|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
9th April 2015, 02:46 PM | #1 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
A new argument pro Near Death Experiences
I have a new argument pro NDE's:
According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the tunnel, the light, the peaceful feeling, the words 'it's not your time yet' etcetera. The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes etc. All must be involved. Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences. To have an OBE, to see the tunnel, then the light, then the words: 'it's not your time yet' assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain. It must be a big coincidence that the dying brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity. It's also about the ontological status of 'the Light' and 'the Tunnel' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 02:50 PM | #2 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
|
You do know this is not only explicable as people fill in their own blanks with what they know, NDEs in other cultures match their own cultural expectations.
Phenomenology of Near-death Experiences: A Cross-cultural Perspective
Quote:
Quote:
I doubt you'd find, "it's not your time yet" the same across cultures. |
9th April 2015, 02:53 PM | #3 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Yes, but 'the light', 'the OBE', the tunnel and the lifereview are very common.
in terms of probability: The probability of that happening (this specific sequence of patterns of electric activity in the brain when different parts are involved) purely by chance is less than one in a billion. (when you count the amount of neurons and the probability of exactly these patterns of electric activity in the brains of hundreds of people). |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 03:08 PM | #4 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
|
I don't think you have a good understanding of the neurobiology of the brain. The tunnel and light are physiological processes. The people one sees and things one hears are from one's memory, like dreaming, but with similar patterns of people's memories.
If you fall asleep with the TV on, you sometimes fit the audio into what you are dreaming. I've found that many times. One strong memory I have from childhood was dreaming I was approaching a barn door with something scratching on the other side of the door. I woke up and my dog was scratching on my bedroom door to come in and sleep on my bed until I got up. People's dreams sometimes work to make sense of stimuli it continues to receive. If you see a tunnel of light, given circumstances that likely caused the event, it makes logical sense people would interpret the light as heaven and dream about things and people they expect to be there. |
9th April 2015, 03:16 PM | #5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Maybe you know more about the brain then me. But different regions must be involved when this NDE is happening. Occipital lobes, verbal cortex, etc.
The brain must fire a specific network of neurons. So, it's a whole sequence of firing networks. The chances are low that it is almost exaclty this sequence of networks. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 03:21 PM | #6 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
|
Please show your work. How did you arrive at this number? Also, please define what you mean by "purely by chance".
ETA: Also, let's say that this probability will happen one in a billion -- with seven billion people on the planet, wouldn't this mean that your rare occurrence happened seven times? |
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
|
9th April 2015, 03:29 PM | #7 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
No, I have no 'work', The Norseman. But I studied something about the brain. i know that different parts of the brain must be involved for such complex experiences like NDE's, according to modern neuroscience.
Hundreds of people have the same sequence of combinations of networks firing during an NDE? This is statistically improbable that they all experience an OBE, a tunnel, a light, this peaceful feeling, the words: it's not your time yet etc. This sequence of experiences is a specific sequence of firing networks in the brain. This is statistically improbable that all these people have almost exactly the same sequence of combinated patterns of firing networks in their brains. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 03:51 PM | #8 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
You also have no new argument; this is basically still the same one you used before, based on incredulity that so many people who have NDEs have the same vague experiences- your "tunnel of light" and so forth- that are adequately explained by shared expectations. The only difference here is that you've focused your incredulity a little more sharply on the brain, which you don't seem really qualified to dissect. And by doing that, you've really only undermined your own basic argument that there must be some commonality outside the brain to account for NDEs; after all, what's so incredible about the same basic brain structure in all humans undergoing the same process (of death) having occasionally similar results? Hundreds of people out of billions is statistical noise, not signal. Surely the extra-human commonality you seek would produce more than noise?
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
9th April 2015, 03:59 PM | #9 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
I disagree here. Most NDE's are very specific. The OBE, the tunnel, the light, the words: it's not your time yet. That's very specific.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
All people sleep at night. Therefore they must have the same kind of dreams. Non sequitur.
Quote:
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:01 PM | #10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
|
A tunnel, for example, can be explained by peripheral vision loss, common with various brain injuries. What are the odds that so many people with brain injuries have similar symptoms? Similarly, a feeling of euphoria can be explained by the brain releasing various feel-good chemicals, like a "runner's high,"only much greater. Again, what are the odds that so many runners report the same sensations?
These things are just how our bodies typically work, or fail to work, in certain situations. |
9th April 2015, 04:03 PM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
The only thing I can say from personal experience is that having been there, I saw nothing, heard nothing, and felt nothing.
I was also very glad to eventually open my eyes. |
9th April 2015, 04:04 PM | #12 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Do you have proof for that? Many NDE'ers are talking about a tunnel they go through. The experience of going through this tunnel cannot be explained by peripherical vision loss. How do you explain the experience of going through the tunnel and being one with the light with your peripherical-vision-loss theory?
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:06 PM | #13 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:19 PM | #14 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
9th April 2015, 04:21 PM | #15 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
Dreams involve many parts of one's brain: those involved in seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. They seem very much like real experiences to the dreamer.
Are dreams therefore real experiences? |
9th April 2015, 04:24 PM | #16 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
If that, to you, counts as specificity proving a specific commonality, then you must believe that things like Lord Of The Rings, Moby Dick, the Bible, and any number of other fictions were all written by the same author.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
9th April 2015, 04:33 PM | #17 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Turingtest, do you think that there are not many different networks of the brain active to produce this sequence of OBE, tunnel-experience, light experience, feelings, understanding words in a meaningful way?
Other argument: these experiences are not chaotic at all, what you expect from an injuried dying brain.A dying brain cannot produce such harmonious experiences full of meaning and very vividly. It's a contradicition. A good working brain can produce these beautiful experiences. But not a dying damaged brain. From a dying brain you expect chaotic hallucinations. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:37 PM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
|
9th April 2015, 04:41 PM | #19 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
BStrong, why do you ignore the possibility of memory loss? You don't know that.
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:46 PM | #20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
As has been pointed out to you in other threads on this topic, near-death experiences are, in fact, proposed by their advocates to really be death experiences. If they are death experiences, then you are swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat: you have proposed that a dying brain could only hallucinate chaotic experiences, whereas a dead brain would be able to experience a coherent multi-sense whole. And come back to tell of it.
Even if you are proposing that somehow, near death, we will glimpse what death itself would be like, you are proposing that a near-death, dying brain would be able to sense all of this as a coherent whole, but would not be able to hallucinate the same thing. Doesn't this strike you as a problem? |
9th April 2015, 04:47 PM | #21 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
|
Not my original idea, but folks a lot smarter than me explain it:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kh...ed=0CCsQ6AEwAw or http://www.csicop.org/si/show/darkne...els_and_light/ From the second link: "Oxygen starvation can cause both tunnel and darkness experiences. The reason for this lies in the structure and functioning of the blood supply of the retina. The macula is the optical center of the retina; it has the greatest blood supply, while the flow of blood to the retina decreases with distance from the macula according to the inverse square law. Yet the oxygen consumption of each part of the retina is much the same, so oxygen starvation will cause failure of peripheral vision before causing total visual failure. Indeed, experiments with oxygen starvation in human volunteers prove this fact. This is why tunnel experiences occur only in NDEs caused by oxygen starvation, while toxins and poisons cause a “pit experience” before causing failure of vision." |
9th April 2015, 04:51 PM | #22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 04:54 PM | #23 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
9th April 2015, 04:57 PM | #24 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
9th April 2015, 05:00 PM | #25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
Is this thread going off into the recovered memories school of thinking? Maybe I just need the right therapist to guide me along?
Someone can tell me that the reason I didn't have what folks are looking for in an NDE because I'm not a believer, but nobody has ever accused me of not having a good memory. My experiences, and really the only thing one can go on here is their individual experience, is that I went out, I came back, that's it. I know other folks that have reported getting the E ticket ride experience when they checked out. I have absolutely no reason to dispute their account and they have no reason to dispute mine. |
9th April 2015, 05:03 PM | #26 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
|
|
9th April 2015, 05:15 PM | #27 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
Even if your understanding of biology and psychology was right, you're still making the logical mistake of only counting the hits and ignoring the misses. I died. My heart stopped. The whole system was down for a solid minute. I was on an EKG and have the strip to prove it. I did not experience anything. It wasn't even like sleep. It was just nothing. Many people have had the same experience. What percentage of people in near-death states have classic near-death experiences? If you can't answer that, you can't go any further. |
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
10th April 2015, 01:06 AM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
You have a blind spot in both of your eyes. So do I. So does everyone. You are not conscious of it as such because your brain simply makes up what it guesses SHOULD be there on the basis of what is close to that blind spot and fills in the blank. So does mine. So does everyone's. It is trivially easy to demonstrate this.
Given that we know that the brain will invent things in the visual field out of whole cloth and that it is common to everyone on the planet, why should the commonality of NDE experiences be any surprise at all? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
10th April 2015, 05:19 AM | #29 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,789
|
|
10th April 2015, 06:05 AM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
What's amazing to me is that everyone I know can read these words in the same specific way. It's almost like, even with all the complexities of the brain in play, there's some underlying shared experience with reading text. As if similar input produces a similar reaction across all my English speaking friends.
Quite the mystery. It is apparent to me that there must be some outside connection, across brains and across the variety of human beings, that allows this similarity in response to emerge. I call it the "unexplained phenomenon of literacy." It's just not possible for all these people to share the same experience. Eerie, really. |
10th April 2015, 06:35 AM | #31 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
10th April 2015, 06:51 AM | #32 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 666
|
How can all these pilots subjected to high g-forces have the same experiences when they have passed out? Shouldn't their experience be chaotic and unpredictable? http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html Strangely the experiences are quite similar to one another, and oh my, also quite similar to what is reported as NDE! How interesting! I predict you will not be convinced. |
10th April 2015, 07:16 AM | #33 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
10th April 2015, 07:18 AM | #34 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
Have you considered the fact that perhaps these words are added after the fact via religious beliefs and expectations ?
Of course you haven't. Speaking of ignoring possibilities...
Quote:
Of course you haven't. |
10th April 2015, 07:22 AM | #35 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
10th April 2015, 07:26 AM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
10th April 2015, 07:41 AM | #37 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
10th April 2015, 07:59 AM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
It is even worse than the blind spot itself: our eyes see only a small central spot in high definition. The visual image is projected by an imperfect lens upside down on a curved, irregular retina. There are blood vessels between the lens and the image. We are constantly moving our eyes to bring different parts of the image on our one high-definition spot. Our brains piece this all together, spatially and temporally correct it, adjust the color balance, invent parts to fill-in, ignore other parts, and patch it all into what we think we see as a single clear image. As far as we can tell, this happens in much the same way in almost everyone.
We already had the conversation as to whether NDEs are the same in different cultures. They are not. And anyway, why would an NDE be expected to show what things are in a DE (Death Experience)? But I guess if one really wants to believe that one's soul goes on after death, then one believes whatever helps. |
10th April 2015, 08:00 AM | #39 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 692
|
The whole thing about NDEs being a glimpse of a afterlife makes no sense. All studies by pro supernatural claimants including kubler-ross and moody have poor methodologies. This anecdote fits with our claptrap so we will record it, this goes against our claptrap so we will ignore it.
I also strongly feel that children who claimNDEs are coached by there parents. I read one child's claim of having met the souls of aborted children-he was six so I don't think he made it up but had it made up by his pro life father. The idea of duelism-that there is a part of you extant from your mind-is one of the oldest ideas in the psychology of humans but actual science(in this case neuroscience) tells us that the brain is a purely physical organ. It should also be noted that accuaratly determining if aNDE took place at the short period of death or just before or after is extremely difficult. The claim that NDEs are common also falls flat when you bear in mind the vast majority of people who are brought back do not have this experience. Any sane appraisal of NDEs must conclude that while there is a small possibility that a interesting neurological process is taking place it is not in any way supernatural. |
10th April 2015, 08:07 AM | #40 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,230
|
This new argument in the OP sounds like another "too cool to just be chemicals and brain" claim. I might argue just as easily that it is not cool enough to be a god related phenomenon. Why not a little more imagination than just the same old "tunnel with a light at the end"? Why not a very elaborate jewel and precious metal encrusted bridge with lasers and flashing strobes or those super bright LED flashlights and a neon sign a thousand feet high flashing "HEAVEN"? Or a bunch of supernovae spelling out "Paradise, turn right". After all, this is the path to the creator of the universe! The tunnel thing sounds like an abandoned subway line for Pete's sake!
A little tunnel with a white light is exactly what I would expect to be the common denominator of oxygen deprivation or GLok if it were purely physiological. For the creator of Man and giver of life, I'd expect a tad more choreography. I'm not sure that conflating NDEs and OBEs is helping the argument either. Do atheists find any interest in the NDE concept, or is this just something that has been co-opted by theists to help them with that "faith" thing, which is not supposed to need evidence? |
Thread Tools | |
|
|