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Old 10th February 2018, 04:57 PM   #121
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Because she is a butch lesbian.



She wouldn't want to be mistaken for a man. That's not really what butch lesbianism is about. Being mistaken for male can be a consequence but it is not a goal.
That actually makes sense ... I never thought about it that way ... my thought is she should not complain ... although this bathroom thing is a bit weird ...
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:05 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Im not sure this is political correct, but if she is concerned about that, why not make herself look more feminine? .. Grow her hair longer, wear bigger earrings, some makeup, pink shoes ... padded bra, a skirt perhaps?

Personally she looked feminine enough in the video ... and if she DOSEN'T want to look feminine more power to her! ... everyone has their own style!

BUT she's complaining about it ... my guess is she wants to be mistaken so she can get attention? ... or is that too harsh?
My guess is that she's achieved the look she wanted to. It's no sceret women police and judge each other rather harshly with women denigrating other women for looking to "mannish" possibly more so than men judge other men for looking to feminine.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:37 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
That actually makes sense ... I never thought about it that way ... my thought is she should not complain ... although this bathroom thing is a bit weird ...
But is not the very thing that is used as the basis for the silly vetting of restroom applicants something that she of all people should complain about? I mean, it seems as if the fear is that a man might get into a room with women, and that it is feared that said man will rampantly expose his naked niblets to some poor shockable female. And there we are suggesting that nothing less than a poor shockable female - possibly even a lesbian- be sent into a men's room which, the fear suggests, might be full of cavorting priapists!

The prudes can't have it both ways. If it's an awful prospect to send a possible man into a womens' room, it cannot be any better to send a possible woman into a mens' room. Even it it doesn't really bother her personally, I think she has every right to complain simply because it's appropriate to complain about stupidity and doubly appropriate to complain about in-your-face sexist stupidity.

e.t.a.on the question of whether she courted misunderstanding. Perhaps - there are plenty of passive-aggressive people just spoiling for a fight - but I'm inclined to think that she looked more female than male anyway, and more inclined to think that the question of running afoul of a bathroom hall monitor probably just never occurred to her.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:40 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
But just think if there were, then they could get labeled bigots and transphobes for their discomfort at sharing a bathroom with someone who they suspect may have a penis under that skirt.
You might want to go and look at the previous threads of this nature. There are few women taking part in them too. The most common type of poster supporting the anti-trans bill were males who were there to defend their wives and daughters from having to be in a stall near one of them perverts.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:40 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
........ I think she has every right to complain simply because it's appropriate to complain about stupidity and doubly appropriate to complain about in-your-face sexist stupidity.
I agree with her right to complain about the washroom issue ... I actually cant fathom there being washroom police in a drug store? ... This is not even monitored at bars and clubs in my area.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:45 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But is not the very thing that is used as the basis for the silly vetting of restroom applicants something that she of all people should complain about? I mean, it seems as if the fear is that a man might get into a room with women, and that it is feared that said man will rampantly expose his naked niblets to some poor shockable female. And there we are suggesting that nothing less than a poor shockable female - possibly even a lesbian- be sent into a men's room which, the fear suggests, might be full of cavorting priapists!

The prudes can't have it both ways. If it's an awful prospect to send a possible man into a womens' room, it cannot be any better to send a possible woman into a mens' room. Even it it doesn't really bother her personally, I think she has every right to complain simply because it's appropriate to complain about stupidity and doubly appropriate to complain about in-your-face sexist stupidity.

e.t.a.on the question of whether she courted misunderstanding. Perhaps - there are plenty of passive-aggressive people just spoiling for a fight - but I'm inclined to think that she looked more female than male anyway, and more inclined to think that the question of running afoul of a bathroom hall monitor probably just never occurred to her.
This form of hypocrisy has been there from the start. The fact is that those that were clamouring for the bills that banned transgender from their gender identity rooms were all for the idea of having transgenders that looked like and identified as women being forced into the men's and transgenders that looked like and identified as males being forced into the woman's, meaning that they would have actually created the very scenario that they were claiming to try and prevent and made it easier for a man to enter the womens because he could have just claimed he was a transgender male and by law had to use that bathroom.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:51 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You might want to go and look at the previous threads of this nature. There are few women taking part in them too. The most common type of poster supporting the anti-trans bill were males who were there to defend their wives and daughters from having to be in a stall near one of them perverts.
Either that or graphically depicting themselves walking around the gym/fitness club locker room with their junk out.
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:13 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I agree with her right to complain about the washroom issue ... I actually cant fathom there being washroom police in a drug store? ... This is not even monitored at bars and clubs in my area.
I'm curious how the interaction happened. It's possible that this particular Walgreens has key bathrooms and you have to ask for the key. It's in Hollywood which can be very seedy and even dangerous.

Jessie may have asked for the key to the women's room.
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:17 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You might want to go and look at the previous threads of this nature. There are few women taking part in them too. The most common type of poster supporting the anti-trans bill were males who were there to defend their wives and daughters from having to be in a stall near one of them perverts.
And if their wives and daughters were complaining about having to be in a stall near one of "them perverts" as you put it, then what ? A woman is apprehensive about sharing a washroom with someone who she percieves to be male because of....say she's been sexually assaulted, should she just suck those fears up and get over it ?
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
And if their wives and daughters were complaining about having to be in a stall near one of "them perverts" as you put it, then what ? A woman is apprehensive about sharing a washroom with someone who she percieves to be male because of....say she's been sexually assaulted, should she just suck those fears up and get over it ?
Transaphobes and homophobes have always just been people that treat trans-people and homosexuals with the same degree of distrusts that nobody baits an eye at women treating men with.

I've always fully admitted I can't really get a grip on this whole debate.

I have zero issue with a transperson sharing a restroom with me, but only because I have zero issue with a cis-gender woman doing. I can't formulate a scenario in which a physical women who identifies as a man would bother me any more or any less.
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:26 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have zero issue with a transperson sharing a restroom with me, but only because I have zero issue with a cis-gender woman doing. I can't formulate a scenario in which a physical women who identifies as a man would bother me any more or any less.
I don't really care who uses what bathroom either, most men don't. I'm sure you've been in a bar or nightclub where there's a line up for the ladies room and some girls just says, screw it" and dashes into the men's room.

Nobody bats an eye, at least I've never seen it.
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Old 10th February 2018, 08:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This form of hypocrisy has been there from the start. The fact is that those that were clamouring for the bills that banned transgender from their gender identity rooms were all for the idea of having transgenders that looked like and identified as women being forced into the men's and transgenders that looked like and identified as males being forced into the woman's, meaning that they would have actually created the very scenario that they were claiming to try and prevent and made it easier for a man to enter the womens because he could have just claimed he was a transgender male and by law had to use that bathroom.
Because it's not really about protecting anyone but all about shutting people you don't approve of out of public spaces.

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Old 10th February 2018, 08:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
And if their wives and daughters were complaining about having to be in a stall near one of "them perverts" as you put it, then what ? A woman is apprehensive about sharing a washroom with someone who she percieves to be male because of....say she's been sexually assaulted, should she just suck those fears up and get over it ?
Is it that a likely scenario? That a woman who was once assaulted by a man would feel threatened by a trans-woman?

Then if there were a person like that, would it be fair to deny trans peope use of public bathrooms over it?
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:28 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I know it's got nothing to do with being trans, that's why I worded my post the way I did. Apparently Meehan has been taking grief her whole life for her not looking feminine enough.

I wonder who's doing that judging ? It's also somewhat interesting that the gender(s) of the store employees are never mentioned, anywhere so this just may turn out to be a disagreement and issue among women who, as I noted above are curiously absent from this thread.
I saw, in a different story, that the employee was a woman. The story did not mention the sex of the manager, who backed up the employee's decision to deny Ms. Meehan the right to use the ladies room.
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:38 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Because most people in our society are straight and most people dress as expected for males or females, someone who "looks" like a male is very likely to be attracted to females (and via versa for someone dressed as a female).

Beware of confirmation bias! In the late 1980s I was a teacher at the Hotel and Restaurant School of Copenhagen. Many of my students, in particular the waiters, were gay, but most of them didn't look, act, talk or dress the way you might expect gay men to do. Ever heard of bears (Wikipedia)?! (Not the kind that defecates in the woods!)
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Old 11th February 2018, 10:23 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is it that a likely scenario? That a woman who was once assaulted by a man would feel threatened by a trans-woman?

Then if there were a person like that, would it be fair to deny trans peope use of public bathrooms over it?
It's something Ive heard twice in the two years I've been bringing issues like this up IRL with people who don't do this kind of thing on the internet.

When I trot out things like "gender is just a social construct, who cares who uses which bathroom" most people look at me like I'm some sort of space alien.

ETA: Nobody has ever expressed a fear about actually being assaulted while in a public bathroom, it's more of an uneasy feeling/distaste kind of thing.

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Old 11th February 2018, 10:26 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As for the question of whether it is appropriate to speculate on whether a person is a lesbian, it seems to me to show how far we still have to go. Some day, not likely in my lifetime, but some day perhaps, we'll be at the stage where being thought a lesbian won't be an insult at all, and a person wrongly thought so can just say "no I'm not" and that will be the end of it.
I think a lot of people are already getting to that point. People have mistaken me for a lesbian fairly regularly over the years. I'm never insulted. I think I get it.

Once I was crossing a busy street wearing a plaid flannel jacket and two girls stopped their car and asked me if I wanted to go to a lesbian rave with them, since the girl in the passenger seat didn't have a date. (This is Pittsburgh, there are a lot of lesbian raves.) They were all dolled up in their rave gear, so I would have looked pretty out of place if the pick-up had succeeded. I politely declined, naturally, but I was actually flattered. There was a bit of spring in my step as I continued on my way.

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Old 11th February 2018, 11:01 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because it's not really about protecting anyone but all about shutting people you don't approve of out of public spaces.
+1
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Old 11th February 2018, 11:52 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Beware of confirmation bias! In the late 1980s I was a teacher at the Hotel and Restaurant School of Copenhagen. Many of my students, in particular the waiters, were gay, but most of them didn't look, act, talk or dress the way you might expect gay men to do. Ever heard of bears (Wikipedia)?! (Not the kind that defecates in the woods!)
You are stating my point, but only better and more concisely than I could. Thanks!

I've been fortunate enough to have lived most of my life in areas that are very comfortable for LGBTQ individuals to lead their lives openly. Sometimes I have been visited by friends and relatives from less open places. They sometimes remark on there being so many LGBTQ people in my neighborhood and this not being true where they live. I tell them they just don't know about it.

BTW I think I understand the term "bears" enough to avoid googling it from work lest there be pictures.

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Old 11th February 2018, 02:11 PM   #140
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There are photos, but it's still Wikipedia. And not to be confused with furries (Wikipedia).
At the Hotel and Restaurant School my own bias was confirmed, at first. It was pretty obvious that the student who not only wore make up and dressed like Boy George but also offered to help me remove the chalk stains from my pants, yes, he was gay! It was only when I got to know them better that I discovered how many of the quite ordinary-looking guys were also homosexual and quite open about it, just not ... flamboyant, I guess.
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Old 11th February 2018, 05:29 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You are stating my point, but only better and more concisely than I could. Thanks!

I've been fortunate enough to have lived most of my life in areas that are very comfortable for LGBTQ individuals to lead their lives openly. Sometimes I have been visited by friends and relatives from less open places. They sometimes remark on there being so many LGBTQ people in my neighborhood and this not being true where they live. I tell them they just don't know about it.

BTW I think I understand the term "bears" enough to avoid googling it from work lest there be pictures.
Quite true, a lot of people think that lesbians are stuck back in the 70's where it was a thing not to dress attractively because makeup and pretty dresses were just to attract a man. Now days there are a lot of woman that are termed as Lipstick Lesbians because they still dress and look feminine and you wouldn't be able to prick them out of a lineup if you tried.

Contrary to that, there are a lot of straight women who dress in a masculine way and have sort haircuts, tattoos, and piercings.

Judging someone based on appearance if foolish to the max, you can't tell who a person is based simply on how they dress and present themselves.
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:00 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The usual kind. Like where I would not unsheathe and handle my genitalia a couple feet away from a strange woman or young girl.
But strange men and young boys are OK, right?
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Old 12th February 2018, 09:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
But strange men and young boys are OK, right?
Socially, pretty much. Many public urinals do not have privacy screens alongside them. At a local watering hole (so to speak) nearby, there is a four or five foot metal trough for a group urinal (an oddity, tbf). Both Board of Health approved with no social uproar. That would not likely fly if women were strolling around. Locker rooms have same sex group showers, as well. For better or worse, I think the social norm in the USA is that visible junk among the same sex is ok, but not when mixing.
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Old 12th February 2018, 11:39 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're re-opening a can of worms that will result in the anti-trans crowd on this board to come and spew their vile bigotry over the thread again.
.
Crowd?
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Old 12th February 2018, 03:31 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Socially, pretty much. Many public urinals do not have privacy screens alongside them. At a local watering hole (so to speak) nearby, there is a four or five foot metal trough for a group urinal (an oddity, tbf). Both Board of Health approved with no social uproar. That would not likely fly if women were strolling around. Locker rooms have same sex group showers, as well. For better or worse, I think the social norm in the USA is that visible junk among the same sex is ok, but not when mixing.
There was a similar trough in my local (in the UK) until it was refitted last year. Such things aren't unusual over here although they are gradually disappearing as places are modernised.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:58 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm curious how the interaction happened. It's possible that this particular Walgreens has key bathrooms and you have to ask for the key. It's in Hollywood which can be very seedy and even dangerous.

Jessie may have asked for the key to the women's room.
That seems like the most likely scenario to me. I haven't been in any Walgreens (or other stores) with employees standing around with nothing better to do than watch which bathroom people use, but I have been in a fair number of stores and gas stations where you have to ask somebody for a key if you want to use the restroom.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:51 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I saw, in a different story, that the employee was a woman. The story did not mention the sex of the manager, who backed up the employee's decision to deny Ms. Meehan the right to use the ladies room.
In the video, Jessie Meehan says that she approached a female member of staff and asked for a key to use the women's toilet. It is then that she was apparently instructed she would have to use the men's.

It is not clear, of course, whether the member of staff was herself being deliberately snide about Meehan's appearance by saying she looked like a man, but it occurs to me that it does not make very much sense to deny anyone the use of the particular toilet.

If she needed a key to get in, then presumably we are not talking about the type of toilet that people can just walk into, and presumably there will not be anyone in the toilet already parading their genitals as happens, apparently, in most public toilets.

In which case, are we not talking about a single occupant lockable stall? How is there ever any need to separate toilets like that?
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:24 AM   #148
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This Walgreens opened about 5 years ago on the corner of Sunset and Vine. It is a huge “flagship” Walgreens. It has beauty consultants, fresh fruit, a deli, sushi chefs, frozen yogurt and juice bar, etc. It is open 24 hours.

It appears they frequently keep the restrooms locked, apparently due to the large homeless population in the area. Customers have to have an employee let them in. Reviews on Yelp over the past year cite a number of complaints about the restrooms. Customers say that they have been told that they cannot use the restrooms or that the restrooms are closed. There are complaints about cleanliness. There are pictures of a stall door that has been kicked in and bent and will not properly close.

Meehan says she stopped at the store on her way to Pride 2017 in Hollywood (not far from the store). She purchased some items. She asked an employee to open the women’s restroom and was told she would have to use the men’s room because she looked like or was dressed like a man. A store manager concurred with the sales associate that it was store policy to restrict access to the gender-specific bathrooms based on staff perceptions of a customer’s appearance. She used a stall in the men’s room and says there were men using the urinals next to her stall.

Meehan told her story to an ACLU booth at Pride. ACLU brought the issue to the attention of Walgreens. Walgreens issued a new policy that “all individuals have a right to use restroom facilities that correspond to the individual's gender identity, regardless of the individual's sex assigned at birth.”
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Old 13th February 2018, 03:35 PM   #149
luchog
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I understand the feeling, but not how it would work...
Are men who really want to harrass women in toilets somehow deterred by the social convention of gendered bathrooms, but not the more important social convention of not committing sexual assault?

Apparently, since the people who have actually been caught committing improprieties or attempted sexual assault in public restrooms have almost exclusively been conservative Republicans, and it's quite clear what their value system condones in both scenarios -- ie. transpeople are all sexual predators, and anyone who is sexually assaulted was "asking for it".

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Socially, pretty much. Many public urinals do not have privacy screens alongside them. At a local watering hole (so to speak) nearby, there is a four or five foot metal trough for a group urinal (an oddity, tbf). Both Board of Health approved with no social uproar. That would not likely fly if women were strolling around. Locker rooms have same sex group showers, as well. For better or worse, I think the social norm in the USA is that visible junk among the same sex is ok, but not when mixing.

I find it profoundly strange and disturbing that the conservative (religious) right is so intensely concerned about transpeople assaulting young women and girls, and have no concern whatsoever about cisgendered men soliciting and assaulting young men and boys. Guess which of the two happens most often. Of course, given the number of Republican politicians and preachers who have been caught soliciting sex in public restroom, or caught sexually molesting young boys, I think the answer to why this is the case should be fairly obvious.
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Last edited by luchog; 13th February 2018 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 04:31 PM   #150
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mispost
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:29 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Why? Has there been a rash of people whipping out their genitalia in bathrooms and flashing them about?
Only if they whip them out too fast and get a friction burn!!!!!
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:01 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the video, Jessie Meehan says that she approached a female member of staff and asked for a key to use the women's toilet. It is then that she was apparently instructed she would have to use the men's.

It is not clear, of course, whether the member of staff was herself being deliberately snide about Meehan's appearance by saying she looked like a man, but it occurs to me that it does not make very much sense to deny anyone the use of the particular toilet.

If she needed a key to get in, then presumably we are not talking about the type of toilet that people can just walk into, and presumably there will not be anyone in the toilet already parading their genitals as happens, apparently, in most public toilets.

In which case, are we not talking about a single occupant lockable stall? How is there ever any need to separate toilets like that?
Yeah, that's kind of weird. If you're the only one in there, who could you offend or freak out?
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:24 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the video, Jessie Meehan says that she approached a female member of staff and asked for a key to use the women's toilet. It is then that she was apparently instructed she would have to use the men's.

It is not clear, of course, whether the member of staff was herself being deliberately snide about Meehan's appearance by saying she looked like a man, but it occurs to me that it does not make very much sense to deny anyone the use of the particular toilet.

If she needed a key to get in, then presumably we are not talking about the type of toilet that people can just walk into, and presumably there will not be anyone in the toilet already parading their genitals as happens, apparently, in most public toilets.

In which case, are we not talking about a single occupant lockable stall? How is there ever any need to separate toilets like that?
According to her, from the OP link:

Originally Posted by Jessie Meehan
“I had to go so I didn’t put up much of a fight and used the stall while the men used the urinals next to me,” she wrote. “This in itself was very humiliating for me and I felt extremely uncomfortable.”
Does seem really inconsistent.
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