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7th May 2020, 03:40 PM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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He was part of the broader investigation into Russia's influence on the election and the new President, and he lied about his contacts with the Russian ambassador.
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And now his claim is what? "Those meany FBI agents tricked me. They didn't tell me how much they already knew." The real tragedy is that the judge kept putting off his sentencing. He could have been put away (and realistically would probably only have gotten a few months inside) at least a year ago. |
7th May 2020, 04:29 PM | #42 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Nothing about the Flynn investigation had anything whatsoever to do with the election. And despite the attempt to portray Flynn as having violated the Logan act, nothing about his phone call with the Russian ambassador was either illegal or even improper.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 04:39 PM | #43 |
Nasty Woman
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I've only heard bits and pieces and don't care to waste my time looking. But I was under the impression Barr made some effort to say the questioning itself was inappropriate.
It's a twofur: Diss the whole Mueller report hoax, chipping away at it with these little assertions the investigation was flawed. Hey, it worked for OJ. And get Flynn off at the same time. Trump needs to protect a few past insiders lest the current ones fear getting tossed under the bus when it is their turn. |
7th May 2020, 04:42 PM | #44 |
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7th May 2020, 04:46 PM | #45 |
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Ashley Babbit was a good start. |
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7th May 2020, 04:52 PM | #46 |
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Let's have a little review here folks.
Flynn's lie was that he had had no Russian contact. Not only was that a lie, but he was acting as a rep of a foreign government and failed to register as one. And he didn't declare certain income from said position when he was supposed to declare it. And the backdrop for this was SIGNIFICANT RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE US FEDERAL ELECTION!!!!!!!!! Factcheck Flynn Timeline
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Has everyone forgotten? Hello? |
7th May 2020, 05:06 PM | #47 |
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Duplicate
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 05:14 PM | #48 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, that's not what the DOJ said. You can find out what they said here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/4603...ynn#from_embed It's not just proving that he lied. That doesn't actually suffice for a crime. There are other elements to the crime as well, elements that the DOJ doesn't believe it can prove because, well, they don't exist. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 05:22 PM | #49 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 05:22 PM | #50 |
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The broad concern was about whether Russia had a hold on Trump and/or the people who worked for him, not just about the election. And there were multiple calls and emails.
https://www.theatlantic.com/news/arc...meline/516594/ Of course, Flynn had Russian contacts going back to before the election. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/mi...ssia-timeline/ The deputy attorney general was worried that Flynn was making private deals with Russia, lying about it, and was vulnerable to blackmail. Flynn himself confessed in court that he lied to the FBI. Of course, I can see why you wouldn't believe an admitted liar. The "damn good reason" was that he promised to cooperate with investigators, and the delay was to give him ample opportunity to do so, in so doing reducing his sentence. You might recall that at one sentencing hearing the judge warned him that it might not go well for him, and he should go back and try again.
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And of course we have Trump's word that Flynn lied. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael...-to-fbi-pence/ |
7th May 2020, 05:23 PM | #51 |
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I get how Captain Swoop feels. He'e ex-military and so am I.
Flynn has betrayed his country, his oath to serve and his code of honor. Military and ex-military people take seriously stuff such as abiding by the oath you took to serve your country. When it comes to that kind of loyalty, there is no such thing as "ex-military". What Flynn did was an unthinkable act of treachery - its the sort of thing for which I would have no hesitation in dragging him into the O-Club stock room and teaching him a serious lesson about what loyalty to your country means. |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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7th May 2020, 05:27 PM | #52 |
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I am of the opinion that lying to feds shouldn't be a crime, at least, not in the very broad way it is now. The Feds have a long history of abusing the tools granted to them. ACAB.
Flynn did lots of illegal stuff besides lying to the feds. Wish our law enforcement were competent enough to stick it to him for that, but they weren't. |
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7th May 2020, 05:36 PM | #53 |
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7th May 2020, 05:38 PM | #54 |
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Exactly.
Randy Weaver was a white supremacist piece of trash. The ATF still botched Ruby Ridge. It's possible for everyone to be the bad guy. The feds screw things up all the time, even when the target is an unambiguous villain. Federal law enforcement overreach is a real problem that existed prior to 2016. |
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7th May 2020, 05:41 PM | #55 |
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And no evidence has ever turned up that they did. Which the FBI knew before they interviewed Flynn. Which is why the investigation into Flynn was going to be closed.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 05:42 PM | #56 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Why? Lying to the feds (or to any law enforcement) could obstruct an investigation, send investigators in the wrong direction, shield the guilty and implicate the innocent. You don't have to talk to the cops at all, and the time-honored escape hatch from a sticky question has been "I don't know" or "I don't remember." Bu deliberately lying is a crime for good reason.
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7th May 2020, 05:51 PM | #57 |
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As I suspected, you're full of ****. All that indicates is that there was discussion of what the goals were when it came to questioning a suspect. That's a discussion any LEOs would have in advance of an interrogation. It is in no way exculpatory, no matter how many ****-sipping Republicans claim it to be so.
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7th May 2020, 05:52 PM | #58 |
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Mods, I just note that there appear to be two identical threads on this subject.
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7th May 2020, 05:53 PM | #59 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Because the feds are notorious abusers of the investigative tools we grant them.
Even prior to the Flynn case, advocates have been complaining about the broadness of this power. It's a position which is very much contested (my bias is clear on this matter), but it should be understood that criminal justice reformers that aren't MAGA cultists have had a problem with this power prior to this. That said, clearly Barr's intervention here has nothing to do with police reform and everything to do with covering Trump's lackeys. |
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7th May 2020, 06:12 PM | #60 |
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One of the problems with the FBI in particular, which even local PD's tend to do a better job on, is their policy of not recording interviews. It's absurd that you can be prosecuted for lying when the only evidence that you lied is what the FBI says you said. That's essentially hearsay. It's ridiculous that in this day and age, the FBI doesn't record interviews as the rule, not the exception.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 06:15 PM | #61 |
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It's definitely exculpatory if the interview was done for illegitimate purposes. And entrapment is an illegitimate purpose.
And again, whether or not you personally think this points to a potentially illegitimate purpose, the fact is that a jury might think otherwise. So the defense were entitled to these notes, by law. And they were denied them. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 06:16 PM | #62 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 06:41 PM | #63 |
Nasty Woman
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7th May 2020, 06:43 PM | #64 |
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7th May 2020, 07:00 PM | #65 |
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I repeat, You don't have to talk to the cops at all, certainly not without a lawyer, and most lawyers would advise you not to do so. But when you say "Tony Macaroni was at my house" when he wasn't, and he gets away with murder because of it, that's a crime. You think that's a problem?
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7th May 2020, 07:04 PM | #66 |
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7th May 2020, 07:07 PM | #67 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th May 2020, 07:10 PM | #68 |
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7th May 2020, 07:17 PM | #69 |
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Yes.
https://www.scribd.com/document/4581...ENT-MISCONDUCT "In addition, Mr. Flynn’s counsel has found further evidence of misconduct by Mr. Van Grack specifically. Not only did he make baseless threats to indict Michael G. Flynn, he made a side deal not to prosecute Michael G. Flynn as a material term of the plea agreement, but he required that it be kept secret between himself and the Covington attorneys expressly to avoid the requirement of Giglio v. United States, 405 U.S. 150 (1972)." |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 07:20 PM | #70 |
Penultimate Amazing
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But that's exactly what happens, on a regular basis.
What other corroborating evidence can there even be in such a case? Lies told outside the interview aren't evidence of a crime, because lying isn't generally illegal. Only a lie during an interview is illegal. FBI statements are the only evidence of what happened in the interview, so they are the totality of the evidence. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 07:27 PM | #71 |
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7th May 2020, 07:30 PM | #72 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th May 2020, 08:01 PM | #73 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th May 2020, 08:05 PM | #74 |
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7th May 2020, 08:07 PM | #75 |
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I don't really know all the ins and outs and am not going to the mat saying Flynn was an innocent victim. But, a longstanding principle in U.S. justice is that we'd rather see the guilty go free than improperly convict someone. I know he pleaded guilty. If that was under duress, the circumstances bear looking at.
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7th May 2020, 08:22 PM | #76 |
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The "duress" in plea deals is usually "We've got the goods on you 100 percent. Look at it yourself. If you go to trial you'll lose. If you help us we'll help you." Nobody has to take a deal. He could have gone to court and made the case that he was coerced, he was tricked, he was threatened, he never lied, he was scared, etc., etc. (I note that it might be harder for a three-star general and ex-director of defense intelligence to make that case than the average schlub.) But he didn't do that.
Here's an alternative scenario: The feds could have thrown the book at him, he could have gone to trial on a dozen or so charges, the jury could have split the difference like Manafort and convicted on half, and he could have gone away for years. Too bad he didn't turn down the deal. |
7th May 2020, 08:42 PM | #77 |
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We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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7th May 2020, 08:45 PM | #78 |
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We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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7th May 2020, 09:38 PM | #79 |
Maledictorian
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Only biased idiots would think that there was any coercion when it comes to Flynn lying to the FBI.
If your spouse asks you if you cheated on them and you say "no", and then they present you with evidence that you cheated your excuse can't be: "Honey, I only lied because I didn't think you knew the truth!" Flynn is a treacherous criminal in the pay of Turkey and it the Military should court-martial him. |
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7th May 2020, 10:00 PM | #80 |
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And since he was never charged with the worse crime, if the plea deal falls through because the DoJ drops the charges on the lesser crime, that means jeopardy can only be attached to the lesser crime (its not possible to attach jeopardy to a crime that hasn't been charged). That leaves him wide open to being charged for the worse crime. Once the corruption is rooted out from the DoJ, and Trump is gone-burger, the new Government is going to have access to all the stuff that has been hidden from view. I would not rule out orange jump suits in the future of some current and former members of the administration.
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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