IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th April 2019, 11:32 AM   #121
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Claim: Trump is especially catastrophic.

Counter-Claim: Trump is no more catastrophic than other politicians.

Case Study: Disaster preparedness and response, specifically hurricanes.


---

If Trump isn't unique in this regard, why even bother to complain?
That's just silly. First of all, I don't recall ever saying that Trump was "unique" in his greater likelihood of screwing up in catastrophic way. What I said was catastrophic results are probabilistically much more likely with incompetence such as Trump's--it's happened before with GWB, as I acknowledged days ago. If you disagree and continue to think I claimed "uniqueness" I invite you to post a link where I said such a thing.


Even so: "Why even to bother to complain"? Seriously???? You don't have to be unique in your incompetence and corruption to be worth complaining about, and I can't believe I have to explain that to an adult (assuming you are an adult). If other presidents suck as bad as Trump that does not mean we shouldn't complain about Trump sucking. How can you not realize this???

According to your "logic" once a president sets the bar so low, no subsequent president is worth complaining about until he "uniquely" lowers the bar EVEN MORE. If a president, for example, embezzles $1,000,000 from the treasury, we can't complain when future presidents steal <=$1,000,000 because he's not "unique".

But sure, I'm going to tell my friend that he's not the only one suffering from cancer and therefore he has no right to complain. GTF outta here with that "argument".

For what it's worth, I like to call this behavior TIS: Trump Infatuation Syndrome.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 11:36 AM   #122
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The claim was that Trump was uniquely unprepared to deal with catastrophes. That wasn't my claim. I've merely pointed out that that claim hasn't been backed up.


You're absolutely right--it WASN'T your claim.

It was your STRAW MAN.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 11:41 AM   #123
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
On further review I see that others DID claim uniqueness for Trump, but seeing as how Ziggurat has attributed that claim to me, specifically:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So when you look for a failed response to a hurricane, instead of pointing to Trump, you point to GWB. And that's supposed to demonstrate that Trump is uniquely unprepared for catastrophes?

Do you not understand what you just did there?



You're asking if *I* am playing dumb, after you just scored a goal against yourself?

Oh, of course: you aren't playing.
I stand by my straw man claim.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 12:39 PM   #124
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
On further review I see that others DID claim uniqueness for Trump, but seeing as how Ziggurat has attributed that claim to me, specifically:



I stand by my straw man claim.
I think you need to step away from this thread for a bit. You seem to be getting understandably upset by what is going on here.

I'm reading posts by the Trump apologists that imply that the disaster on Puerto Rico wouldn't have been as bad if the people had just had some home insurance and bottled water. Well, Trump apologists: **** you. I really hope that one day you find yourself in the situation of seeing your house a pile of rubble with all the bottled water underneath it, with no prospect of a roof overhead for tonight because there are no roofs anywhere within twenty miles, with no prospect of help from the "local government" because all their buildings are just as flat as yours and their emergency response vehicles are gone. Not that there's any way for them to find out your predicament because all communications are dead. And your insurance claim will not get processed for many months because it's three millionth in the queue.

You Trumpistas should be ashamed at the way your government failed your fellow citizens on Puerto Rico. You should be humiliated that Oxfam felt the need to step in. The first duty of the US government is surely to protect its citizens. It failed on Puerto Rico and Trump, as the chief of the executive bears ultimate responsibility.

Time to step away from the thread a bit.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:00 PM   #125
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think you need to step away from this thread for a bit. You seem to be getting understandably upset by what is going on here.
Actually, I'm perfectly fine. I'm just tired of the BS and decided the BS needed to be pointed out somewhat forcefully.

I do sincerely appreciate the thought, however, but it's long past the time to pretend Trump apologists' have an argument worth considering. Admittedly, perhaps some of them do. The one I was responding to was not one of them (We shouldn't complain about Trump sucking because other presidents have sucked...hurr durr). That argument absolutely deserves the scorn I gave it, and theprestige should be embarrassed that he even thought it was worth posting.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:05 PM   #126
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think you need to step away from this thread for a bit. You seem to be getting understandably upset by what is going on here.

I'm reading posts by the Trump apologists that imply that the disaster on Puerto Rico wouldn't have been as bad if the people had just had some home insurance and bottled water. Well, Trump apologists: **** you. I really hope that one day you find yourself in the situation of seeing your house a pile of rubble with all the bottled water underneath it, with no prospect of a roof overhead for tonight because there are no roofs anywhere within twenty miles, with no prospect of help from the "local government" because all their buildings are just as flat as yours and their emergency response vehicles are gone. Not that there's any way for them to find out your predicament because all communications are dead. And your insurance claim will not get processed for many months because it's three millionth in the queue.

You Trumpistas should be ashamed at the way your government failed your fellow citizens on Puerto Rico. You should be humiliated that Oxfam felt the need to step in. The first duty of the US government is surely to protect its citizens. It failed on Puerto Rico and Trump, as the chief of the executive bears ultimate responsibility.

Time to step away from the thread a bit.
Bottled water always helps in an emergency because, get this, people need water. That's one of the reasons that the government delivers bottled water in an emergency, and one of the reasons it's always near the top of the list of disaster preparedness lists. So yeah, it DOES help to have bottled water in an emergency. A lot. Especially if emergency response vehicles can't reach you.

As for insurance, that's actually an interesting story. First, note that flood insurance doesn't cover wind damage. Ordinary home owner's insurance may do that, and that's private. Not everybody buys flood insurance. The rates can be quite high since you may be at high risk, which is why the government created the National Flood Insurance program. This is a government-run program, and payouts from the program are included in disaster spending totals referred to earlier.

Now let's look at Puerto Rico specifically.
https://riskcenter.wharton.upenn.edu...uerto-Rico.pdf
There were only something like 4,200 National Flood Insurance policies for ALL of Puerto Rico. So payouts from flood insurance are going to be minimal, and that's going to skew the totals. But that's not the whole story. Puerto Rico is actually unusual in that unlike the rest of the US, the flood insurance market is dominated by private insurers, NOT by the National Flood Insurance Program. So there's another 40,000 odd privately insured flood insurance policies, and payouts from them will not be counted in the federal disaster relief totals. Why are there so many more private insurance policies in Puerto Rico? Because they're cheaper than the National Flood Insurance policies, because most house construction in Puerto Rico is concrete rather than wood framing, making structures much more flood resistant than most US construction. But even including these numbers, the total number of people with flood insurance is quite low. That's not Trump's fault. Wind damage (such as a roof being blown off) may be covered by other home owners policies, and I don't have numbers on that. But damned straight insurance matters in the aftermath of a disaster. If you've got insurance, that helps A LOT. If you don't have insurance, you may be able to get a government loan to rebuild, but loans have to be repaid. You can get a FEMA grant to help you, but those are quite limited by law, not executive decision, and nothing close to a substitute for insurance.

For some reason, the indisputable fact that having bottled water and insurance helps in a disaster causes consternation in you. You haven't disputed this. Instead, you've tried to create a straw man that I'm saying those are the only things that you need. But I never, ever made any such claim. Assuming you survive the actual hurricane (and the government can't do much about that), bottled water is the number one thing that will help most people survive the aftermath. That doesn't mean that other emergency services aren't important. That doesn't mean bottled water will restore things to normal, or that returning to normal isn't important. I haven't argued any of those things.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:07 PM   #127
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
And I will acknowledge my cancer reference in the post at the top of the page wasn't really analogous or appropriate, but I do stand by everything else I posted.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:10 PM   #128
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

For some reason, the indisputable fact that having bottled water and insurance helps in a disaster causes consternation in you. You haven't disputed this. Instead, you've tried to create a straw man that I'm saying those are the only things that you need. But I never, ever made any such claim. Assuming you survive the actual hurricane (and the government can't do much about that), bottled water is the number one thing that will help most people survive the aftermath. That doesn't mean that other emergency services aren't important. That doesn't mean bottled water will restore things to normal, or that returning to normal isn't important. I haven't argued any of those things.
Well, when the actual topic is "Federal" aid, bringing up bottled water, insurance, self prep, and local aid aren't really relevant.

It's a federal aid thread, not a pamphlet on how to prep for and survive a disaster.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:37 PM   #129
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Well, when the actual topic is "Federal" aid, bringing up bottled water, insurance, self prep, and local aid aren't really relevant.

It's a federal aid thread, not a pamphlet on how to prep for and survive a disaster.
I've pointed this out already: the mods chose the title, not the people actually engaged in the debate. It isn't an authoritative title.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 03:21 PM   #130
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've pointed this out already: the mods chose the title, not the people actually engaged in the debate. It isn't an authoritative title.
The thread title was chosen because that was the debate. Find me a reference to bottled water, insurance, self prep, and local aid before you irrelevantly brought it up.

Bringing up a topic does not imply it's relevant to the debate. Sometimes it's a deflection.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #131
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Unless, of course, your interest in the debate truly was, for some reason, disaster preparedness.

I see no evidence of that.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 04:13 PM   #132
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are construction engineers making the claim that Trump failed?



No, he probably didn't. But that's fairly typical of government. It rarely works as well in practice as it could in principle. So how is Trump a unique risk in this regard? It's not enough that he didn't do as well as he could have.



I don't know. It depends a lot on the details of what exactly broke, and I don't see anyone presenting a case on that basis. The argument from incredulity doesn't suffice to convince me they could. Maybe they could, but I don't accept that as a given.
Hmmm.....Interesting line of argument. The government always screws things up, so of course they would screw up this, too?


Well, whatever. To my way of thinking, the military ought to be capable of moving lots of heavy stuff into place in a very short time, and a good civilian administrator ought to be capable of finding out which heavy stuff to move in order to get things going. All it takes, then, is a guy who is in charge of both to make it happen, and a little bit of cooperation from a couple of guys named Ryan and McConnell just in case some checks need to be signed.

I'm not even sure that's necessary. I read somewhere that the military can do construction and can pull the money from somewhere else to do it if the president declares a national emergency. Maybe Trump isn't aware of that law.


I think it could have happened faster, and if it had happened faster, fewer people would have died.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 09:23 PM   #133
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Whether Trump is unique is the entire basis for this thread.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Claim: Trump is especially catastrophic.

Counter-Claim: Trump is no more catastrophic than other politicians.

Case Study: Disaster preparedness and response, specifically hurricanes.


---

If Trump isn't unique in this regard, why even bother to complain?
Whoa! Stand back fellow members. Zig and theprestige are moving some goalposts!

When did the question turn to "unique". You are both rather literate, so I know you know what "unique" means.

Grossly Incompetent doesn't mean unique.
Bilious Pimp doesn't mean unique.
Racist Toad doesn't mean unique.
Autocratic Nepotist doesn't mean unique.
Vindictive Man-child doesn't mean unique.

(I'm limiting the list to avoid terms that we can't all agree on. )
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 11:12 PM   #134
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hmmm.....Interesting line of argument. The government always screws things up, so of course they would screw up this, too.
That isn’t at all what I said. I said the government rarely operated optimally. That’s true of large organizations in general.

And get specific about what should have been done. It doesn’t suffice to say that you think something should have been possible. What was needed to turn the power back on? Was it rate limited by transportation, or some other factor? And if it was some other factor, was it even possible for the military to speed it up? And if so, by how much?

Do you know any of this? Or do you just assume because Orange Man Bad?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 11:16 PM   #135
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Whoa! Stand back fellow members. Zig and theprestige are moving some goalposts!

When did the question turn to "unique". You are both rather literate, so I know you know what "unique" means.

Grossly Incompetent doesn't mean unique.
Bilious Pimp doesn't mean unique.
Racist Toad doesn't mean unique.
Autocratic Nepotist doesn't mean unique.
Vindictive Man-child doesn't mean unique.

(I'm limiting the list to avoid terms that we can't all agree on. )
Trump is definitely unique in some ways. But not all ways are relevant here. For this discussion, the question is whether he poses a unique threat because of an inability to respond to a catastrophe. And that hasn’t been remotely demonstrated. His unique penchant for insulting his opponents, for example, doesn’t matter for that question.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 05:23 AM   #136
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 34,263
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For this discussion, the question is whether he poses a unique threat because of an inability to respond to a catastrophe.
Are you including not only the disasters that he inadequately responds to, but also those disasters he creates through his white nationalist policies? Or is that a different kind of disaster?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 06:11 AM   #137
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t at all what I said. I said the government rarely operated optimally. That’s true of large organizations in general.

Hmmm...."Always screws up" versus "rarely operates optimally". Deciphering the difference between the two seems like an extremely productive activity. Then, once we establish the difference, we could try and debate whether the two are kind of the same, or very much the same, or "not at all" the same. That could entertain us for weeks, no doubt, but I'll leave it to others to take up the challenge.



Quote:
And get specific about what should have been done.
I suppose I can't. I don't know about military logistics. I don't know how they manage to build bridges so tanks can cross them. I don't know how they move so many men so fast. I don't know how they respond to novel situations. I don't know how they coordinate civilian assistance for the non-military actions they participate in.

And yet, despite the fact that I don't know how any of that stuff works in detail, I have confidence in saying that the French army did it very badly in 1940. I can't get more specific than that, but I'm sure they screwed up in a big way.


Likewise, I don't know much about getting water and electricity to a hospital. I know if involves plugging in parts, and replacing some that may have been damaged. I know that it might involve tracing a line, and perhaps moving one or more large trees that might have fallen on it, or putting up a tall pole and stringing a new wire, but I know that if you have heavy equipment in place, and you don't have to deal with all the paperwork that is usually required as part of normal activity, you can get it done.


It didn't get done in a timely manner. People died. I blame the guy in charge.


It was interesting searching through the web for some discussion of these issues. What I found was a lot of government agencies talking about what they did. As it turns out, they all did great, but they could have done better if they had more funding. One organization that discussed it was the Army Corps of Engineers. The general in charge talked about getting the call 8 days after the storm. In my opinion, he should have gotten the call 1 day after the storm. But....the White House phone system isn't like a regular phone system. Since I can't describe the specific steps necessary to make a phone call from the White House, I guess we can't conclude that Trump could have notified them to start moving the day after the storm. Maybe it was impossible.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 06:46 AM   #138
applecorped
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
This is at least a step up from what Trump serves for lunch to visiting sports teams


Not by much though
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 03:41 PM   #139
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This is at least a step up from what Trump serves for lunch to visiting sports teams


Not by much though
Yeah, because serving a fast food hamberder meal to a football team at the White House is really no different in significance from a failure to respond to a disaster that killed thousands of Latinos. In fact, I struggle to find any meaningful distinction between them at all.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 05:27 PM   #140
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,828
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t at all what I said. I said the government rarely operated optimally. That’s true of large organizations in general.

And get specific about what should have been done. It doesn’t suffice to say that you think something should have been possible. What was needed to turn the power back on? Was it rate limited by transportation, or some other factor? And if it was some other factor, was it even possible for the military to speed it up? And if so, by how much?

Do you know any of this? Or do you just assume because Orange Man Bad?
If one can't explain large scale military operations in enough detail for Zig, he gets to hand wave away any complaints about Trump. Likewise, unless you were literally there, on the ground, and can explain to Zig in enough detail everything that needed done and how it was done and what could have been done to improve that process, then Zig revokes your right to complain about Dear Leader.

Really, Zig? 'Where you there?' mixed with irreducible complexity? This is really your best argument to defend Orange Man Bad?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2019, 10:28 PM   #141
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suppose I can't. I don't know about military logistics.
It's not just about military logistics. It's also about power grid infrastructure. What was broken? What's required to fix it? How long does that take? Some of the equipment in a power grid is very expensive, very specialized, and doesn't always have spares available. It can take a long time to repair some of that stuff even under ideal conditions. Without a clue about what broke and what it takes to fix it, then you really can't say how long any of it should have taken.

Quote:
It was interesting searching through the web for some discussion of these issues. What I found was a lot of government agencies talking about what they did. As it turns out, they all did great, but they could have done better if they had more funding.
Every government agency can always do better with more funding. You will never find one that claims otherwise.

Quote:
One organization that discussed it was the Army Corps of Engineers. The general in charge talked about getting the call 8 days after the storm. In my opinion, he should have gotten the call 1 day after the storm.
Finally, a concrete criticism. I can accept that one.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 01:47 AM   #142
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Quote:
FEMA admits it’s ‘short a few thousand employees’ as hurricane season begins
https://thinkprogress.org/fema-short...74Ll4_gsbeXtx4



...Gosh, who could have ever predicted that an incompetent president might leave federal agencies (disaster or otherwise) understaffed/underfunded?

Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 08:00 PM   #143
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Hey, I've tried telling you all this repeatedly, but some of you just refuse to listen. Just what the hell does it take for you to finally pay attention?

Quote:
Team Trump Admits Holding Back Billions for Puerto Rico Disaster Recovery


Trump Team Told Nine States and the Virgin Islands How to Get Money, But Not Puerto Rico




Trump administration officials have admitted that last summer they knowingly withheld billions of dollars Congress appropriated to help Puerto Rico recover from Hurricane Maria. House Democrats say withholding the relief money violates the law.

Federal law requires that our government help Americans hit by natural disasters. But two Housing and Urban Development officials acknowledged at a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing on Oct. 17 that HUD blocked the Puerto Rico relief funds.

The HUD delay meant the island missed a deadline to apply for billions of dollars in disaster relief funds, raising doubts about when, if ever, the money will flow to the island devastated in September 2017 by a Category 5 hurricane.

https://www.dcreport.org/2019/10/24/...ster-recovery/


....Go ahead. Let's start hearing the usual excuses from the usual suspects.....
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2019, 09:27 AM   #144
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,838
Think of the children. Especially of all those corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, and contractors who could have skimmed millions off additional aid.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2020, 04:14 PM   #145
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
I think it may be time to revisit this exchange:



Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, this seems to be a vague concern, rather than a specific one. You're not pointing to any one unfilled or badly-filled position and saying, "this poses a special risk to the nation". You're saying simply that Trump could be doing it horribly wrong, but we won't find out until it actually happens. Whatever "it" is. Which we also won't know until "it" actually happens.

Meanwhile, every time "it" has happened so far, catastrophe has not emerged.



Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
From slate.com:



..doesn't instill confidence in me.

From: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...tually-do.html



It's vague only due to the fact that I'm not a prophet able to predict the next crisis, which could be a virus outbreak, a hurricane/earthquake/tornado outbreak, a financial crisis et cetera. I can't point to a badly-filled position??

Betsy DeVos:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-of-education/

Andrew Wheeler, head of EPA:



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-...t-resignation/

..for a couple of specific examples. There are many positions filled by people in Trump's administration with an obvious antithesis to the very position being filled, such as Rick Perry as head of the dept he thinks shouldn't even exist. And I feel sure you are aware of these issues, what made you need to ask me for them? Just curious.

You seem to complain once more that I can't tell you what "it" is. Again, I am not a prophet, nor do I claim to be. But crises do happen; there will be another crisis. The fact that I can't predict one does not imply there will never be one, as I am sure you are aware. I can't tell you what type or when it will be; it's well within the realm of possibility that something like the hurricanes of 2017 will be the worst crisis we face under Trump's administration; but there is always potential for a crisis, and under a chaotic Trump admin I think we are woefully underprepared.



I took "existential" to mean "threatening the very existence of the country". That's rather extreme, and I think we both agree that "catastrophe" does not imply that specific definition of "existential". You can surely have a catastrophe that does not threaten our existence (such as 9/11). That's all I intended with that comment.



Sorry, maybe I haven't been clear: I am not as much concerned with a catastrophe being caused by the Trump admin as I am with an external catastrophe overwhelming the Trump admin. For example, putting Herman Cain (who has no real economic experience) on the Federal Reserve Board is a risk because the lack of experience may worsen a potential future recession. Putting a fossil fuel proponent in charge of the EPA has the potential to worsen our environment (more lax air quality/water quality regulations, for example) as well as reverse any steps we've taken to mitigate climate change (which I have no idea if you accept as real or not).



Again, many of the assigned positions in the Trump admin have already been controversial due to either lack of experience or antithetical views the holder has with the mission of the position. It seems rather uniform throughout the admin. Why you keep demanding I give you a specific example is beyond me; again, I am not a prophet, I merely see chaos and confusion in the Trump admin, which generally implies inadequate response to a crisis. Any crisis.



Again, what did he do in that position that really qualified him? Can you tell me, specifically, what his obligations were in that position and how he handled them in a way that would require special qualifications? According to the first link in this post, it seems as though it was more like a "ceremonial" position.



And again, I've balked at many of your requests for specifics because I interpret that as you expecting me to first predict the next catastrophe, followed by an analysis of the head of the relevant position in Trump's admin.



Sure. I already mentioned (before I even read this far) that the secretary is Rick Perry. I'll admit that I can't go into detail concerning his qualifications, but I well remember that of the three agencies Perry thought should be eliminated, the DOE was the one he couldn't even remember. I also recall when he was first appointed, he had no idea that the DOE had responsibility for nuclear weapons. None of these facts encourage my opinion of his competency for this position.



Haven't I already covered this at this point?

I continue to think that theprestige's insistence that I be able to specifically pinpoint the nature of a catastrophe that results due to Trump's incompetence was an absurd demand.

On the other hand, I think I may soon be prepared to finally deliver that answer.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2020, 07:26 PM   #146
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Dear Zig/Dear theprestige,


With US coronavirus deaths over 100,000 (the most of any country throughout the world), are either of you now prepared to acknowledge how wrong you were to simply scoff at my concerns over the competence of the Trump administration in this thread? Even if, perhaps, you think Trump hasn't had any major blunders, there absolutely is cause for concern?

And while I continue to maintain that I am not a prophet, I must admit I am amused by the fact that "virus outbreak" just happened to be first on my list of concerns:

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's vague only due to the fact that I'm not a prophet able to predict the next crisis, which could be a virus outbreak, a hurricane/earthquake/tornado outbreak, a financial crisis et cetera.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2020, 08:13 PM   #147
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Dear Zig/Dear theprestige,


With US coronavirus deaths over 100,000 (the most of any country throughout the world), are either of you now prepared to acknowledge how wrong you were to simply scoff at my concerns over the competence of the Trump administration in this thread?
I don't think that's an accurate characterization of what I did. I'm concerned about the competence of every presidential administration. I've never seen an administration that was as competent as I would like. So it isn't the fact that you have concerns which I disagreed with.

But I'm not sure why you think the coronavirus death toll is particularly relevant to your claim. The worst blunders responsible for the most deaths have happened at the state and local level, such as the order to force nursing homes to accept Covid-19 positive patients into their facilities.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2020, 11:32 PM   #148
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's an accurate characterization of what I did. I'm concerned about the competence of every presidential administration. I've never seen an administration that was as competent as I would like. So it isn't the fact that you have concerns which I disagreed with.

The above disclaimer is inconsistent with the fact that, for example, when discussing federal hurricane aid to Puerto Rico, I claimed that the federal disproportionately smaller than aid given for hurricanes in TX or FL:

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so Maria had 72% of the damage that Harvey had. Then why didn't they at least get 72% of the federal aid that Harvey had?
You responded:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do know they didn’t? None of the figures presented so far are the total federal aid.

And so I countered with a post covering total aid through 180 days:

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Here's a graph of total aid 180 days after landfall:

Harvey: FEMA Money 1.5 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 13 Billion

Total: 14.5 Billion

Maria: FEMA Money 1.15 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 2.35 Billion

Total: 3.5 Billion

Using these numbers Puerto Rico received a little more than 24% of the federal aid that Texas did. That's in the first 180 days, so admittedly it may not be total federal aid, but while perhaps an excuse could be made for such a disparity after only 9 days, I fail to see any such excuse justifying such a disparity after 180 days.

Graph: https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/4/1...1/F1.large.jpg

From: https://gh.bmj.com/content/4/1/e001191

Note on terms:

(from the website linked above).
To this you made what I consider to be one of your most amusing posts ever:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And third, after 180 days, we're not really in a catastrophe anymore, are we?

Oh, so suddenly you're not interested in total aid anymore (now that you see it doesn't fit your narrative), huh?

Spin, Spin, Spin, My Little Darling! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg-zN6oNA4U

The point I am making is that, despite your protestations (both then and now) your objective has always been to defend Trump at any cost. Your protestations were BS then:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You fundamentally misunderstand what I'm doing here. I'm not defending Trump. I'm criticizing your hysterical chicken little doomsday bull ****.
And they are BS now. And now that your position of defending Trump is even harder to support, I fully expect you to double down on your claim that you're not actually defending Trump. LOL! Like with this part:

Quote:
But I'm not sure why you think the coronavirus death toll is particularly relevant to your claim. The worst blunders responsible for the most deaths have happened at the state and local level, such as the order to force nursing homes to accept Covid-19 positive patients into their facilities.
Oh yes, the usual, expected deflection. It wouldn't be a true Zig post without one. LMFAO!
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2020, 02:24 AM   #149
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,581
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Dear Zig/Dear theprestige,


With US coronavirus deaths over 100,000 (the most of any country throughout the world), are either of you now prepared to acknowledge how wrong you were to simply scoff at my concerns over the competence of the Trump administration in this thread? Even if, perhaps, you think Trump hasn't had any major blunders, there absolutely is cause for concern?

And while I continue to maintain that I am not a prophet, I must admit I am amused by the fact that "virus outbreak" just happened to be first on my list of concerns:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabbage
It's vague only due to the fact that I'm not a prophet able to predict the next crisis, which could be a virus outbreak, a hurricane/earthquake/tornado outbreak, a financial crisis et cetera.
Indeed your first point on the list triggered the third point.

In another thread I was suggesting that President Trump will find a way to draw focus away from the omnishambles which is his handling of the George Floyd related unrest. rdaneel reminded us all that hurricane season is on its way and a Sharpie-related incident would be one way to to this.

By the way, is Puerto Rico still in a bad way and we've all just forgotten it in the shuffle of all the other bad stuff or did the Trump Administration finally do its job ? Don't worry, it's a rhetorical question
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2020, 07:32 AM   #150
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The above disclaimer is inconsistent with the fact that, for example, when discussing federal hurricane aid to Puerto Rico, I claimed that the federal disproportionately smaller than aid given for hurricanes in TX or FL:
Nope. You're moving the goalpost. The original complaint was that Trump's incompetence was a direct threat to people's lives. But that's not the complaint you have with long-term disaster relief aid.

Quote:
The point I am making is that, despite your protestations (both then and now) your objective has always been to defend Trump at any cost.
Your objective has always been to attack Trump at any cost. You don't actually care about politician's incompetence being a threat to people's lives. If you did, then you'd care more about making Covid-19 positive patients go back to nursing homes. But Trump didn't make that decision, so you just ignore it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2020, 09:25 AM   #151
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. You're moving the goalpost. The original complaint was that Trump's incompetence was a direct threat to people's lives. But that's not the complaint you have with long-term disaster relief aid.

I wasn't implying it was incompetence exclusively--Pettiness and Racism are also factors, and all three of them played a role in underfunding the Puerto Rican recovery, which was and is a direct threat to people's lives.

No goalpost move at all.

Do you understand now?


Quote:
Your objective has always been to attack Trump at any cost. You don't actually care about politician's incompetence being a threat to people's lives. If you did, then you'd care more about making Covid-19 positive patients go back to nursing homes. But Trump didn't make that decision, so you just ignore it.

Oh, so now you pretend to know what I do and do not care about? Yes, I do care about making COVID-19 positive patients go back to nursing homes; whatever gave you the idea that I do not? I'd like to see you present evidence of that claim. Please note: The Venn Diagram of "Stuff I Care About" and "Stuff I Post About" are distinct circles--While the circles do indeed overlap, both of their relative complements are nonempty. This should be obvious. You seem to think otherwise, for some reason (I can't think of any other hypotheti cal "evidence" you could possibly base your claim on. I guarantee you have no other form of "evidence". Go ahead: Try me. Total Logic Fail).

At any rate, your Whataboutism is merely a deflection (as previously noted) and in no way excuses the incomptence/pettiness/racism of the Trump administration and the chaos that it has led to today (which, as I am sure you know, goes far beyond merely COVID-19).

I'd also like to see you present evidence that my objective is to attack Trump at any cost. The fact that Trump has so many things to attack does not imply that my (or anyone's objective) is to attack him at any cost. You, on the other hand--I've never seen you acknowledge even one significant complaint against Trump (as illustrated by the above exchange regarding Puerto Rico ).
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2020, 09:34 AM   #152
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so now you pretend to know what I do and do not care about?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2020, 09:38 AM   #153
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

Nope. I actually gave empirical evidence (something you evidently lack) of you flip flopping to defend Trump (re: Above Puerto Rico exchange)

Nice Try
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:43 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.