a bathroom with someone they perceive to be a man.

Why do you suppose that is ?
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:04 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I don't understand this part.

It sounds like you are saying most people's LOOKS, do not match their "born with" genitalia.
Actually I was using "sexuality" to refer to someone's sexual preferences, not to their gender. And by looks I mean clothing, hair style etc: not naked selfies. But of course many trans-individuals want to look like the gender with which they identify, and many achieve this fairly well.

But I am glad you brought this up for another reason. I mis-worded my phrase "but more often do not" even in terms of sexual preference. This wording reads as if people's sexuality most often does not parallel their looks, which is just wrong. Because most people in our society are straight and most people dress as expected for males or females, someone who "looks" like a male is very likely to be attracted to females (and via versa for someone dressed as a female). What I really intended to say was that there are more gay and lesbian people who dress and look like most everyone else (i.e. like straight people) than those who dress and look like their stereotypes. And in my experience in northern California there are a significant number of straight people who dress and look like the gay or lesbian stereotypes.

So calling someone gay or lesbian based on their looks is a method with lots of false positives and false negatives.

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Old 10th February 2018, 03:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Actually I was using "sexuality" to refer to someone's sexual preferences, not to their gender. And by looks I mean clothing, hair style etc: not naked selfies. But of course many trans-individuals want to look like the gender with which they identify, and many achieve this fairly well.

But I am glad you brought this up for another reason. I mis-worded my phrase "but more often do not" even in terms of sexual preference. This wording reads as if people's sexuality most often does not parallel their looks, which is just wrong. Because most people in our society are straight and most people dress as expected for males or females, someone who "looks" like a male is very likely to be attracted to females (and via versa for someone dressed as a female). What I really intended to say was that there are more gay and lesbian people who dress and look like everyone else, like straight people, than those who dress and look like their stereotypes. And in my experience in northern California, there are a significant number of straight people who dress and look like the gay or lesbian stereotypes.

So calling someone gay or lesbian based on their looks is a method with lots of false positives and false negatives.
Ahhh ... thank you ... that makes sense now ... and I tend to agree as well.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:16 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
So calling someone gay or lesbian based on their looks is a method with lots of false positives and false negatives.
I'm not afraid.

I'll bet you a million dollars that Jessie is a lesbian.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:45 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
So calling someone gay or lesbian based on their looks is a method with lots of false positives and false negatives.
How about we stop generalizing about anyone we don't know based purely on their looks. If it was being done because of their skin colour there'd be a word for it...
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:48 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
What we got though, was a bunch of dudes discussing their bathroom habits and zero women coming in here, slapping down their progressive creds and saying they don't mind at all sharing a bathroom with someone they perceive to be a man.

Why do you suppose that is ?
Probably the same reason we don't have a bunch of outraged women in the thread saying that the policy change was a horrible mistake and how dare they be subjected to having to go to the bathroom with anyone that doesn't look feminine enough.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
What we got though, was a bunch of dudes discussing their bathroom habits and zero women coming in here, slapping down their progressive creds and saying they don't mind at all sharing a bathroom with someone they perceive to be a man.

Why do you suppose that is ?



(I do want to add that my previous post in this thread was based on the belief that the woman involved was a transwoman. Like William Parcher, I assumed that the LGBT source got the story correct. As it is, this story really has nothing to do with being trans.)
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm surprised that Walgreens actually has two bathrooms. The stores aren't that big and if anything it would be more sensible to have two single-occupancy unisex bathrooms rather than one for each gender.

My argument on this is pretty simple. People should go to the bathroom that suits their appearance. Based on the picture provided in the OP, I'd definitely say that was the women's room in this case.
My local Walgreen's has two bathrooms, but they're single occupancy, which also pretty much makes for not problem. Enter bathroom of choice, lock door, do what you do, and leave.
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Old 10th February 2018, 04:23 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Probably the same reason we don't have a bunch of outraged women in the thread saying that the policy change was a horrible mistake and how dare they be subjected to having to go to the bathroom with anyone that doesn't look feminine enough.
But just think if there were, then they could get labeled bigots and transphobes for their discomfort at sharing a bathroom with someone who they suspect may have a penis under that skirt.
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Old 10th February 2018, 04:27 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post



(I do want to add that my previous post in this thread was based on the belief that the woman involved was a transwoman. Like William Parcher, I assumed that the LGBT source got the story correct. As it is, this story really has nothing to do with being trans.)
I know it's got nothing to do with being trans, that's why I worded my post the way I did. Apparently Meehan has been taking grief her whole life for her not looking feminine enough.

I wonder who's doing that judging ? It's also somewhat interesting that the gender(s) of the store employees are never mentioned, anywhere so this just may turn out to be a disagreement and issue among women who, as I noted above are curiously absent from this thread.
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Old 10th February 2018, 04:44 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
..... taking grief her whole life ... for her not looking feminine enough.
Im not sure this is political correct, but if she is concerned about that, why not make herself look more feminine? .. Grow her hair longer, wear bigger earrings, some makeup, pink shoes ... padded bra, a skirt perhaps?

Personally she looked feminine enough in the video ... and if she DOSEN'T want to look feminine more power to her! ... everyone has their own style!

BUT she's complaining about it ... my guess is she wants to be mistaken so she can get attention? ... or is that too harsh?

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Old 10th February 2018, 04:55 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Im not sure this is political correct, but if she is concerned about that, why not make herself look more feminine?
Because she is a butch lesbian.


Quote:
BUT she's complaining about it ... my guess is she wants to be mistaken so she can get attention? ... or is that too harsh?
She wouldn't want to be mistaken for a man. That's not really what butch lesbianism is about. Being mistaken for male can be a consequence but it is not a goal.
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