|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
12th March 2020, 08:14 PM | #321 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,466
|
And as soon as he wins he'll do what all politicians like that do. Drop the act and pursue what they intended to all along. I actually hate that aspect of politics. I'd much rather they all ran on what they actually believe and therefore what they will actually fight for. At least that way you know what you're getting and can vote accordingly.
|
__________________
Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them. |
|
12th March 2020, 08:43 PM | #322 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
Bernie said something reported yesterday that hints of a concession IMO - that he would be talking to people and debating Biden and finding out "who is best positioned" to take on Trump and/or move policy in a more progressive direction. That's a paraphrase. I don't really know much about his personality, if he is likely to concede that Biden might be that person. I can see it not being 100 percent clear at this point. Just as I was saying hmm, maybe that's
Bernie, several candidates dropped out and threw in with Biden. These people probably know each other pretty well and maybe they know more than I do which of their colleagues has a better shot. |
12th March 2020, 08:58 PM | #323 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
The Return to Normal™ strategy raises the spectre of recreating the conditions that lead to Trump. Consider the possibility that, while I understand many have been hurt by his Presidency, we got lucky that the tyrant catapulted into power is a buffoon.
I even wielded the Marius-Sulla-Pompey/Crassus-Caesar analogy several times early in Trump's administration. Trump isn't the scariest part about Trump, it's the crafty opportunist watching what Trump could be getting away with if he weren't getting in his own way. |
12th March 2020, 09:57 PM | #324 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
Nonsense.
First, it'll take 4 years for Biden to clean up the mess. Then we can elect someone else. But second, there was no mess that led to Trump. Unless you are referring to bigotry and a constant message of how bad things were when they weren't. Remember McConnell making it clear he planned to sabotage everything Obama did? And if his goal was to stack the SCOTUS with biased judges, what does that say about said 'conditions that led to Trump'? Are you including legal abortions in said conditions? Demanding religion get out of school science classes? What are these conditions you speak of? |
12th March 2020, 11:10 PM | #325 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 10,678
|
...I hate to break it to you, but, given Sanders, the chance of radical reform in a Sanders Presidency would be unfortunately very, very low. Warren, given her overwhelming competence and serious networking, preparation, and planning, would have had a fighting chance (and is the only candidate that was in the field that did, really) - but even then, not even remotely a guarantee.
Err... there was distinctly more than that. The GOP's lies and political nonsense is certainly a major factor and deserves significant emphasis, but it's hardly all there was - especially in places that tended to be controlled by Republicans. Take the coal industry as a rather obvious example, though hardly the only one. Its death has been slow and painful, but ever quickening... and that rather clearly causes problems in areas that are largely dependent on it. Denying the many, many problems isn't even remotely beneficial, much as hammering on the Republicans for usually making the actual problems hit much harder than they would have under actually responsible management of the situation might be useful. Much of the GOP's MO, really, is creating problems for the average person by overwhelming trying to put the power into a few (rich, though frequently not moral or competent) hands and then working to profit off of the inevitable problems that directly and indirectly result, one way or another. |
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
|
13th March 2020, 04:13 AM | #326 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Both Sanders or Biden are walking into the same partisan gridlock. The difference is how they will respond to it.
Biden's messaging about bipartisanship and good-faith negotiation shows that he refuses to deal with the situation as it is. McConnell is going to play him like a fiddle. I don't expect Sanders to walk into office and wave a magic wand to make Medicare For All happen. I do think he would be able to radically reframe the discussion of the issue and drag the party back after years of rightward drift. We need a president that is going to draw a sharp contrast, not just another centrist that is just a more polite, less bigoted version of Republicans. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
13th March 2020, 08:27 AM | #327 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
|
13th March 2020, 09:04 AM | #328 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
13th March 2020, 09:07 AM | #329 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Having an agenda that extends beyond the execution of the President's duties isn't actually part of the President's job. Of course he does have one. And of course he hopes the Legislature will enact it, but having that agenda and getting the legislature to enact it isn't part of the job. The job is actually for the president to enact the legislature's agenda.
|
13th March 2020, 09:13 AM | #330 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,625
|
I think Biden has been around long enough and understands the political climate that he won't be "Played like a fiddle". He has seen how McConnell treated Obama.
Quote:
You don't think Bernie has a "Magic wand", you think he just has magic powers. I guess that makes a big difference. He's not a Harry Potter wizard, "Accio BernieCare". He's a Jedi. "These are not the policies you are looking for".
Quote:
Clinton once signed the "defense of Marriage act". Now, gay marriage is something that widely accepted within the Democratic party. The party also seems to have accepted loosening restrictions on marijuana. What about the economy? Well, again, Clinton had relaxed many of the financial regulations (which contributed to the crash of 2008). But Obama had restored many of those regulations, and most of the Democratic candidates want even stricter enforcement. And pretty much every Democrat wants an increase in the minimum wage. Perhaps free trade is one area where many democrats have "drifted to the right", but I think evidence has shown that trade liberalization is usually beneficial to the economy.
Quote:
Why should anyone give any attention to what you say if you consider a Democrat who wants to expand access to public health care, protect abortion rights and increase taxes on the wealthy as a "version of the republicans" just because they don't particularly like Sander's particular policies? Again, is your understanding of the political landscape so skewed that you can't actually identify the differences between non-Sanders democrats and Republicans? |
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
|
13th March 2020, 09:13 AM | #331 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
13th March 2020, 09:18 AM | #332 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
13th March 2020, 09:31 AM | #333 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
I'm sure Biden is going to make abortion access his top priority. It's not like he's been opposed to that his entire career and only changed his view to clear the primary. Hope you're ready for him to stop talking about all together once the general election starts. Joe doesn't give a damn about abortion access, don't be naive. Joe's gonna gallop back to the right the second that he gets the nomination.
Joe was on an interview where he said he would veto Medicare for All if it managed to clear the legislature. He can't even pretend to support progressive policies in a hypothetical where a minor miracle has occurred. He cites "high costs" as the reason. Free trade, what a resounding success. The people in the rust belt are sure glad they could make such a noble sacrifice for the good of the economy. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
13th March 2020, 09:53 AM | #334 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,625
|
I never claimed that Biden would have a magical way to get around McConnel's obstructionism. No democrat has that (not even Sanders)
But the previous poster suggested that McConnell would "play Biden like a fiddle", suggesting he would be manipulated into doing things that were against the country's best interest. That is a different issue than whether there will be obstructionism. I think Biden is smart enough not to be manipulated by Moscow Mitch. Yes, there may be times when some negotiation is warranted, but that would be the case with any Democrat. |
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
|
13th March 2020, 10:06 AM | #335 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
My bad. Someone made the comparison to Obama. I inferred that they meant McConnell had played Obama, but Biden was too smart and too experienced to get played the same way.
My response to that inference is that Biden was already about as smart and experienced as he could be, when he served as Obama's VP. If he wasn't able to help Obama avoid getting played by McConnell, how could he help himself avoid the same fate, just a few short years later? But if that inference was incorrect, then my response is moot. |
13th March 2020, 12:21 PM | #336 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
I'm not insulated.
40 years of economic anxiety caused by whom? Trump was elected because the country has had a steady diet of right wing propaganda. What I'm asking you is to be specific, just what specific causes of economic anxiety has the country experienced that you think Trump was the answer to? He was an answer to propaganda fed fear mongering. The economy was not crashing the 8 years prior to Trump. It's a big lie. How is Biden going to ruin your day? |
13th March 2020, 12:23 PM | #337 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
|
13th March 2020, 12:34 PM | #338 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
First, McConnell's reelection is not certain. And even if he's reelected, the GOP holding the Senate majority is not certain either.
Second, McConnell does not have the power he once had. He tied his fortunes to Trump and Trump is falling flat on his face right now. Third, Biden has 8 years of hindsight to draw on. |
13th March 2020, 12:48 PM | #339 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
13th March 2020, 12:54 PM | #340 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
|
13th March 2020, 01:07 PM | #341 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
13th March 2020, 01:16 PM | #342 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Irrelevant to the point under discussion.
Quote:
Quote:
It seems like Obama would have been better served if Biden had figured out a game plan for the McConnell Senate during his running mate's first term, and they'd put it into action in the second term. If Biden and Obama together couldn't figure it out in four, five, six years, what makes you think Biden can figure it out on his own in eight, nine, ten years? Don't you think maybe if he had a game plan for McConnell, we would have seen it by now? I think you better hope McConnell's out of the picture after November. Because there's no indication Biden is up to the task of working around him. |
13th March 2020, 01:42 PM | #343 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
|
|
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
|
13th March 2020, 02:29 PM | #344 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
|
|
13th March 2020, 02:30 PM | #345 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
That first sentence really stops me. If you've been economically anxious for 40 years, think about the easily billion or so people on the planet who are just trying to survive from meal to meal. That is not economic reality for most Americans. The U.S. boomer population has lived better than any generation ever. Maybe the more you have, the more insecure you feel. I know wealth inequality happens, is real and it is IMO a drag on progress, but whatever is going on in the U.S. pales against what happens globally.
In the second sentence I just don't understand what you're trying to say. |
13th March 2020, 02:35 PM | #346 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
|
Not all of them, of course, but on average this checks out.
https://twitter.com/graykimbrough/st...03644721524744 |
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.” |
|
13th March 2020, 02:44 PM | #347 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
13th March 2020, 02:49 PM | #348 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
From that link:
Quote:
|
13th March 2020, 02:51 PM | #349 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
|
BINGO! EXACTLY! SPOT-ON!
SG, you're not missing the forest for the trees, you're missing the whole planet. The "mess" is decades of American corporate kleptocracy. We live in a plutocracy now and Trump, despite being a plutocrat himself, was able to convince large numbers of people that he was an advocate the the "little guy". That "mess is real and needs to be cleaned up. The Democrats, while claiming to be supporters of the middle class, have done almost as much as the GOP in contributing to this mess. Until their rhetoric and policies reflect a recognition of the fact of our plutocracy, they will remain in trouble. That is why I am a Warren man. She explicitly recognizes the problem and knows what to do about it. The others, not so much. |
13th March 2020, 02:54 PM | #350 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
|
|
13th March 2020, 02:54 PM | #351 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Indeed. The decline of American society has been a bipartisan effort.
In 2016, pissed off people were made to choose between a hated technocrat that hardly deigned to acknowledge the problem and a charlatan that promised to poke the system in the eye. When real relief is not possible, spite seems pretty attractive. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
13th March 2020, 03:32 PM | #352 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
|
|
13th March 2020, 03:45 PM | #353 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
|
13th March 2020, 03:51 PM | #354 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
If this is your rationale for why Trump was elected, we live on different planets. Yes, much of that is true. No, it is not why Trump got elected. If anything it's the opposite, corporate interference is exactly how we got incompetrump.
To me, this is the Sanders' supporters' POV that the revolution which obviously ain't happening is the answer. Warren is out of the race in case you missed that memo. Biden is all we have. Time to suck it up and stop promoting the belief Biden and Trump are the same. |
13th March 2020, 04:01 PM | #355 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
The question was, how will Biden respond, if McConnell does walk all over him. Imagining scenarios where that doesn't happen doesn't address the scenario where it does happen..
If McConnell does happen to stay in power after November, do you think Biden's got a good game plan for dealing with him? |
13th March 2020, 04:48 PM | #356 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
I see nobody is even going to pretend like I made those comments in the context of pushing back against the idea the Return to Normal might not be as appealing to everyone as its proponents imagine.
I'm aware it's worse across most of the planet. That has nothing to do with whether people have anything to be angry about in America. |
13th March 2020, 09:29 PM | #357 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,466
|
|
__________________
Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them. |
|
13th March 2020, 10:02 PM | #358 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 10,678
|
Hmm. To poke at this - When it comes to DOMA, I admit to not being particularly attentive to politics at the time, but... I've heard, recently, that DOMA was an unpleasant compromise for the Democrats as they worked to derail Republican plans of a Constitutional Amendment to completely rule out gay marriage. Thus, that might not be the best example.
To chip in a little... I'm largely in agreement with theprestige here. Going further, Biden has addressed this issue directly and repeated... with a pattern in his responses. A pattern that inspires no confidence from me, given that it's basically just... "If I'm elected, the Republicans will be a tiny bit easier to work with and McConnell won't be quite as bad" and without any specifics. I have no problem with calling that magical thinking. Naturally, Biden could surprise me in a good way on that front and if he becomes President, I really, really hope he does. More specifically, more trade is good, overall, even if it's not great for every industry everywhere. Things change, though, regardless. The phonograph makers have long been out of business, for example. With that said, though, there certainly are a number of measures that could have been used to reduce the damage, increase worker protections, and help with transitioning that weren't done, I think. One of the things that Warren called for, for example, was making it mandatory that part of the board of directors for big companies be composed of the workers - a measure that has apparently done quite a lot elsewhere to reduce damages caused by adherents to shareholder theory and profits are the only thing that matter philosophies. |
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
|
13th March 2020, 10:06 PM | #359 |
Poisoned Waffles
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 68,744
|
Somewhere out there is a cancer-ridden AIDS-having limbless blind dwarf baby who is the only person allowed to complain about anything, ever. And then just when he's feeling pretty full of himself out pops his smaller, sicker conjoined twin, who has all of that plus a cleft palate.
If you think about it, out of the seven whatever billion people on the planet, if you rank them all in terms of how bad they have it someone has to be on the bottom. Life must really, really suck for that one. But on the bright side you could also rank every human by how attractive they are. Can you imagine how incandescently hot the top 10 must be? They must appear as gods amongst barnyard animals! Just think of it, think of the hottest person you've ever met: the odds are very good that compared to the real Top Ten, that hot person looks like a termite queen that got stepped on and busted open. It really puts things into perspective, eh? I'm going to go up to that really hot guy I've been too shy to ask out and say, just right to his face, "hey, you may be really gorgeous but somewhere out there are people who make your face look like a big insect leaking pus. Wanna go out?" Oh, also, to stay on topic, Biden needs to do something about his eye sockets. Whether it's real or fake tan he's got to put something on those white circles. It looks bad by itself, but it's magnified when he's running against Trump. That last thing he needs is another point of similarity with that orange dotard. |
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
|
14th March 2020, 12:38 AM | #360 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
|
|
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|