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3rd June 2020, 04:06 PM | #441 |
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Let me try to lead you through this...you said, "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to." YOUR SCENARIO, NOT MINE.
I pointed out that 50' is not much of a distance for a running man and could be covered in less than 3 seconds. I also pointed out in another post that most people are lucky to get off 1 aimed shot per second. I didn't point out the (to me at least) obvious first second or two that you need to draw your gun and belabor the point that it would then take another second to fire an aimed round. I did point out that even trained police officers often end up shooting hands and arms due to the fact that even though they are trained it is instinctive to humans to focus on the threat rather than their training. Shooting people in the legs is, in a word, stupid. It's another level of training likely to be forgotten in a stressful moment while they're in a 3 second life or death situation. Could you do it? |
3rd June 2020, 04:11 PM | #442 |
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Um no. Plainclothes police carry their guns in concealed holsters, not purses.
Carrying a weapon in a purse, even off duty, is not recommended for obvious reasons. You are trying to come up with a reason against my opinion about less lethal first shooting. We are talking about on duty cops who are overwhelmingly those officers confronted with situations like these, not off duty or dept store security guards. And I suggest you drop the aggressive attitude you've had since first addressing me. I don't even remember engaging with you before. |
3rd June 2020, 04:12 PM | #443 |
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I'll give my honestly honest, super no BS opinion.
It was a Biden gaff, but it was nowhere near as dumb as saying people should drink bleach. I mean thats just... yikes. Drink something that will 100% kill you? OK. Shooting to wound is something that should be considered in rare instances. A regular duty cop alone draws his weapon to respond to a threat expecting him to think through shooting to wound or not when he has a split second to make a life or death decision is not realistic or fair. OTOH there are some rare cases where I think shooting to wound is appropriate, and apparently some foreign police forces do as well. A situation where things are relatively contained, you have SWAT officers with long guns, but they can't get close enough to use less than lethal force. Shooting to wound could be appropriate. Especially if you had a sniper on a building. A miss would just hit the area nearby. If the situation gets worse, well you have backup officers to shoot to kill just in case. But that doesn't seem to be what Biden meant, without some pretty creative interpretation. |
3rd June 2020, 04:13 PM | #444 |
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3rd June 2020, 04:15 PM | #445 |
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The point is that any gunshot can be lethal, even a shot to a leg that cuts an artery. It can also miss and strike a bystander. And cops aren't Wyatt Earp. Shooting at a moving target's leg doesn't guarantee that's what will be hit. Do we want that to be another defense to a police killing? "Gee, I was only trying hit his shin. Whoops!" Cops aren't supposed to shoot at all unless lethal force is justified. Never forget that cops are also armed with batons, pepper spray and often tasers. If we can expect a cop to successfully shoot for a leg, maybe we should also expect him to be able to wield a two-foot steel baton effectively.
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3rd June 2020, 04:22 PM | #446 |
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Why you put forth a scenario where I would have trouble getting a gun out in time is confusing. Neither Biden nor I was talking about civilians; were were talking about police officers.
You are presenting individual scenarios where an officer may not have time to assess the threat to determine if lethal or non-lethal force should be used. No one is suggesting there are not such situations. All I've said is that, depending on what the officer determines at the time, non-lethal should be use first. You are trying to make a one size fits all argument. |
3rd June 2020, 04:24 PM | #447 |
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And yet they do. They've argued "justified" down to "feeling a little threatened," and from there to "technically this guy could have been a threat if he'd been armed and high on pcp and not a ten year old black kid playing pokemon go, our bad lol."
I think "you don't get to kill people anymore" is the minimum first step towards making this better. |
3rd June 2020, 04:26 PM | #448 |
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3rd June 2020, 04:27 PM | #449 |
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3rd June 2020, 04:29 PM | #450 |
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...which she made in a debate over Biden's comments referencing police brutality, just like I said and continue to say.
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I mean, like, make up your mind already. |
3rd June 2020, 04:29 PM | #451 |
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Plainclothes police carry their weapons where they can, female officers wearing shorts and a modest top utilize purses in real life both on and off duty.
I'm all for less than lethal encounters based on common sense and real life results. Shooting a knife-wielding man charging at me or you with a aimed shot in the legs within 3 seconds doesn't cut it. Utilize less-than-lethal technology - bag launcher, taser or pepper spray if possible. If you don't like the responses you get try something different. Try thinking the scenario through first before trying to post and score some sort of internet points. I reserve the right to comment on nonsense when I see it whether it's in politics or ct's. |
3rd June 2020, 04:30 PM | #452 |
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Of course any shot can be lethal. That shouldn't even need to be said.
As I said, it should be up to the officer at the time to determine the threat level and his/her response. If they don't think they can stop the threat by shooting at the legs, then they don't shoot at the legs. Shooting to kill has also ended up with innocent bystanders being killed. |
3rd June 2020, 04:38 PM | #453 |
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3rd June 2020, 04:52 PM | #454 |
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In your world is some guy holding a knife 50' from you cause for concern or is it something you regularly encounter everywhere you go? What if you were asked to help get a knife away from a "crazy dude threatening to kill people" outside your favorite cafe or coffeeshop? Imagine responding as a police officer - do you go rushing in or stay back? If you stop much beyond 50 feet are you going to be able to try to calmly talk to the person or will you have to yell to be heard above traffic or other noise and risk agitating this person you've never met before? If you pull your gun you're going to be accused of escalating the situation, if you leave it secured and try to calm the situation you may have to react to an attacking man very quickly. If you do have to shoot do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at a moving target in the legs without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person?
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3rd June 2020, 04:55 PM | #455 |
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3rd June 2020, 05:01 PM | #456 |
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Does he even have a knife? Are you even looking at the right guy? Why does everything immediately come to a life or death situation?
Cops aren't even in the top ten most dangerous professions. When was the last time you passed a roofer and thanked him for his service? He's way more likely to die from inattention on the job. [ETA] You know what would be likely to spook someone more than anything? Someone pointing a gun and screaming at them. |
3rd June 2020, 05:27 PM | #457 |
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When Trump is being lambasted all over for being divisive and pro-riot, that sure is the proper time to project that onto Biden. Trump said to shoot citizens, threatened to use the military to occupy American cities, flat out told the police to be as rough as they wanted with suspects, and his supporters are saying that Biden telling cops not to kill people as a first resort is what's "divisive and pro-riot." That's some weapons grade gas-lighting there!
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3rd June 2020, 05:55 PM | #458 |
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3rd June 2020, 05:58 PM | #459 |
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I'd like to continue on with the conditions first posted by Stacyhs as it was originally her scenario, not mine and I don't want to be accused of taking it out of context. She posted, "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to."
Does he have a knife - Yes, Stacy didn't say possibly or call it a pillow. Is it the right guy - Yes, the guy with the knife who is running at you. Why is everything immediately a life or death situation - I never stated everything was but I would characterize a 3 second encounter with a knife-wielding man as IDLH, would you? I have thanked roofers and been thanked for roofing, do I get bonus points? I agree that yelling at someone with a gun aimed at them could be stressful and could spook them but I didn't recommend or require it. I've answered your questions, could you address mine below? In your world is some guy holding a knife 50' from you cause for concern or is it something you regularly encounter everywhere you go? What if you were asked to help get a knife away from a "crazy dude threatening to kill people" outside your favorite cafe or coffeeshop? Imagine responding as a police officer - do you go rushing in or stay back? If you stop much beyond 50 feet are you going to be able to try to calmly talk to the person or will you have to yell to be heard above traffic or other noise and risk agitating this person you've never met before? If you pull your gun you're going to be accused of escalating the situation, if you leave it secured and try to calm the situation you may have to react to an attacking man very quickly. If you do have to shoot do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at a moving target in the legs without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person? |
3rd June 2020, 06:00 PM | #460 |
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3rd June 2020, 06:03 PM | #461 |
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3rd June 2020, 06:08 PM | #462 |
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3rd June 2020, 06:16 PM | #463 |
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In the same spirit with which you answered mine, sure.
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3rd June 2020, 07:58 PM | #464 |
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I'm not advocating that anyone, police included, shoot people 50' away if they're not an immediate threat but that's not Stacyhs's scenario. Stacyhs's scenario has them running towards you with a knife. Again, NOT MY SCENARIO, no matter how well the situation is handled it ends with a knife-wielding man running at you full speed from 50' away just as Stacyhs has set the scene.
Brushing all the strawmen and imaginary baggage aside, given only the scenario above, do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at the legs of a moving target without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person? |
3rd June 2020, 08:10 PM | #465 |
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3rd June 2020, 09:25 PM | #466 |
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...lies/smile.gif I'll try again. I'm not advocating that anyone, police included, shoot people 50' away if they're not an immediate threat. We are in perfect agreement about this point, two peas in a pod, simpatico. But that's not Stacyhs's scenario. Stacyhs's scenario has them running towards you with a knife. Again, NOT MY SCENARIO, no matter how well (or badly) the situation is handled it ends with a knife-wielding man running at you full speed from 50' away just as Stacyhs has set the scene. If you don't want to utilize Stacyhs's scenario, that's ok with me but don't pretend that isn't what we've been talking about as it directly relates to Biden's comments and Stacyhs's quoted post. Heap as much imaginary baggage as you need into the scene, good or bad. Imagine yourself as the worst possible candidate or the best because either way I'd like an honest answer. Lay out any scenario (even multiples if it helps you get your point across) you want, in as much detail as you're comfortable sharing as long as the actions you take eventually lead to a knife-wielding man charging you from 50' away. After contemplation, do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at the legs of a moving target without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person? Is it presidential or naive? Stupid or something to be trained on by every police officer in the country? |
4th June 2020, 04:43 AM | #467 |
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4th June 2020, 06:38 AM | #468 |
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It is DARVO. Same as with infamous "Obama is narcist". This was in reaction to claim "Trump is narcist". And nothing more.
Any factualness in "Obama is narcist" does not matter. Only thing that matters is accusing your opponent of same thing regardless of if this makes any sense at all. And I am quite sure people peddling that "Obama is narcist" nonsense know very well they are lying and making up things. Amateur propagandists. My general policy about posts/tweets/texts/articles/whatever by republicans is already for long time same as for crazies, cranks, neo-nazis, commies, religious nutjobs and other very fine people. Assume it is all lies unless proven otherwise (though I don't hold breath on that "unless"). This ideology is already irreversibly rotten to the core and it is inevitable Americans will sooner or latter need to deal with it like Americans dealt with their spiritual predecessors in first civil war or humanity dealt with their spiritual brothers in second world war - hopefully with same outcome. |
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4th June 2020, 07:18 AM | #469 |
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4th June 2020, 08:04 AM | #470 |
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Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's. |
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4th June 2020, 08:17 AM | #471 |
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4th June 2020, 08:34 AM | #472 |
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4th June 2020, 10:15 AM | #473 |
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Yeah, but you also "wondered" why Michelle Obama wasn't wearing a mask 2 years before Covid-19 existed. Your threshold for finding if something is bad that the Obamas did (or Biden, or Clinton, or anyone else with "D" after their name) is apparently far, far lower than what it takes for you to find fault with Trump.
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4th June 2020, 10:20 AM | #474 |
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4th June 2020, 10:41 AM | #475 |
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4th June 2020, 11:11 AM | #476 |
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4th June 2020, 11:22 AM | #477 |
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4th June 2020, 11:24 AM | #478 |
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Ok. It must be my google-fu, but I can't find you pointing out that Trump didn't deserve it when he was making headlines claiming that he had been nominated and did deserve it.
Like I said, funny how that works. |
4th June 2020, 11:25 AM | #479 |
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And yet you routinely defend a "president" who, when a veteran gave his own purple heart to Trump, Trump responded, "I always wanted to get the Purple Heart. This was much easier". You know, it's almost as though your judgment is based entirely on partisanship without any regard whatsoever to actual merit. But you would never stoop to that level, now would you? |
4th June 2020, 11:26 AM | #480 |
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