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18th May 2020, 08:54 AM | #281 |
Maledictorian
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Flynn was investigated as part of counter-intelligence, not criminal investigation.
That is why there was no issue whatsoever with what people in the Obama Administration had to do to protect the US. You are aware that the Trump WH has had tens of thousands of people unmasked, right? |
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18th May 2020, 09:08 AM | #282 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Intelligence work and criminal justice are completely separate domains, with separate rules and separate scopes. The state needing to know the caller's identity for national security reasons does not translate to the state being entitled to reveal his identity for criminal prosecution.
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Can you make this argument from the other direction? "Obama's unmaskings have Justification X, which is not true for Trump's unmaskings." Anyway: |
18th May 2020, 09:13 AM | #283 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, I am not aware that the Trump White House has unmasked tens of thousands of people.
I'm aware of reports that roughly those numbers of people were unmasked during the Trump administration, but the reports I've seen only list those as totals for the government, and do not break down how many of those were unmasked by people in the White House versus outside the White House. Since the White House is generally not engaged directly in either criminal or counter-intelligence investigations, I expect that only a small fraction of those names were actually unmasked by the White House. If you have a source which indicates otherwise, please share. If you do not, consider yourself corrected. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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18th May 2020, 10:43 AM | #284 |
Maledictorian
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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18th May 2020, 11:08 AM | #285 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A lot, I think. Departmental staff going through due process without being micromanged from the White House is a lot different from White House staff dispensing with due process.
But like I said: And: |
18th May 2020, 11:22 AM | #286 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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18th May 2020, 11:26 AM | #287 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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18th May 2020, 11:30 AM | #288 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Not pedantic at all. There's a huge difference, practically and in principle, between civil servants following departmental procedure and due process, and White House officials dispensing with those niceties.
But IF, as you suggest, the difference between Obama admin WH staff doing it and Trump admin agency staff doing it is merely pedantic, THEN: |
18th May 2020, 11:38 AM | #289 |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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18th May 2020, 06:17 PM | #290 |
Critical Thinker
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Do you always believe advocate opinion on questions of law? I don't see how this is exculpatory.
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I also don't see how these are exculpatory as you've described them. Are you aware of any caselaw which requires the government provide you with their full intent during an interview?
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18th May 2020, 06:59 PM | #291 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Brady material includes material that could affect sentencing, not just verdict. If the FBI was out to get Flynn, that could easily produce a lighter sentence even with a guilty verdict.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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18th May 2020, 09:12 PM | #292 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
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I think you don't quite get the process.
Assuming intelligence officer A unmasks a US citizens scheming with a foreign agent. He/she puts a report together, because they deem the interaction a national security risk. But they can't name the citizen in the report - only the connection. The consumer of the Report has to request an unmasking him/herself to get the context - which might or might not be necessary. Do you disagree that, for context, it was essential for the WH to know who exactly in the Trump campaign was extensively communicating with the Russian Ambassador? |
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18th May 2020, 10:59 PM | #293 |
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"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. |
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18th May 2020, 11:56 PM | #294 |
Critical Thinker
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First of all, what disclosure is supposed to establish that the FBI "was out to get Flynn"?
Secondly, how would be the FBI Targeting Flynn be material to his punishment? Do you have any examples of where an investigatory agency targeting a suspect was relevant to their sentence?
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Originally Posted by Bogative, Post 267
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I'm pretty confident that you're just going to keep repeating the talking point, but know that absolutely no-one is impressed. |
19th May 2020, 01:11 AM | #295 |
Penultimate Amazing
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19th May 2020, 04:11 AM | #296 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 04:14 AM | #297 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 04:29 AM | #298 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 07:07 AM | #299 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't agree, since the contents of that call were innocuous. But even if I did, it doesn't explain why a bunch of Treasury personnel made unmasking requests regarding Flynn in mid-December 2016, before Flynn even had his conversation with the Russian ambassador.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 07:10 AM | #300 |
Maledictorian
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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19th May 2020, 07:21 AM | #301 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, I'm not. What's the supposedly controversial topic? Sanctions. Obama imposed some on Russia, Flynn didn't want Russia to retaliate. Guess what? That's in America's interests. It benefits us if Russia doesn't retaliate.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 08:21 AM | #302 | |||
Papa Funkosophy
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I'm still watching (it's 45 minutes), but this guy is usually fair and reliable.
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 09:01 AM | #303 |
Critical Thinker
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Posts: 462
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19th May 2020, 09:09 AM | #304 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 09:21 AM | #305 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,635
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I guess the point is that unmasking who is doing criminal activity is wrong if Obama does it..
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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19th May 2020, 09:21 AM | #306 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 09:46 AM | #307 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 09:48 AM | #308 |
Penultimate Amazing
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19th May 2020, 09:50 AM | #309 |
Penultimate Amazing
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19th May 2020, 09:50 AM | #310 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The link works fine for me. But here's another link:
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...92.188.0_8.pdf |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 09:52 AM | #311 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 10:00 AM | #312 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 462
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OK, thanks for the specificity.
I don't agree that this demonstrates that the FBI was "out to get Flynn." It's one agent musing about strategy, with no conclusion. But let's assume that they were out to get him.
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However I appreciate your directness about being unable to construct an explanation for a non-sympathetic audience. |
19th May 2020, 10:05 AM | #313 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
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Even if he did, if what he did was standard practice then that part of it is blown out of all proportion. As to what crimes he may have committed, I imagine the FBI etc have that well documented. I am happy to wait this out. I guess if I think anything about it it's that any crimes he may have committed are probably underwhelming or they would have been worth using against Trump by now. It could still be enough to keep him in prison for all I know.
I might be wrong, but I am hopeful there may be a few fireworks released by both sides before the election and we will find some things out that wouldn't otherwise see the light of day. |
19th May 2020, 10:07 AM | #314 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That's because they are targeted for crimes. Why was Flynn targeted? His phone call with the Russian ambassador, the subject of the interview, wasn't criminal, and the FBI knew it wasn't when they interviewed him. In fact, the interview served no legitimate purpose at all. They had the transcript already, there was no actual information they needed from Flynn.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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19th May 2020, 10:07 AM | #315 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 10:13 AM | #316 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 10:19 AM | #317 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 10:26 AM | #318 |
Maledictorian
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IF what Flynn did was so super legal ...
WHY did he lie to Pence about it? |
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19th May 2020, 10:28 AM | #319 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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19th May 2020, 10:50 AM | #320 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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