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15th January 2020, 08:38 PM | #81 |
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15th January 2020, 08:39 PM | #82 |
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15th January 2020, 08:42 PM | #83 |
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15th January 2020, 08:49 PM | #84 |
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In addition, both of these statements are simply factually incorrect. If I am motivated to tell you something you don't already know, and then it turns out you already knew what I told you, that does not change the fact that I had that motivation (ie, it does not negate the motivation). You could argue that my actions to satisfy the motivation were misplaced, but the motivation itself was still there--It has not been negated. Again, you have this entirely backwards. |
15th January 2020, 09:01 PM | #85 |
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15th January 2020, 09:05 PM | #86 |
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15th January 2020, 09:09 PM | #87 |
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15th January 2020, 09:11 PM | #88 |
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15th January 2020, 09:46 PM | #89 |
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15th January 2020, 09:48 PM | #90 |
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15th January 2020, 09:48 PM | #91 |
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To me, the issue isn’t whether or not to vote for him. To me, the issue is what mechanism is in place to deal with a president whose mental faculties are beginning to fail because of senility, Alzheimer’s, or a mental disorder.
If President Trump were suffering from narcissistic personality disorder that greatly impaired his ability to serve his country, then the 25th Amendment would be useless if he surrounded himself with enablers and people who were afraid to speak up. Even if his doctor were convinced that the President were a danger to himself and others, and the doctor brought in 8 specialists with Republican leanings who independently drew the same conclusion, there would be no way to remove President Trump from office. |
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15th January 2020, 09:49 PM | #92 |
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15th January 2020, 09:59 PM | #93 |
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Here, let me give you a simple analogy to make this easier for you to understand. Say someone puts on 250 pair of underwear simultaneously. Their motivation is to set the world record for most underwear worn simultaneously. Someone comes around and says, "Hey, that can't be your motivation: The record is already 266 pair!" This, however, is irrelevant and incorrect (the part about motivation, not the part about the record): The former person may have been misinformed, but the motivation was still to set a record. Knowledge that comes after the fact doesn't change that motivation. Similarly, if I am motivated to tell you something you've never heard before, but then it turns out you've already heard what I had to tell you, that does not negate the motivation--The motivation was still there. You can't change that. |
15th January 2020, 11:06 PM | #94 |
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15th January 2020, 11:11 PM | #95 |
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Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3
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15th January 2020, 11:33 PM | #96 |
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15th January 2020, 11:38 PM | #97 |
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.....(sigh)...... Take it up with theprestige--He was the one making claims about motivations/justifications being necessary. And my motivations were never a subject at all. Are you having trouble following the conversation? And for someone who dares to ask who cares what I have to say, you sure do have habit of bitching about what I do say. An awful lot, in fact. LOL! |
16th January 2020, 06:51 AM | #98 |
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16th January 2020, 11:13 AM | #99 |
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No, but you obviously are. Theprestige, was talking about the motivations of the Yale Group and their justifications for speaking out, which are germane. You keep giving analogies about yourself telling people something which is not germane -what you -a random layperson- tell people and why you tell them tells us nothing about the ethics of the Yale Group
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16th January 2020, 11:22 AM | #100 |
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His ignorance and any mental illness he might have are completely separate issues. It’s just plain wrong to connect the two. Therefore, pointing out his ignorance is indeed irrelevant to this thread. Unless of course, you are trying to connect the two, which is completely wrongheaded, unfair to people with mental illness and a major reason why the APA has an ethical rule against the kinds of statements the Yale Group is making. |
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16th January 2020, 04:25 PM | #101 |
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Had you actually read for comprehension you would understand I gave those analogies only to facilitate theprestige's struggle to understand what I was saying to begin with.
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BS. Only yesterday you were whining about someone bringing up Trump's ignorance, saying it was irrelevant. Upon being told that it actually was relevant, you simply whined some more. |
16th January 2020, 04:27 PM | #102 |
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16th January 2020, 05:02 PM | #103 |
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16th January 2020, 05:19 PM | #104 |
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16th January 2020, 05:27 PM | #105 |
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16th January 2020, 06:25 PM | #106 |
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16th January 2020, 06:44 PM | #107 |
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You used Bob’s explanation as a rebuttal. Why should we accept that explanation? Bob isn’t a mental health professional. On the other hand, actual MHPs have repeatedly warned against stigmatizing the mentally ill, which is what associating ignorance with mental illness is doing. Hell, even Dr. Lee herself has backed away from using “mental illness;” she insists that she’s only assessing his “dangerousness.”* But the fact remains that the core argument of the Yale Group (of which Dr Lee is a founding member) is that Trump has a mental illness and that makes him dangerous. Such stigmatization is wrong and thus, mental illness should be left out of that argument. If one wants to argue that Trump’s ignorance (of history, of foreign affairs or even just general ignorance) makes him dangerous, that argument does not belong here. *If one separates dangerousness from mental health, as Dr. Lee claims she has done, then one’s status as a MHP is entirely irrelevant and one shouldn’t be using that expertise as a basis from which to argue. And if Dr. Lee isn’t talking about his mental health...well, she sure does talk a lot about his mental health. She can’t have it both ways. |
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16th January 2020, 06:59 PM | #108 |
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16th January 2020, 08:03 PM | #109 |
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17th January 2020, 12:44 AM | #110 |
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17th January 2020, 01:16 AM | #111 |
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The rest of that post doesn't really make any claims about a link (existence or non-existence) between mental illness and ignorance; it merely says we should avoid speaking of such links to avoid stigmatizing the mentally ill. I'm more interested in facts, thanks. And you claim "Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air" but you have yet to specify anything wrong with it.....That's all that really needs to be said about your "contribution". |
17th January 2020, 01:49 AM | #112 |
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It's interesting watching this debate, which has increasingly become xjx388 telling everyone else that 'they're not allowed to say that'. The professional psyches? -- they're not allowed - goldwater Anyone not a psyche doesn't have the right either, we've now learned. So that covers, er, everyone. When that doesn't work it's 'Off topic!! Off topic!! It's very telling |
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17th January 2020, 08:41 AM | #113 |
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You are claiming that you have explained nothing in this thread? I am tempted to agree with that. But actually you have attempted to explain many things, without any qualifications or expertise of your own. Yet you criticize others for not being qualified. That is plain hypocrisy.
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17th January 2020, 08:48 AM | #114 |
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Please quote where I've said that someone isn't allowed to say something. The shrinks are ethically barred from speaking out but obviously they are allowed to -they are doing it. Non-professionals are allowed to say whatever they want about mental illness but it's meaningless.
It's like you only hear what you want and not what I actually say.
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17th January 2020, 08:50 AM | #115 |
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I have used the relevant citations to back up my positions. The APA, Dr. Frances, various papers, other professional commentary . . . throughout the years of this thread, I have supported every argument I make. Never have I represented myself as an expert. Never have I pulled an argument out of thin air because that's the way I think it is.
Bob001 did just that -pulled something out of the air and presented it as fact. I'd like to see him provide a professional source that says "delusion causes ignorance." I'll wait. |
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17th January 2020, 08:58 AM | #116 |
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No, maybe you didn't.
Try this though: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12942998 If you're not happy with that, I'll find more.
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your whole schtick in the this thread has been seeking to control the conversation to avoid the awkward bits you don't like. But you carry on, chap. |
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17th January 2020, 11:04 AM | #117 |
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No need because they will all be along the same lines: Steering people back to the relevant issues of the thread.
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I see it completely the opposite: I see many posters here wanting to avoid the topic of the ethics of what the Yale Group has done. Very few posters want to acknowledge the general ignorance of a statement like "Delusions cause ignorance," and how stigmatizing such labels and stereotypes can be to the mentally ill. Almost no one wants to address the dubious methodology by which the Yale Group has remotely diagnosed a person they've never met. Those issues are simply handwaved away with "Dunning-Kruger, Trump bootlicker, it's obvious!, the system is broken, they are professionals and they disagree with the ethics, blah, blah blah." But I'm the one avoiding the "awkward bits."
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17th January 2020, 12:17 PM | #118 |
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You're just being silly. Nobody says ignorance and mental illness are the same things. But it should be self-evident that delusional thinking -- rejection of reality -- is one explanation for ignorance -- lack of knowledge and deficits in the ability to grasp facts and process information. Like Dunning-Kruger syndrome:
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And: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmur.../#5b9f2c315d7c Of course, there's always this:
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Of course, if you want to insist that delusional thinking and willful rejection of reality are no different from ordinary lack of education, have at it. Meanwhile, the latest chilling revelation:
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17th January 2020, 12:44 PM | #119 |
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Trump is the poster boy for that malignant narcissism description. So much so that you'd think they had Trump in mind when it was written.
I watched about 30 seconds of a FOX News show this morning (it was all I could stomach). The GOP pundit (don't know his name) was repeated that the impeachment 'hoax' is just the Dems wanting to 'negate' the 2016 election. I'm so sick of that stupid and lazy excuse. |
17th January 2020, 01:43 PM | #120 |
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A person who has an inability to process information and has a delusional view of reality due to mental illness is not ignorant, they are mentally ill. That's the difference. You cannot use ignorance as evidence of a mental illness. A person with intellectual disabilities is not ignorant, their brains simply can't process information correctly. ETA: It's this conflation of ignorance with mental illness that is the problem.
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