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Old 24th August 2015, 10:35 AM   #481
Donn
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think it proves physics to be wrong, just incomplete.
Science proves physics incomplete. Story at eleven.

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I have no evidence, no one does, but it doesn't mean it's not there.
This should be called the argument from Cloud Nine.

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Your wrong in what you think you know about the dying process. They haven't found a definite stop point and this continues to be a legal issue for those that want the option for euthanasia or when to remove life support.
Excellent fishing. Of course, the truth is that there is no such thing as death. It goes like this:
As you "die" you slip into a valley that is an asymptote which never reaches actual "death". Because time is relative, the more you "die" the longer each moment lasts. In effect, you live an eternity of experiences in that valley — and it never ends.


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Why would I believe something that can't be proven? I rely more on my sense of intuition rather than any other faculty.
Yes, finger painting is much the same.
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Old 24th August 2015, 11:36 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... If some kind of existence continues ...
You have already decided that it exists.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... What I want will be irrelevant either way.
...
You want that 'continuing of some kind of existence'. It's relevant for this thread and it makes you defensive.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... Why would I believe something that can't be proven? ...
Because that something which can't be proven is what you want to have.
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Old 24th August 2015, 11:50 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think it proves physics to be wrong, just incomplete.
Incomplete? It means that our entire understanding of biology and the human brain, and the very nature of the universe and physical stuff IS WRONG.

Do you even know what your claim is?

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In most things I was wrong but not in all of them.
You mean, some of your claims you are not willing to discard. That's different.

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I have no evidence, no one does, but it doesn't mean it's not there.
I've already addressed this: this is a logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance. It's sophistry of the first order.

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Your wrong in what you think you know about the dying process.
You are in no position to tell me this.

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They haven't found a definite stop point
Of course they have. You're not being honest with yourself about the state of science on this issue. If your heart stops, your brain doesn't get oxygen, and you are dead. If that state is permanent, then you cease to be.

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As for not wanting to die, if I'm dead I won't know the difference.
Then what's this nonsense about the afterlife?

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If some kind of existence continues I'm sure the challenges will be greater than what we experience here on earth during this "life" time.
"Sure"? You just said there's no evidence and no way to perceive the afterlife. How can you be "sure" of anything? Don't you see that you're making stuff up as you go?

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I rely more on my sense of intuition rather than any other faculty.
One of mankind's greatest failings. You shouldn't be proud of it. You should seek to change that.
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Old 24th August 2015, 12:19 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
.... Of course, the truth is that there is no such thing as death. It goes like this:
As you "die" you slip into a valley that is an asymptote which never reaches actual "death". Because time is relative, the more you "die" the longer each moment lasts. In effect, you live an eternity of experiences in that valley — and it never ends.
....
I know you're kidding, but this idea is surprisingly prevalent -- for example, the end of American Beauty, and sprinkled throughout the fiction of David Foster Wallace -- a troubled soul, but a smart guy.

My intuitions tell me it ain't so.
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Old 24th August 2015, 01:46 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
I know you're kidding, but this idea is surprisingly prevalent -- for example, the end of American Beauty, and sprinkled throughout the fiction of David Foster Wallace -- a troubled soul, but a smart guy.
Drat! Another original sketch for the bin.
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Old 24th August 2015, 01:52 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not arguing that the NDE isn't a product of physiology. I think you are ignoring the fact that the sudden spike occurs after blood flow ceases and glucose is not available to fuel any kind of brain activity. I agree with the provisional interpretation.
I think you are missing the fact that the eeg "spike" lasts 60 seconds and then stops because of the lack of glucose...
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Old 24th August 2015, 03:37 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
... It goes like this:
As you "die" you slip into a valley that is an asymptote which never reaches actual "death". Because time is relative, the more you "die" the longer each moment lasts. In effect, you live an eternity of experiences in that valley — and it never ends.
...
Sounds like Zeno's Valley of Death.
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Old 24th August 2015, 03:50 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Drat! Another original sketch for the bin.
I liked it, but not enough to invest...
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Old 24th August 2015, 04:21 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... I have no evidence, no one does, but it doesn't mean it's not there.
The problem is that the evidence we do have rules it out. If something of us (other than rotting meat, or ash, artefacts, and the memories of others) survives bodily death, you run into the interaction problem - what is it that interacts with our brains & bodies, yet is non-physical and can persist the information that could make up our post-mortem selves?

I'm pretty sure I've said this here before, but the Standard Model of physics tells us that at everyday human scales only protons, neutrons, electrons, the electromagnetic field, and gravity are relevant; there are no other forces or fields that are strong enough or long range enough to interact significantly with our brains & bodies. The electromagnetic field can't do it, so the overwhelming evidence tells us it's not possible. Sean Carroll explains why here (at 33 mins): The Higgs Boson & the Fundamental Nature of Reality

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I rely more on my sense of intuition rather than any other faculty.
Sadly, intuition is demonstrably unreliable - definitely not to be relied on outside of our areas of expertise. See Daniel Kahneman's book 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' for the full, entertaining, low-down.
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Old 24th August 2015, 06:20 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Excellent fishing. Of course, the truth is that there is no such thing as death. It goes like this:
As you "die" you slip into a valley that is an asymptote which never reaches actual "death". Because time is relative, the more you "die" the longer each moment lasts. In effect, you live an eternity of experiences in that valley — and it never ends.
Without some kind of concrete finish line it's hard to say if having a sudden surge in brain activity means anything, or not. In other words how dead is dead really?
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Old 24th August 2015, 06:24 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
You have already decided that it exists.


You want that 'continuing of some kind of existence'. It's relevant for this thread and it makes you defensive.


Because that something which can't be proven is what you want to have.
I freely admit that I believe in eternal life. Defensive? As far as I can tell, I think I've been pretty well behaved, I've avoided a warning so far. Well maybe it's what I think I want, it might not be the everlasting peace that religions preach about.
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Old 24th August 2015, 07:17 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Incomplete? It means that our entire understanding of biology and the human brain, and the very nature of the universe and physical stuff IS WRONG.

Do you even know what your claim is?
I don't think so. If your happy with the "wall stops here" and you never take a sledge hammer to break through to see what's on the other side then that's your choice.



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You mean, some of your claims you are not willing to discard. That's different.
If you have already decided that there is no eternal life then I could say the same about your stance. There is no difference,



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I've already addressed this: this is a logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance. It's sophistry of the first order.
Basing conclusions on limited data is sophistry whether you are skeptical of the claims or not.



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You are in no position to tell me this.
I apologize, I don't know what your personal experience is with death, I was referring to research on death and dying.

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Of course they have. You're not being honest with yourself about the state of science on this issue. If your heart stops, your brain doesn't get oxygen, and you are dead. If that state is permanent, then you cease to be.
That's the legal definition, it might not be as easy to determine as once thought:

http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elemen...or-brain-death

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Then what's this nonsense about the afterlife?
I personally believe in eternal life but if that's not the case I won't be alive to be disappointed if I'm wrong. It's hard to have a stake in a big "what if" when you have no control over the issue.

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"Sure"? You just said there's no evidence and no way to perceive the afterlife. How can you be "sure" of anything? Don't you see that you're making stuff up as you go?
I'm just guessing like everyone else here.

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One of mankind's greatest failings. You shouldn't be proud of it. You should seek to change that.
I don't see it that way, how limited would our civilization be if everyone dealt with just the facts all the time? It takes a certain amount of intuition to link those facts into some kind of idea whether it's right or wrong.
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Old 24th August 2015, 08:15 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
The problem is that the evidence we do have rules it out. If something of us (other than rotting meat, or ash, artefacts, and the memories of others) survives bodily death, you run into the interaction problem - what is it that interacts with our brains & bodies, yet is non-physical and can persist the information that could make up our post-mortem selves?

I'm pretty sure I've said this here before, but the Standard Model of physics tells us that at everyday human scales only protons, neutrons, electrons, the electromagnetic field, and gravity are relevant; there are no other forces or fields that are strong enough or long range enough to interact significantly with our brains & bodies. The electromagnetic field can't do it, so the overwhelming evidence tells us it's not possible. Sean Carroll explains why here (at 33 mins): The Higgs Boson & the Fundamental Nature of Reality

Sadly, intuition is demonstrably unreliable - definitely not to be relied on outside of our areas of expertise. See Daniel Kahneman's book 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' for the full, entertaining, low-down.

If all protons are black holes and interconnected via an interface between information and the surface area at the event horizon then it would be a different story according to this guy. I'm not sure I follow this well enough to be able to discuss it intelligently. Tell me what's wrong with this idea.

Now, to uncover the the actual mass of the proton, its gravitational mass, we divide the number of Planck-circles on the proton surface with the number of PSUs within the proton volume (4.72 × 1040 / 1055), which results in 5.91 × 1014. This number is the exact mass needed for the proton to fulfill the Schwarzschild condition of a black hole. Thus we have found the holographic gravitational mass of the proton (its Schwarzschild mass), only by using Planck units and geometry alone, without involving Schwarzschild´s equations or the field equations of relativity at any time. In other words, we have described both gravity and mass as a relation between information to surface area, and this is has been achieved algebraically, through quantification of the vacuum energy by a physical constant, the Planck unit. The formula is universal and can be applied to all astrophysical systems, thus we have, for the first time, a functional mathematical description of quantum gravity!

By this novel approach to physics we may study the foundations of the entire universe simply by studying the geometric properties of a single proton.


http://holofractal.net/quantum-gravi...ographic-mass/
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:13 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post





I apologize, I don't know what your personal experience is with death, I was referring to research on death and dying.


Yes you do. Posting? Not dead. Dead? Not posting.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:28 PM   #495
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I think you're reading that too literally.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:50 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think you're reading that too literally.
Of course I am, but at the same time, it's inherently and always true that nobody can ever provide real evidence for life after death because dead people tell no tales. You can go on and on about what it feels like to be almost dead, and imagine whether it means anything, and imagine whether or not the experiences of people who have not actually died indicate anything, but a miss is as good as a mile. You're alive until you're dead, and then you're not.

The arguments for considering life after death all remain essentially the same as other mystical and supernatural arguments. The premise is that once you have expressed an idea, it must be taken seriously even if no evidence supports it, since it cannot be disproven. The only difference between eternal life and the reward of virgins, or harps, robes and pink clouds, is that some inventions are less offensive to our residual reason than others.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:57 PM   #497
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I guess we'll all find out in the end.
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Old 24th August 2015, 11:08 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
If all protons are black holes and interconnected via an interface between information and the surface area at the event horizon then it would be a different story according to this guy. I'm not sure I follow this well enough to be able to discuss it intelligently. Tell me what's wrong with this idea.

Now, to uncover the the actual mass of the proton, its gravitational mass, we divide the number of Planck-circles on the proton surface with the number of PSUs within the proton volume (4.72 × 1040 / 1055), which results in 5.91 × 1014. This number is the exact mass needed for the proton to fulfill the Schwarzschild condition of a black hole. Thus we have found the holographic gravitational mass of the proton (its Schwarzschild mass), only by using Planck units and geometry alone, without involving Schwarzschild´s equations or the field equations of relativity at any time. In other words, we have described both gravity and mass as a relation between information to surface area, and this is has been achieved algebraically, through quantification of the vacuum energy by a physical constant, the Planck unit. The formula is universal and can be applied to all astrophysical systems, thus we have, for the first time, a functional mathematical description of quantum gravity!

By this novel approach to physics we may study the foundations of the entire universe simply by studying the geometric properties of a single proton.


http://holofractal.net/quantum-gravi...ographic-mass/
It's a crank website with made-up physics?

It's been knocking around for around ten years now, (as far as I know). Here's a blog looking at the main issues. Sorry it's not an official refutation, but the original idea/paper never made it past self-publishing, so it never got peer-reviewed. As an indication, the first problem with the 'protons as black holes' idea is that it means that the mass of a single proton would be over 800 million tons, and each proton would radiate 450 million watts and have a temperature of 140 billion Celsius.

Other than that, it looks like a completely plausible idea.
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Old 25th August 2015, 01:33 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Without some kind of concrete finish line it's hard to say if having a sudden surge in brain activity means anything, or not. In other words how dead is dead really?
What relevance has the surge in brain activity for the claimed survival of consciousness?
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Old 25th August 2015, 01:36 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I freely admit that I believe in eternal life. Defensive? As far as I can tell, I think I've been pretty well behaved, I've avoided a warning so far. Well maybe it's what I think I want, it might not be the everlasting peace that religions preach about.
Yes you're busily defending your belief; defensive.
It's what you want, you have clearly decided such.
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Old 25th August 2015, 01:45 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I guess we'll all find out in the end.
Until such time, you are actively defending your desired outcome.

The 'reality' of the afterlife lies only before death, in the minds of the believers who feed that belief by endlessly talking about it and forcing that belief with an almost pathological need onto their environment.

No sign of the afterlife anywhere else.
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Old 25th August 2015, 02:27 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think so.
One more indication that you don't know what you're talking about.

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If your happy
*You're

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with the "wall stops here" and you never take a sledge hammer to break through to see what's on the other side then that's your choice.
See, you are assuming that there's something on the other side. Why?

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If you have already decided that there is no eternal life then I could say the same about your stance. There is no difference,
No, you couldn't. My "stance" is based on centuries of observation and research and solid theory. Yours is based on what you'd want to be true.

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Basing conclusions on limited data is sophistry whether you are skeptical of the claims or not.
That's just nonsense.

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That's the legal definition
No, that's the only definition.

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I'm just guessing like everyone else here.
Don't try to put all of us on the same level as you. A LOT of people have been very patient with you, explaining what you're wrong. Stop trying to pretend that we're all equally wrong when it's clearly not the case, because that would be dishonest, and you're not a dishonest person, are you?

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I don't see it that way, how limited would our civilization be if everyone dealt with just the facts all the time?
"Limited"? Facts are ALL THERE IS. The rest is stuff you make up. Useful for entertainment, but not to repair your leaking roof.
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Old 25th August 2015, 02:28 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I guess we'll all find out in the end.
And again you're assuming your conclusion. If you're wrong, we WON'T find out.

And you ARE wrong.
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Old 25th August 2015, 08:51 AM   #504
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Here we go again

Jodie says, "I personally believe in eternal life...."

Whoops, hold it right there. Have you given any more than passing thought to the implications of eternal existence? Do you really, truly want to live FOREVER? Until the heat death of the universe? And on and on after that? Can you imagine the horror of not being able to die? A poster here in a similar thread once observed that "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable inferno before the first instant of eternity had passed."

Trouble is, "unendurable" has no meaning in such a case. The being that lives forever must experience infinite existence, without escape. Can you think of that glibly? Really?

I mentioned a similar thread. In fact, over the years this business of the horror of immortality has come up quite a few times, as it must eventually in any thread about life after death.

We aren't made for infinite things; finally, we need our sleep. You'd better go on your shankbones and pray to Jesus that there's death.
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Old 25th August 2015, 09:00 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
If all protons are black holes and interconnected via an interface between information and the surface area at the event horizon then it would be a different story according to this guy.
It certainly would be different. Proton-size black holes would evaporate so fast you could only detect them by the radiation of their decay. 'If things were different, then things would be different...'; profound or tautologous? you be the judge.

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I'm not sure I follow this well enough to be able to discuss it intelligently. Tell me what's wrong with this idea.
You probably find it hard to follow because it's complete nonsense. Protons don't have a 'surface', they're a tiny jiggling bundle of valence quarks, held together with the binding energies of virtual antiquarks and gluons continually appearing and disappearing in the 'background'.

It's worth getting a basic grasp of what the empirical evidence and the consensus model tells us about such things before trying to interpret the ramblings of pseudo-scientific sites like that.
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Old 25th August 2015, 09:02 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Jodie says, "I personally believe in eternal life...."

Whoops, hold it right there. Have you given any more than passing thought to the implications of eternal existence? Do you really, truly want to live FOREVER? Until the heat death of the universe? And on and on after that? Can you imagine the horror of not being able to die? A poster here in a similar thread once observed that "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable inferno before the first instant of eternity had passed."

Trouble is, "unendurable" has no meaning in such a case. The being that lives forever must experience infinite existence, without escape. Can you think of that glibly? Really?

I mentioned a similar thread. In fact, over the years this business of the horror of immortality has come up quite a few times, as it must eventually in any thread about life after death.

We aren't made for infinite things; finally, we need our sleep. You'd better go on your shankbones and pray to Jesus that there's death.
I agree. What afterlife we may enjoy is social. Time to get busy.
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Old 25th August 2015, 04:58 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
It certainly would be different. Proton-size black holes would evaporate so fast you could only detect them by the radiation of their decay. 'If things were different, then things would be different...'; profound or tautologous? you be the judge.

You probably find it hard to follow because it's complete nonsense. Protons don't have a 'surface', they're a tiny jiggling bundle of valence quarks, held together with the binding energies of virtual antiquarks and gluons continually appearing and disappearing in the 'background'.

It's worth getting a basic grasp of what the empirical evidence and the consensus model tells us about such things before trying to interpret the ramblings of pseudo-scientific sites like that.
That's why I asked, I remeber my chemistry professor explaining that the the "balls" used to describe atoms were not the actual way that the particles looked. I was having a hard time trying to visualize a ball that wasn't a ball with a surface.
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Old 25th August 2015, 05:01 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Jodie says, "I personally believe in eternal life...."

Whoops, hold it right there. Have you given any more than passing thought to the implications of eternal existence? Do you really, truly want to live FOREVER? Until the heat death of the universe? And on and on after that? Can you imagine the horror of not being able to die? A poster here in a similar thread once observed that "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable inferno before the first instant of eternity had passed."

Trouble is, "unendurable" has no meaning in such a case. The being that lives forever must experience infinite existence, without escape. Can you think of that glibly? Really?

I mentioned a similar thread. In fact, over the years this business of the horror of immortality has come up quite a few times, as it must eventually in any thread about life after death.

We aren't made for infinite things; finally, we need our sleep. You'd better go on your shankbones and pray to Jesus that there's death.
I never had it pictured as a walk in the park but boredom would make me wish I was dead.
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Old 26th August 2015, 04:28 AM   #509
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In eternal Heaven, Earth is reality tv; you ever-dead, the actors; channel without end.
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Old 26th August 2015, 05:12 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Sounds like Zeno's Valley of Death.
Oho! I meant to give a little to this one, but it took sooooo long to reach my keyboard!
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Old 26th August 2015, 03:27 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I never had it pictured as a walk in the park but boredom would make me wish I was dead.
You haven't a particle of evidence that an afterlife exists, but you draw pictures of it anyway. That's not even belief, that's fantasizing.

But do you take my point about the insupportable nature of eternity?
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Old 26th August 2015, 04:09 PM   #512
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I do indeed, depends on how eternal life pans out. It's not a guarantee of happiness, it just might be "being", like in a coma. That isn't quality of life to me.
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Old 26th August 2015, 04:12 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Oho! I meant to give a little to this one, but it took sooooo long to reach my keyboard!
You actually reached it? Fascinating.
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Old 26th August 2015, 04:32 PM   #514
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So basically "There's an afterlife because I really, really want there to be."

Okay. There's already a roughly 9 billion post long thread about that with exactly as much evidence presented.
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Old 26th August 2015, 05:15 PM   #515
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I still say there is eternal life because we are finite beings who can't see beyond what our eyes and technology see. That may or may not be a good thing.
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Old 26th August 2015, 05:27 PM   #516
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Okay and since you provide no evidence for it what you have is, at best, at most, wishful thinking.

Combined with a lot of the same bog standard anti-intellectual claptrap that Jabba's been doing for about 10,000 years now.
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Old 26th August 2015, 05:51 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I do indeed, depends on how eternal life pans out.
You're getting ahead of yourself again.
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Old 26th August 2015, 05:52 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I still say there is eternal life because we are finite beings who can't see beyond what our eyes and technology see. That may or may not be a good thing.
I say atoms are moved by very small, beautiful fairies because we are finite beings who can't see beyong our own existence level.

See how easy it is to come up with wishful nonsense?
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Old 26th August 2015, 06:06 PM   #519
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Jodie has several dragons in her garage.
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Old 26th August 2015, 06:12 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jodie has several dragons in her garage.
I wish I had a dragon, but I'm stuck with squirrels. Cute, but not quite as awesome.
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