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18th June 2018, 05:06 PM | #201 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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18th June 2018, 05:07 PM | #202 |
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18th June 2018, 05:15 PM | #203 |
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I have nothing but disgust for apartheid Africa. The Dutch going into the earliest regions of apartheid S Africa is not an analogy for the Baltic Germans moving a few miles north west from Germany (then the Holy Roman Empire, made up of numerous individual states, rather like early USA). The release of Nelson Mandela was one of the greatest events of modern times, together with bringing down the Berlin wall. However, it is not a case of 'the goodies wear white hats' and the 'baddies wear black'. I brought up the topic of Nelson Mandela with a Zulu-speaking friend of mine from Zimbabwe and she was very muted. I discovered later that her peoples were opposed to the ANC - some kind of ethnic differences. So you can't assume "All Africans like Nelson Mandela" or that "All Europeans support Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia". There are all sorts of cultural and political tensions going on all the time. |
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18th June 2018, 05:17 PM | #204 |
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Yes it did. Around 1200 - that's the period when the German crusaders conquered the Baltics - 6,000 men was a huge army. For instance, the 1288 Battle of Worringen, one of the largest battles in the European Middle Ages, which pitted several dukes, counts and bishops against each other, comprised 4,200 against 4,800 soldiers.
He didn't, and he lived around 1700 so why do you skip 500 years? During the 30 Years War, 1618-1648. Again, you're discussing the 30 Years War. Mercenaries only came into existence at the end of the 15th Century (especially Swiss mercenaries). Before that, local rulers (e.g., counts) had only their own vassals (knights) as cavalry and their serfs as foot soldiers. Kings relied on what their vassals, i.e., their counts and dukes, provided. In 1200, it was not a matter of "afford", armed service was an obligation of vassals as well as serfs. The word "parish" can also refer to secular divisions. So why have you been denying that then? You called the German crusaders the "original settlers", in other words, the land was empty before they came. The "Dark Ages", an outdated term, refers to the Early Middle Ages, from ca. 500 to ca. 1000. Why do you keep jumping through history? And no, you're lying when you claim that Europe was a mass of tribes. Western (continental) Europe had been territorially divided into gaus, the predecessors of counties, at least since the time of Charlemagne. Rincewind has explained how Estonia, at the time of the Baltic crusades, consisted of 15 counties - wiki even has a map of them - each with their own government and subdivisions. Why do you deny this? So the Estonians and Latvians should be compensated for the land that the crusaders stole from them? |
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18th June 2018, 05:34 PM | #205 |
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18th June 2018, 05:36 PM | #206 |
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Those do not look like ancient names, but rather, modern names applied in retrospect. In addition, some appear to be Finnish names (Läänemaa = West Land, Saaremaa = Island land (saari= island) Harju, means 'ridge' and 'Viromaa' literally means 'Estonia Land' (viro= Finnish for Estonia). This is truly remarkable, as Finnish did not become a written language until Mikael Agricola translated the Bible in C16. Whoops! In addition, if you look up what makes up the landmass of In addition, there was no such thing as a 'civil' parish in those days, meaning, 'secular'. The whole rationale for the many wars in the region was the fight for hegemony of either Catholic or Protestant and each individual country making up the original Holy Roman Empire had to choose which they would be and if you were not of that faith you were expected to convert or leave. |
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18th June 2018, 05:37 PM | #207 |
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What complete non-sequitur. First of all, I never called the Baltic Germans Nazis. They were oppressors of the indigenous population, the Estonians and Latvians, but that does not make them Nazis. In fact, they were shafted by the Nazis because they got compensation in a part of Poland or they were interned in Germany proper. And Himmler saw to it that, after the German troops occupied the Baltics, most of them couldn't return either.
And the fact that one lady from East Prussia - not a Baltic German as we're discussing here - was outspokenly anti-Nazi does not translate to all of them either. |
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18th June 2018, 05:52 PM | #208 |
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There's nothing remarkable about that:
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So what? Is there some special injunction against owning forests or some such? They obviously were called differently in Estonian:
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18th June 2018, 06:02 PM | #209 |
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The Normans arrived in England in 1066. So, if we were to throw out all those of Norman origin (perhaps a French name, or their ancestor was one of William the Conqueror's* barons) does that make it OK if we refuse to compensate them or give them their land back? Of course not. In 1066 there were many communities in Britain already. But once the Normans settled, would it have been fair to have kicked them out 800 years later? Or say, no, you have to compensate the original Britons and Celts, first? However, the Baltic Germans were kicked out in living memory, not >1,000 years ago. *"William "the Conqueror", king of England is your 28th great uncle." - geni.com |
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18th June 2018, 06:20 PM | #210 |
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That does not address my post.
Why did you smirk about the names of those Estonian counties? Did you really not know that Estonian and Finnish are related languages? Why did you make that remark about large forests? And why did you again jump through centuries to try make a failed point? For someone who calls themselves "informed", you really make a hash of history. |
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18th June 2018, 06:22 PM | #211 |
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No it doesn't. History starts when there are written records, so goes back at most to ca 3,500BC in Mesopotamia where the earliest script was developed. In my country, history only starts when the Romans arrived. Everything before that is prehistory.
Studying ancient human remains is the job of paleontologists, not archaeologists (who study ancient culture), and carbon dating is unsuited for anything older than ca. 30Ka. The Neanderthals went extinct ca. 30Ka. What has that to do with what happened 1,000 years ago? That's not what Craig said. He said that those old king lists are fanciful myths. No records beyond circa AD900, and for most people, the Vikings represent something ancient an exotic, yet, hello? they only go back to AD900 for pete's sake. So what was happening on earth 1,500 years ago? Was it all destroyed? Or did it never exist, anyway? Amundsen actually was first on the Southpole. And returned to tell it. Why do you call that all BS? Some did, others lived sedentary. You can't just treat all Native Americans as one group. That you do that is another sign of the racism underlying your arguments. They did so ca. 14 Ka. What has that to do with their lifestyle ca. 1500? |
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18th June 2018, 06:23 PM | #212 |
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18th June 2018, 06:35 PM | #213 |
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18th June 2018, 07:05 PM | #214 |
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19th June 2018, 02:29 AM | #215 |
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19th June 2018, 02:35 AM | #216 |
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That's a proverb going back to Ovid, "exitus acta probat". It's somewhat erromeously attributed to Machiavelli (whom I believe Stalin read). Machiavelli said in The Prince that when evaluating a prince's actions, no higher authority exists, and therefore "si guarda al fine", "one must consider the result".
Machiavelli actually used a closer paraphrase in 'Livy', "Though the act condemn the doer ... when the end is good, the act may be excused", though this is in a very specific context (viz., establishing a constitution). |
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19th June 2018, 02:47 AM | #217 |
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Ragtag? AFAIKScottish Gallowglass mercenaries were considered some of the finest troops money could buy.
Mercenary is a bit misleading here: the typical "man-at-arms" could be anything from a foreign mercenary to a nobleman or well-off commoner owing service as tribute to his liege. |
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19th June 2018, 05:00 AM | #218 |
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Hi Vixen,
Nothing you mention here justifies the crusaders stealing the land from it's owners. And - as DDT has so eloquently mentioned - Most of your data is from a long time after so isn't relevant. Also, I agree with your comment - the Estonians and Livonians already had land rights... Oh - and what I hope is a helpful correction - the Nazi Party abbreviation in German was NSDAP. NSPD kinda sounds like the New Smyrna Police Department. |
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19th June 2018, 06:33 AM | #219 |
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I have no idea what you mean with that.
Is distance really your only argument here? The German merchants who founded Riga came from Bremen, that's over 1,000 km as the crow flies, much longer if you sail (around Jutland). By comparison, the distance from Amsterdam to Cape Town is 9,700 km as the crow flies. The Dutch settlers of Cape Town came there to set up a way station for ships passing on their way to the East Indies. What is different about that than the German merchants who founded Riga? Is the difference in distance all you've got? If you can't give a sound argument why one is different than another, your claimed "disgust" for apartheid South Africa sounds quite hollow. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He founded uMkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the ANC, which carried out many attacks against the legitimate government of South Africa. That's what got him in prison. |
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19th June 2018, 06:38 AM | #220 |
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19th June 2018, 06:50 AM | #221 |
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I have read a couple of different translations of The Prince. The first one I read agrees with you and sates that "The ends justifies the means" is a lazy translation. It also points out that translating renaissance era Italian political jargon is not a straight forward task.
The other one I read just gives the lazy translation. |
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19th June 2018, 06:58 AM | #222 |
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Literally everything in this sentence is factually incorrect.
1. Writing developed about 3000 bce, so about 5000 years ago. History didn't develop before then because, well, no writing = no history. 2. Australopithecines, the earliest bipedal hominid that we know of, go back about 3.5 million - 5 million years ago. 250 million years ago is dinosaur territory. 3. Carbon dating is useless beyond a couple tens of thousands of years. |
19th June 2018, 07:11 AM | #223 |
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Damn, I missed that one. Tip for Vixen: look up the meaning of words before you use them. Thank you for the compliment! And yes, Vixen's chronology is more messed up than that of Anatoly Fomenko, Herbert Illiig or Albert Delahaye. Each of those at least formed something internally consistent. Another tip to Vixen: look up the date of each and every historical fact you mention. I'll henceforth assume every jump through the centuries is deliberate and intentional. After all, you claim yourself to be "informed" and you've done "research" after this and that. And yet you can't even produce correctly the name of the Nazi Party. |
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19th June 2018, 07:39 AM | #224 |
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Can we wager on Vixen's reply to this? (*)
The answers we got thus far varied between: 1) the Germans were the original settlers. IOW, there were no Balts. 2) the Balts were "living like beasts in the field". IOW, they were subhuman and you may subjugate and enslave them like you corral cattle. 3) the Balts worshipped heathen gods like Odin, Perkele and Baba. IOW, the Germans brought the right religion and thus were in the right to enslave them and take away their land. 4) the Balts were only living in tribes. IOW, the Germans brought law and order and it was right and proper to enslave them and take away their land. Oh, and all those answers are wrong. I wonder, though, why it wasn't okay for the Dutch settlers of the Cape to take uninhabited land and to bring law and order and the right word of God to the unwashed negroes living there? (*) I know we can't. Some of us, including me, did so with another poster years ago and those threads got sent to Deep Storage. |
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19th June 2018, 11:24 AM | #225 |
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There are those who still remember 1944-46.
There is a Karelian who married into my family. He did well in Finland as a CEO of a hotel chain, and living in a salubrious part of Helsinki. But yet his heart yearns for his childhood home, and he is still bitter about being made to leave. Another dear family friend told me although she left as a child, she still dreams of what she considers home. The descendants are Finns, so they probably have no great ambition to 'return' one way or another. People do not realise that losing your home land is like a bereavement. |
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19th June 2018, 12:13 PM | #226 |
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19th June 2018, 12:53 PM | #227 |
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I never said anything of the sort. I said that the genealogies of Pictish and Gaelic kings were largely fictional, or at all events weren't historically verifiable. Picts and Gaels are not, however, mythical, and I have never said they were.
Now it's my turn to correct you. Modern humans have not roamed the earth for 250 millions of years, but for somewhat less than a thousandth of that time. 250 million years ago our ancestors were reptiles. For much or most of their existence, modern humans - the ones like the people who live now - were confined to sub Saharan Africa, and didn't roam the rest of the earth. They had no written languages, and didn't practice agriculture until much more recently. Please also note, from Radiocarbon datingWP ... the oldest dates that can be reliably measured by this process date to around 50,000 years ago, although special preparation methods occasionally permit accurate analysis of older samples |
19th June 2018, 01:02 PM | #228 |
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19th June 2018, 01:04 PM | #229 |
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19th June 2018, 01:13 PM | #230 |
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19th June 2018, 02:06 PM | #231 |
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What point are you trying to make to "fanatical Darwinists" in arguing that radio carbon dating only gives accurate figures for a few tens of millennia? Do they respond to you by correctly stating that there are other procedures which can date things back to the beginning of the solar system?
But yes you are frequently in the wrong, and dismissive shrugs will not make you more correct, I am afraid. The fact that the earliest modern human remains are too remote in time to be dated by radioactive carbon ... why is that a problem for Darwinists, whether fanatical or otherwise? |
19th June 2018, 02:27 PM | #232 |
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19th June 2018, 08:22 PM | #233 |
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Accepting, for the moment, that that "m" instead of "k" was indeed a typo, and that you're being truthful in knowing that radiocarbon dating goes back only a few tens of thousands of years, why did you claim that the age of mankind (i.e., of homo sapiens sapiens) had been established by radiocarbon dating?
The bigger issue, though, is that you completely ignore the issue that you misrepresented Craig's post about Pictish royal lineages, an issue that Craig and earlier me raised. I think you owe him an apology for that. |
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19th June 2018, 08:23 PM | #234 |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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19th June 2018, 08:24 PM | #235 |
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20th June 2018, 12:03 AM | #236 |
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Alexandra IMHO was just as culpable. The "kids" - well, the two youngest were minors. The three oldest were the same age as the kids who were sent off to die in the trenches, i.e., young adults. Their mother - again IMHO - infantalized them, but they were not children. IIRC, early on in the revolution Alexandra and her children were offered the chance to leave Russia, but declined. |
20th June 2018, 12:29 AM | #237 |
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The US southwest and west has an abundance of pre-Columbian pictoglyphs in the desert areas - it seems the people who lived there hundreds of years ago wanted to make their marks.
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Even if one defines "history" as "what's been recorded", US history does go back further then that, back to the Spanish settlements in Florida (and if you count Puerto Rico, even earlier). There's a building in Santa Fe, New Mexico, that's been used as a government building almost continuously since 1608 (there was this thing called the Pueblo Uprising in the late 1600s). If you can find a copy where you live, I recommend Charles Mann's book 1491 for a glimpse of current thinking on the pre-contact Americas. |
20th June 2018, 02:34 AM | #238 |
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Precious few now.
The youngest (who really won't remember it) are in their 70s. And so, for the sake of the few who perceive Karelia et al as their home, you would displace a million people for whom it is their home, and has been for several generations. Sorry...no. That is how to get into a situation where this crap never ends. |
20th June 2018, 04:41 AM | #239 |
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I believe that what I said was that we have no records other than the oral histories past a certain point and that most of the kings of Ireland and Scotland always traced their ancestry back to a hero of myth or a god.
translation for those who don't wish argue against a strawman - we can't be certain of the ancestry of anyone when there are no records. Second there are historical records that exist prior to 900 in the British Isles - what we do not have are complete records. Literacy outside of the clergy was not common and not every petty king was the patron of a monastic settlement who would record all the births and deaths.
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Your lack of basic historical knowledge is quire troubling.
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And there were actually quite a few First Nations that lived in permanent settlements with agriculture. We can start with the Iroquois and Hurons, then there were the Ohio River cultures, Anazai, Haida, Tlingit, Nootka, Inca, and the Central American cultures. In fact, the majority of First Nation (population wise) were living in permanent settlements at the time of first contact with Europeans. By depicting the First Nations as nomadic savages Europeans were able to justify dispossessing them of their lands. Much like you've done with the Germans bring civilization to the Balts....
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We'll start with the Spanish settlers. They were neither political or religious dissidents - they were considered to be loyal Spaniards, given that they were part of the new aristocracy supplanting the ruling classes of the first nations that were conquered. This was how the Spanish got people to come over - be a landowner and experience social mobility. Now the American settlers - given that the first colonies in North America were set up in hopes of finding gold like the Spanish did in Central America the British certainly weren't going to send political dissidents. While colonies such as Virginia and Maryland were notoriously Royalist after the Civil War, they did not get a large influx of Royalist immigrants - simply because it was a long trip by boat - Royalist refugees had a much shorter trip to France if they needed to get out of England. The Puritans who had come to N. America to practice that unique form of religious freedom known as "We want the freedom to practice our own faith in the way we see fit and to make sure that everyone else can practice their faith in the way that we see fit." About 1/6th of the male population went back to England during the Civil War and a significant portion of them stayed to take advantage of England under Puritan rule. Those sent to the Americas as punishment didn't get sent to North America - they got sent to the Barbados, Jamaica and Bermuda to work the sugar plantations. Which was quite often a death sentence. |
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20th June 2018, 04:53 AM | #240 |
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Measuring civilization relative to other civilization is challenging. And realistically is dependant on the value of the person doing the evaluating.
Both the Gauls and the Inca had well established population centres, high levels of agriculture, and well developed artistic sensitivities. The Gauls were iron workers, however, that is more due to the ease of getting iron in NW Europe relative to the Andes than to technical ability (given the level of metalwork displayed with gold and silver). Both were non-literate cultures. The Incans did have a higher level of social organization than the Gauls did - as demonstrated by a unified political structure and the system of labour used to develop high altitude agriculture, travel and trade, as compared to the far less cohesive political/social structure of the Gauls. Realistically, the Incan culture was probably on a higher level than the Gauls. |
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