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Old 16th March 2021, 02:33 PM   #1961
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, IIRC at least for the Catholics it's not even that. A blessing is pretty much just expressing a wish that God helps you. So technically, even when some guy goes "bless you" when you sneeze, yeah, that's actually a blessing.

On the other hand, whether God actually listens or not, that's a whole different issue. Saying that "god works through the priest" makes it sound like there's some guarantee that it actually works. There is none. The priest asks God to do it, and that's pretty much all that happens through the priest. From there, it's up to God.

Are there differences? At the very least priests are supposed to be better at it than laypersons. And use a different benediction formula. Bishops and the pope can use a different formula again, namely the "episcopal blessing." And then the pope himself is entitled to a yet different spell... err... formula.

It would stand to reason that since some people are holier to God than others, God would be more inclined to listen to them. After all, at the very top would be actual saints, who can outright do intercession. And again, they have different spells... err... formulas, by rank, so you'd expect them to work differently.
The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless.

And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear.
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Old 16th March 2021, 02:43 PM   #1962
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Err yes I believe that's what I was saying:

"I ponder over the power, punch, and potency of a blessing. Surely the power and potency of the blessing by a Pope is superior to that of a mere priest, as is the punch to send it over a distance, and number of souls."
More or less, yes. I was answering to arthwollipot, not to you.
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Old 16th March 2021, 02:47 PM   #1963
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The differences are only in the ritual used to perform the blessing. The Catholics are big on ritual. I believe that the purported effects would be the same regardless.
I'm not entirely sure, tbh. But then, they never made it clear how many D6 you roll for a bishop's benediction, vs a regular priest's

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And of course we all know that there's no real effect. Just to make that clear.
Yes, well, the guys travelling like 1000 miles to come get blessed by the pope when he visits, probably don't really know that it's just placebo
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Old 23rd March 2021, 04:31 PM   #1964
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The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état.

This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 07:23 PM   #1965
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Australian ran a story about Francis having pressure put on him from the Right inside the Church. I wonder if they are heading for a coup d'état.

This wouldn't be unprecedented of course given the chequered history of the RCC.
Without looking it up, I suspect you'd have to go back several hundred years for the last time it had happened. The closest they've come recently is splinter sects.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 08:54 PM   #1966
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Meanwhile:

Here in Canada the Archdiocese of St. John's, N&L is selling properties to pay the Mount Cashel Orphanage victims. Apparently they have lots of it.

Some history and background here: https://globalnews.ca/news/7710267/d...-mount-cashel/

I see no word anywhere that the "Mother" church is contributing a penny.
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Old 24th March 2021, 02:44 PM   #1967
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Thank's for the link Gord.

Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them.
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Old 27th March 2021, 04:17 PM   #1968
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Vatican in the Red?

Quote:
Vatican City: Pope Francis has ordered cardinals to take a 10 per cent pay cut and reduced the salaries of most other clerics working in the Vatican in order to save jobs of employees as the coronavirus pandemic has hit the Holy See’s income.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/...25-p57dur.html


I suspect more grumbling in the ranks.
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Old 27th March 2021, 04:41 PM   #1969
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thank's for the link Gord.

Interesting read. It seems that the church clergy, having tried to deny liability unsuccessfully, now want to be seen to be in favour of compensating the abused, with God smiling on them.
Well, it's not like they had much choice in the first place, tbh. If you really thought that someone is going to hell for ever, if they don't get into specifically your flavour of religion, would you want to go "yeah, no, maybe don't send your kids to our churches after all, we have some real perverts"? Like, between a little abuse now and an eternity of torment, which would you believe is the lesser evil, assuming you absolutely believed those premises to be true.

And it's not just a matter of modern theology, sad to say. Jesus himself said it: "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matt 18:6, copied from Mark 9:42) Note that "stumbling" here is as in, stumbling in their faith.

It's not even the only place where basically from the start the message is 'get them while they're young and dumb', but yeah, it does say pretty explicitly what Jesus thinks of you if you get in the way of that.

So, yeah, if you think that covering it up is helping not lose more kids from your church, it's not just a matter of pragmatism to do so, but, quoth Dr Evil, "The power of Christ compels you!"

Mind you, I'm not approving of it, but just saying: I can understand how that follows from the whole illogical belief system. If you really believe that Jesus is real, he's your Lord, your salvation literally depends on obeying him absolutely and without questioning, and you have a direct order from him to never do anything that would lose more children converts... yeah, you do the maths
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Old 27th March 2021, 04:44 PM   #1970
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And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want
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Old 27th March 2021, 07:14 PM   #1971
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
And yeah, I'm not addicted to quoting the Bible. I can quit any time I want
Yup. And I'm not addicted to quoting Voltaire. I can quit later.

Quote:
Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est en droit de vous rendre injuste.

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.

François-Marie Arouet (21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778), most famous under his pen name Voltaire, was a French writer, deist and philosopher.
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Old 28th March 2021, 03:36 AM   #1972
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Indeed.

Though I'd say it's not even someone else making you unjust. You can get YOURSELF to do the greatest injustices, if they follow logically from those absurd premises. That's basically why I say that religion (and quite a few non-religious doctrines too) are a bad influence.
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Old 13th April 2021, 03:56 PM   #1973
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Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/


Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.
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Old 13th April 2021, 04:09 PM   #1974
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There are young boys in most schools or service positions. Religious, or not. Religion just adds authority.

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Old 13th April 2021, 08:22 PM   #1975
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well our about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself, so as to be seen as a vehicle, for eradicating child abuse in the community generally. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/


Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I how learn nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access do a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required do join the monks for a period of time. I is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.
Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?
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Old 13th April 2021, 08:50 PM   #1976
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?
I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted prior to 9am.
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Old 14th April 2021, 01:11 AM   #1977
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well how about that. The Catholic Church is now manoeuvring itself to generally be seen as a vehicle for eradicating child abuse in the community. Quite a change, from being seen as one of the main offenders. It would have helped the public's perception of the church, in this light, if they didn't drive for strenuously to get out of paying up for past transgressions.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/13/...buse-together/


Religious leaders of other faiths are jumping in too.

I know nothing about the degree of abuse within the Muslim community. Perhaps it is minimal as Imams do not have access to a never-ending supply of young boys.

Disturbingly the above is not the case in the Buddhist world. Small boys are required to join the monks for a period of time. It is considered essential in traditional Thai society for example.
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Can you translate the above two idioms out of Australian English for the benefit of those of us in North America?
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think those are probably typos, excused for being posted before 9 am.
I have fixed Thor 2's (and arthwollipot's) typos and grammar errors in the above quotes for the benefit of people who have trouble understanding writing that contains such minor errors.

Here is a quote from the above link
Quote:
At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.”
I note there is nothing specific in what was said.
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Old 14th April 2021, 01:27 AM   #1978
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here is a quote from the above link
Quote:
At an April 8-10 online symposium with religious representatives from around the world, Pope Francis expressed his hope that together, religions can fight “this profound evil.”
I note there is nothing specific in what was said.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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Old 14th April 2021, 01:35 AM   #1979
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

- Matthew 7 1-5
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Old 14th April 2021, 01:55 AM   #1980
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

- Matthew 7 1-5
It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite.

See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.)

I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think?
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Old 14th April 2021, 05:47 AM   #1981
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It probably would help if Jesus himself wasn't a complete hypocrite about that. Well, and generally an all around hypocrite.

See, YOU are not supposed to judge, but HE has no problems saying stuff like: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33, though a part of a larger piece of hate speech against the Pharisees. Edit: and not the only place where that happens either, I might add.)

I dunno, man... going all the way to calling someone a brood of vipers and telling them they're going to hell, seems kinda like judging, don't you think?
Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count!
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Old 14th April 2021, 04:25 PM   #1982
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah but he’s god so it doesn’t count!

Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge?
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Old 14th April 2021, 08:13 PM   #1983
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OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort.
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Old 14th April 2021, 08:17 PM   #1984
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hum ...... we can assume from this that's is godlike to judge?
No, it means that only God has the power to judge.
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Old 15th April 2021, 04:36 AM   #1985
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It also means that for a supposed omniscient God, Jesus sure is dumber than a brick. Almost all his recipes for how to behave are horribly wrong, at least if you're not expecting the world to end anyway before you reap what you sow.
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Old 15th April 2021, 04:44 PM   #1986
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
OK guys. Can you please stop trying to make sense of the Bible? It's not worth the effort.

Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however?

As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was.

Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today.

Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times.
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Old 15th April 2021, 07:28 PM   #1987
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Making sense of the Bible may be futile indeed to a more or less rational mind. To the faithful however?

As we all know there have been far more words written to try and rationalise Biblical nonsense than that written about about any other manuscript. The Catholic Church being responsible for much of it. This continues to the present day. A visit to the website "Catholic Answers" gives you a good example of this. So much is written as explanation for some few words in scripture, one gets the impression, that the aim is to make the reader forget what the script in question was.

Those of us who have tried to talk about the logical absurdity of the Bible to the faithful, share the experience, of have hearing our sound argument falling on deaf ears. Where faith has a sound hold, reason can rarely penetrate. Sometimes I have seen momentary doubt in the eyes of Protestant faithful, when they are confronted with the fact, that Catholicism has shaped the faith they hold dear today.

Of course the Catholic Church only recently had to bother with explanations to the lay folk, as Bible reading was denied them. The priest was the mouthpiece of God, and sometimes he spoke in Latin. I bet Catholic Clergy today wish they were back in those times.
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Old 15th April 2021, 08:14 PM   #1988
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It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...
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Old 15th April 2021, 08:30 PM   #1989
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...
That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete...
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Old 15th April 2021, 09:26 PM   #1990
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's a great start. But your journey is far from complete...
Oh really?????
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Old 15th April 2021, 09:26 PM   #1991
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Oh really?????
Nobody's journey is complete. Not until their last moments.
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Old 15th April 2021, 10:51 PM   #1992
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Oh really?????
You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs.

Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con".
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Old 16th April 2021, 12:29 PM   #1993
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You do seem to have held onto some beliefs as objectively unevidenced and irrational as religious beliefs. My guess is that you are more emotionally invested in them than you were in your religious beliefs.

Plus, of course, you have some anecdotes that appear to support them. Many religious people have anecdotes they use to justify their beliefs too. "I was ill, I prayed to God, I got better, therefore God exists" is the same faulty reasoning as "I was ill, I had a medical treatment, it didn't work, therefore all modern medicine is a worthless con".
Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something.
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Old 16th April 2021, 12:51 PM   #1994
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Judge Judge Judge, you are good at that one. Guess you have to say something.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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Old 16th April 2021, 01:38 PM   #1995
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Guess you have to say something.
No, I could just let you wallow in your ignorance. Instead I take the time to try to educate you, as fruitless as it appears to be, because I'm a nice person.
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Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM   #1996
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
It took me into my early 30's to leave the R.C. church and another 30 yrs to leave all religion, I got off the "fence" of it all when I was in my mid 60's...

Good to hear.

The incidence of folk leaving the RCC is, of course, the subject matter of this thread, and it is interesting to have ex Catholics sharing their stories. Can you tell us the reason, or reasons, for leaving?

Was your path to an enlightened atheist status via a number of other obstacles? Did you stumble over other varieties of Christianity on the way, and some other faith malarky as well? The 30 more years to leave "all religion" would be interesting to read about.

I had two childhood friends of Catholic families and was intrigued by the way the families operated. In one of these, my friend's elder sister was the religious police, keeping others in line. I didn't perceive this kind of thing in the family of my other friend.

One of my friends left Catholicism behind for some Protestant faith. He seemed do be a bit of a nutter about his new found Christianity. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Catholics leave the church and embrace another variety of Christianity. I suspect the number would be low as Catholicism is so different.
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