Is the Roman Catholic Church in Freefall? - Page 50

arthwollipot · 16th March 2021, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Actually, IIRC at least for the Catholics it's not even that. A blessing is pretty much just expressing a wish that God helps you. So technically, even when some guy goes "bless you" when you sneeze, yeah, that's actually a blessing.

On the other hand, whether God actually listens or not, that's a whole different issue. Saying that "god works through the priest" makes it sound like there's some guarantee that it actually works. There is none. The priest asks God to do it, and that's pretty much all that happens through the priest. From there, it's up to God.

Are there differences? At the very least priests are supposed to be better at it than laypersons. And use a different benediction formula. Bishops and the pope can use a different formula again, namely the "episcopal blessing." And then the pope himself is entitled to a yet different spell... err... formula.

It would stand to reason that since some people are holier to God than others, God would be more inclined to listen to them. After all, at the very top would be actual saints, who can outright do intercession. And again, they have different spells... err... formulas, by rank, so you'd expect them to work differently.

The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless.

And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear.

HansMustermann · 16th March 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Err yes I believe that's what I was saying:

"I ponder over the power, punch, and potency of a blessing. Surely the power and potency of the blessing by a Pope is superior to that of a mere priest, as is the punch to send it over a distance, and number of souls."

More or less, yes. I was answering to arthwollipot, not to you.

HansMustermann · 16th March 2021, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless.

I'm not entirely sure, tbh. But then, they never made it clear how many D6 you roll for a bishop's benediction, vs a regular priest's

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear.

Yes, well, the guys travelling like 1000 miles to come get blessed by the pope when he visits, probably don't really know that it's just placebo

Thor 2 · 23rd March 2021, 04:31 PM

The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état.

This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC.

arthwollipot · 23rd March 2021, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état.

This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC.

Without looking it up, I suspect you'd have to go back several hundred years for the last time it had happened. The closest they've come recently is splinter sects.

Gord_in_Toronto · 23rd March 2021, 08:54 PM

Meanwhile:

Here in Canada the Archdiocese of St. John's, N&L is selling properties to pay the Mount Cashel Orphanage victims. Apparently they have lots of it.

Some history and background here: https://globalnews.ca/news/7710267/d...-mount-cashel/

I see no word anywhere that the "Mother" church is contributing a penny.

Thor 2 · 24th March 2021, 02:44 PM

Thank's for the link Gord.

Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them.

Thor 2 · 27th March 2021, 04:17 PM

Vatican in the Red?

Quote:

Vatican City: Pope Francis has ordered cardinals to take a 10 per cent pay cut and reduced the salaries of most other clerics working in the Vatican in order to save jobs of employees as the coronavirus pandemic has hit the Holy See’s income.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/...25-p57dur.html

I suspect more grumbling in the ranks.

HansMustermann · 27th March 2021, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Thank's for the link Gord.

Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them.

Well, it's not like they had much choice in the first place, tbh. If you really thought that someone is going to hell for ever, if they don't get into specifically your flavour of religion, would you want to go "yeah, no, maybe don't send your kids to our churches after all, we have some real perverts"? Like, between a little abuse now and an eternity of torment, which would you believe is the lesser evil, assuming you absolutely believed those premises to be true.

And it's not just a matter of modern theology, sad to say. Jesus himself said it: "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matt 18:6, copied from Mark 9:42) Note that "stumbling" here is as in, stumbling in their faith.

It's not even the only place where basically from the start the message is 'get them while they're young and dumb', but yeah, it does say pretty explicitly what Jesus thinks of you if you get in the way of that.

So, yeah, if you think that covering it up is helping not lose more kids from your church, it's not just a matter of pragmatism to do so, but, quoth Dr Evil, "The power of Christ compels you!"

Mind you, I'm not approving of it, but just saying: I can understand how that follows from the whole illogical belief system. If you really believe that Jesus is real, he's your Lord, your salvation literally depends on obeying him absolutely and without questioning, and you have a direct order from him to never do anything that would lose more children converts... yeah, you do the maths

HansMustermann · 27th March 2021, 04:44 PM

And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want

Gord_in_Toronto · 27th March 2021, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want

Yup. And I'm not addicted to quoting Voltaire. I can quit later.

Quote:

Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est en droit de vous rendre injuste.

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.

François-Marie Arouet (21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778), most famous under his pen name Voltaire, was a French writer, deist and philosopher.

HansMustermann · 28th March 2021, 03:36 AM

Indeed.

Though I'd say it's not even someone else making you unjust. You can get YOURSELF to do the greatest injustices, if they follow logically from those absurd premises. That's basically why I say that religion (and quite a few non-religious doctrines too) are a bad influence.

Thor 2 · 13th April 2021, 03:56 PM

Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/

Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.

Carlotta · 13th April 2021, 04:09 PM

There are young boys in most schools or service positions. Religious, or not. Religion just adds authority.

Blue Mountain · 13th April 2021, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/

Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.

Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?

arthwollipot · 13th April 2021, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?

I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted prior to 9am.

rjh01 · 14th April 2021, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

~~Well how about that.~~ The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself to generally be seen as a vehicle for eradicating child abuse in the community. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/

Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I know nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access to a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required to join the monks for a period of time. It is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted before 9 am.

I have fixed Thor 2's (and arthwollipot's) typos and grammar errors in the above quotes for the benefit of people who have trouble understanding writing that contains such minor errors.

Here is a quote from the above link

Quote:

At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.”

I note there is nothing specific in what was said.

arthwollipot · 14th April 2021, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Here is a quote from the above link

Quote:

At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.”

I note there is nothing specific in what was said.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

- Matthew 7 1-5

Darat · 14th April 2021, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

- Matthew 7 1-5

Now burn the witch, I want to get home before supper!

HansMustermann · 14th April 2021, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

- Matthew 7 1-5

It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite.

See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.)

I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think?

Darat · 14th April 2021, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite.

See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.)

I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think?

Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count!

Thor 2 · 14th April 2021, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count!

Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge?

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th April 2021, 08:13 PM

OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort.

arthwollipot · 14th April 2021, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge?

No, it means that only God has the power to judge.

HansMustermann · 15th April 2021, 04:36 AM

It also means that for a supposed omniscient God, Jesus sure is dumber than a brick. Almost all his recipes for how to behave are horribly wrong, at least if you're not expecting the world to end anyway before you reap what you sow.

Thor 2 · 15th April 2021, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort.

Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however?

As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was.

Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today.

Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times.

Gord_in_Toronto · 15th April 2021, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however?

As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was.

Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today.

Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times.

Their faith will protect them from the words of Satan.

Quote:

1 Peter 5:8-9

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Caroline13 · 15th April 2021, 08:14 PM

It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...

arthwollipot · 15th April 2021, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...

That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete...

Caroline13 · 15th April 2021, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete...

Oh really?????

arthwollipot · 15th April 2021, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Oh really?????

Nobody's journey is complete. Not until their last moments.

Pixel42 · 15th April 2021, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Oh really?????

You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs.

Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con".

Caroline13 · 16th April 2021, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs.

Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con".

Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th April 2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Pixel42 · 16th April 2021, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Guess you have to say something.

No, I could just let you wallow in your ignorance. Instead I take the time to try to educate you, as fruitless as it appears to be, because I'm a nice person.

Thor 2 · Yesterday, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...

Good to hear.

The incidence of folk leaving the RCC is, of course, the subject matter of this thread, and it is interesting to have ex Catholics sharing their stories. Can you tell us the reason, or reasons, for leaving?

Was your path to an enlightened atheist status via a number of other obstacles? Did you stumble over other varieties of Christianity on the way, and some other faith malarky as well? The 30 more years to leave "all religion" would be interesting to read about.

I had two childhood friends of Catholic families and was intrigued by the way the families operated. In one of these, my friend's elder sister was the religious police, keeping others in line. I didn't perceive this kind of thing in the family of my other friend.

One of my friends left Catholicism behind for some Protestant faith. He seemed do be a bit of a nutter about his new found Christianity. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Catholics leave the church and embrace another variety of Christianity. I suspect the number would be low as Catholicism is so different.

16th March 2021, 02:33 PM	#1961
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Actually, IIRC at least for the Catholics it's not even that. A blessing is pretty much just expressing a wish that God helps you. So technically, even when some guy goes "bless you" when you sneeze, yeah, that's actually a blessing. On the other hand, whether God actually listens or not, that's a whole different issue. Saying that "god works through the priest" makes it sound like there's some guarantee that it actually works. There is none. The priest asks God to do it, and that's pretty much all that happens through the priest. From there, it's up to God. Are there differences? At the very least priests are supposed to be better at it than laypersons. And use a different benediction formula. Bishops and the pope can use a different formula again, namely the "episcopal blessing." And then the pope himself is entitled to a yet different spell... err... formula. It would stand to reason that since some people are holier to God than others, God would be more inclined to listen to them. After all, at the very top would be actual saints, who can outright do intercession. And again, they have different spells... err... formulas, by rank, so you'd expect them to work differently. The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless. And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

16th March 2021, 02:43 PM	#1962
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Err yes I believe that's what I was saying: "I ponder over the power, punch, and potency of a blessing. Surely the power and potency of the blessing by a Pope is superior to that of a mere priest, as is the punch to send it over a distance, and number of souls." More or less, yes. I was answering to arthwollipot, not to you.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

16th March 2021, 02:47 PM	#1963
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	Originally Posted by arthwollipot The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless. I'm not entirely sure, tbh. But then, they never made it clear how many D6 you roll for a bishop's benediction, vs a regular priest's Originally Posted by arthwollipot And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear. Yes, well, the guys travelling like 1000 miles to come get blessed by the pope when he visits, probably don't really know that it's just placebo
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

23rd March 2021, 04:31 PM	#1964
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état. This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

23rd March 2021, 07:23 PM	#1965
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by Thor 2 The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état. This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC. Without looking it up, I suspect you'd have to go back several hundred years for the last time it had happened. The closest they've come recently is splinter sects.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

23rd March 2021, 08:54 PM	#1966
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,603	Meanwhile: Here in Canada the Archdiocese of St. John's, N&L is selling properties to pay the Mount Cashel Orphanage victims. Apparently they have lots of it. Some history and background here: https://globalnews.ca/news/7710267/d...-mount-cashel/ I see no word anywhere that the "Mother" church is contributing a penny.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

24th March 2021, 02:44 PM	#1967
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	Thank's for the link Gord. Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

27th March 2021, 04:17 PM	#1968
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	Vatican in the Red? Quote: Vatican City: Pope Francis has ordered cardinals to take a 10 per cent pay cut and reduced the salaries of most other clerics working in the Vatican in order to save jobs of employees as the coronavirus pandemic has hit the Holy See’s income. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/...25-p57dur.html I suspect more grumbling in the ranks.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

27th March 2021, 04:41 PM	#1969
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Thank's for the link Gord. Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them. Well, it's not like they had much choice in the first place, tbh. If you really thought that someone is going to hell for ever, if they don't get into specifically your flavour of religion, would you want to go "yeah, no, maybe don't send your kids to our churches after all, we have some real perverts"? Like, between a little abuse now and an eternity of torment, which would you believe is the lesser evil, assuming you absolutely believed those premises to be true. And it's not just a matter of modern theology, sad to say. Jesus himself said it: "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matt 18:6, copied from Mark 9:42) Note that "stumbling" here is as in, stumbling in their faith. It's not even the only place where basically from the start the message is 'get them while they're young and dumb', but yeah, it does say pretty explicitly what Jesus thinks of you if you get in the way of that. So, yeah, if you think that covering it up is helping not lose more kids from your church, it's not just a matter of pragmatism to do so, but, quoth Dr Evil, "The power of Christ compels you!" Mind you, I'm not approving of it, but just saying: I can understand how that follows from the whole illogical belief system. If you really believe that Jesus is real, he's your Lord, your salvation literally depends on obeying him absolutely and without questioning, and you have a direct order from him to never do anything that would lose more children converts... yeah, you do the maths
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 27th March 2021 at 05:02 PM.

27th March 2021, 04:44 PM	#1970
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

27th March 2021, 07:14 PM	#1971
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,603	Originally Posted by HansMustermann And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want Yup. And I'm not addicted to quoting Voltaire. I can quit later. Quote: Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est en droit de vous rendre injuste. Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. François-Marie Arouet (21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778), most famous under his pen name Voltaire, was a French writer, deist and philosopher.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

28th March 2021, 03:36 AM	#1972
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	Indeed. Though I'd say it's not even someone else making you unjust. You can get YOURSELF to do the greatest injustices, if they follow logically from those absurd premises. That's basically why I say that religion (and quite a few non-religious doctrines too) are a bad influence.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 28th March 2021 at 03:41 AM.

13th April 2021, 03:56 PM	#1973
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions. https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/ Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too. I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys. Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard. Last edited by Thor 2; 13th April 2021 at 04:26 PM.

13th April 2021, 04:09 PM	#1974
Carlotta Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 496	There are young boys in most schools or service positions. Religious, or not. Religion just adds authority.
	Last edited by Carlotta; 13th April 2021 at 04:10 PM.

13th April 2021, 08:22 PM	#1975
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,522	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions. https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/ Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too. I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys. Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example. Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

13th April 2021, 08:50 PM	#1976
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America? I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted prior to 9am.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

14th April 2021, 01:11 AM	#1977
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,638	Originally Posted by Thor 2 ~~Well how about that.~~ The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself to generally be seen as a vehicle for eradicating child abuse in the community. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions. https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/ Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too. I know nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access to a never-ending supply of young boys. Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required to join the monks for a period of time. It is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example. Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America? Originally Posted by arthwollipot I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted before 9 am. I have fixed Thor 2's (and arthwollipot's) typos and grammar errors in the above quotes for the benefit of people who have trouble understanding writing that contains such minor errors. Here is a quote from the above link Quote: At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.” I note there is nothing specific in what was said.
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14th April 2021, 01:27 AM	#1978
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by rjh01 Here is a quote from the above link Quote: At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.” I note there is nothing specific in what was said. Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7 1-5
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

14th April 2021, 01:35 AM	#1979
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,842	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7 1-5 Now burn the witch, I want to get home before supper!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th April 2021, 01:55 AM	#1980
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7 1-5 It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite. See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.) I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think?
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 14th April 2021 at 01:56 AM.

14th April 2021, 05:47 AM	#1981
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,842	Originally Posted by HansMustermann It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite. See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.) I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think? Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th April 2021, 04:25 PM	#1982
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	Originally Posted by Darat Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count! Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge?
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

14th April 2021, 08:13 PM	#1983
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,603	OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

14th April 2021, 08:17 PM	#1984
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge? No, it means that only God has the power to judge.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

15th April 2021, 04:36 AM	#1985
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 18,276	It also means that for a supposed omniscient God, Jesus sure is dumber than a brick. Almost all his recipes for how to behave are horribly wrong, at least if you're not expecting the world to end anyway before you reap what you sow.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

15th April 2021, 04:44 PM	#1986
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,696	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort. Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however? As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was. Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today. Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

15th April 2021, 07:28 PM	#1987
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,603	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however? As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was. Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today. Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times. Their faith will protect them from the words of Satan. Quote: 1 Peter 5:8-9 8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

15th April 2021, 08:14 PM	#1988
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 532	It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...
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15th April 2021, 08:30 PM	#1989
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by Caroline13 It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's... That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete...
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

15th April 2021, 09:26 PM	#1990
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 532	Originally Posted by arthwollipot That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete... Oh really?????
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep it Simple

15th April 2021, 09:26 PM	#1991
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,061	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Oh really????? Nobody's journey is complete. Not until their last moments.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

15th April 2021, 10:51 PM	#1992
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,175	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Oh really????? You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs. Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con".
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

16th April 2021, 12:29 PM	#1993
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 532	Originally Posted by Pixel42 You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs. Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con". Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something.
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16th April 2021, 12:51 PM	#1994
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,603	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something. Pot. Kettle. Black.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

16th April 2021, 01:38 PM	#1995
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,175	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Guess you have to say something. No, I could just let you wallow in your ignorance. Instead I take the time to try to educate you, as fruitless as it appears to be, because I'm a nice person.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett