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Old 26th August 2015, 06:18 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I still say there is eternal life because we are finite beings who can't see beyond what our eyes and technology see. That may or may not be a good thing.
So we're finite beings except when we're not? Why shouldn't a finite being die?
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Old 26th August 2015, 08:29 PM   #522
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Your body dies, and with it your consciousness as an individual person. That part that animates you, because it's not just enough to live on a ventilator, leaves to join the rest of you.

I think of it as being a hand with many fingers. The fingers are us as individuals but we are connected to the hand as one. When the finger is removed, the life continues as the hand. That hand remembers what the finger was like, kind of like phantom limb pain, but it isn't the finger.

That's how I visualize it and freely admit it's a belief based on different types of research related to neurology, physics that I'm not sure I totally understand, and philosophy that I intuitively put together to come up with my idea/belief.
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Old 26th August 2015, 09:43 PM   #523
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I don't of course agree. I think we are connected to the world, and at a more local level to other people, when we live. When we die, we are, we hope, remembered. Something of what we've done, if it was worthwhile, is added to society by our having done it. But we are remembered, not reabsorbed. When I see a falling star, what remains in me is the vision, not the star. Phantom pain comes from within. We do not get the finger back.
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Old 26th August 2015, 10:26 PM   #524
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No, we don't get the finger back, sad as that is.
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Old 27th August 2015, 04:56 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
You actually reached it? Fascinating.
This is possible because the pixels of reality are qwertyuiop.
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Old 27th August 2015, 07:35 AM   #526
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Last edited by dlorde; 27th August 2015 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Gazumped...
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Old 27th August 2015, 07:41 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That part that animates you, because it's not just enough to live on a ventilator, leaves to join the rest of you.
I recall you didn't answer this last time I asked, but as you say it's based on physics and neurological research, please explain what you mean by 'the part that animates you' and 'the rest of you', and what functions the latter element has, if, as you say, it's not your consciousness as an individual. If you're suggesting some kind of 'elan vital' or animism, I think you'll find that's contradicted by physics and neurology...

[it would also help if you indicated precisely which poorly understood physics and neurological research prompts your supposition, because it's can't be anything you've mentioned so far, as that's been explained to you.]
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Old 27th August 2015, 08:02 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
… please explain what you mean by 'the part that animates you' and 'the rest of you',
Och, who knows? She's (I assume) coming from admitted belief, so all she needs do is find shiny baubles of half-formed sciencish whimsy to glue to her gossamer cloud of candy floss and call it an argument.

Contradict it; shift. Negate it; slant. Reason it; feel.

It's chess with a pigeon.
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Old 27th August 2015, 08:05 AM   #529
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In a long-ago debate on the old forum, we managed to (sort of) agree that if you survived death and turned into some sort of immaterial soul living in eternity, you'd have to become either something much more than human -- or much less.

Dwelling in the house of the lord, forever twanging a harp, would rather reduce you to very little in the way of a conscious being.

OTOH, turning into some sort of super-dooper entity inhabiting the whole universe wouldn't be any better, because even if the universe is somehow infinite (we have no reason as yet to think so, but anyways) you'd still have to deal with the horror of eternity -- a prospect that a poster in that long-ago thread observed would drive the most powerful mind mad.

And then what? Madness for all eternity? Jodie? Hello?
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Last edited by sackett; 27th August 2015 at 08:08 AM. Reason: just me being jesuitical
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Old 27th August 2015, 08:34 AM   #530
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God forgets that she was plebeian, shod in cheap shoes upon rough earth, as she ascends to omnipresent unity with her forever selves. The pinnacle of expression is ever emitted — a cry to reach the quarks and shake the atoms on their loops: D'oh!
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Old 27th August 2015, 09:09 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I still say there is eternal life because we are finite beings who can't see beyond what our eyes and technology see. That may or may not be a good thing.

If we are FINITE beings, wouldn't that logically rule out our continued existence for eternity? Isn't eternity, by definition, infinite? Finite beings are also infinite beings, if I am following your logic correctly.
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Old 27th August 2015, 03:04 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Son of Inigo View Post
If we are FINITE beings, wouldn't that logically rule out our continued existence for eternity? Isn't eternity, by definition, infinite? Finite beings are also infinite beings, if I am following your logic correctly.
I think I brought that up somewhere above, but that does indeed seem like a contradiction, doesn't it?

I'm reminded of Anatole France, who said "the average man, who does not know what do do with his life, wants another one which lasts forever." Or the more modern variant by a mystery writer, Susan Ertz: "Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon."
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Old 28th August 2015, 02:12 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
...It's chess with a pigeon.
ROFL!

Please let me use that elsewhere
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Old 28th August 2015, 03:26 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
In a long-ago debate on the old forum, we managed to (sort of) agree that if you survived death and turned into some sort of immaterial soul living in eternity, you'd have to become either something much more than human -- or much less.

Dwelling in the house of the lord, forever twanging a harp, would rather reduce you to very little in the way of a conscious being.

OTOH, turning into some sort of super-dooper entity inhabiting the whole universe wouldn't be any better, because even if the universe is somehow infinite (we have no reason as yet to think so, but anyways) you'd still have to deal with the horror of eternity -- a prospect that a poster in that long-ago thread observed would drive the most powerful mind mad.

And then what? Madness for all eternity? Jodie? Hello?
It depends on where we are going and what we do with our life just like it does here. Since I have no way to really comprehend eternity it's hard to say, I just hope I'm not asleep or in a coma like state, then I couldn't see the point of being. I could be a human being here and a cock roach on another scale of being. I might already be a cosmic cock roach and not have sense enough to know it.
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Old 28th August 2015, 03:37 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Son of Inigo View Post
If we are FINITE beings, wouldn't that logically rule out our continued existence for eternity? Isn't eternity, by definition, infinite? Finite beings are also infinite beings, if I am following your logic correctly.
I should say our corporeal body is inhabited by an infinite spark of something that carries on after we die, like shedding skin after you've outgrown it.

I never really understood the concept of the trinity until I came up with my hand analogy. The father, the son,and the holy ghost; The hand is the father, the finger is the son, and the phantom limb pain when the finger dies is the holy ghost. They are all one but appear separate.
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Old 28th August 2015, 03:56 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I should say our corporeal body is inhabited by an infinite spark of something that carries on after we die, like shedding skin after you've outgrown it.
Uh huh.

Of course, there's still the matter of having absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe this is true.
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Old 28th August 2015, 06:37 PM   #537
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The way I see it , there isn't any reason it can't be a possibility. What I hope for is a life with meaning.
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Old 28th August 2015, 08:04 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I do indeed, depends on how eternal life pans out. It's not a guarantee of happiness, it just might be "being", like in a coma. That isn't quality of life to me.
In the long run heaven and hell will look the same.
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Old 28th August 2015, 08:09 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The way I see it , there isn't any reason it can't be a possibility.
Save the complete lack of evidence for anything that would make it even hypothetically possible.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What I hope for is a life with meaning.
Which is not dependent on the afterlife either way. Even if it were, the universe is under no obligation to be nice.
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Old 28th August 2015, 08:11 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The way I see it , there isn't any reason it can't be a possibility. What I hope for is a life with meaning.
Life is what you do from waking till sleeping, the "meaning of life" is a meaningless term, life simply is.
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Old 28th August 2015, 09:01 PM   #541
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I look at it in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When you have the basics covered then self actualization becomes important which gives life meaning.
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Old 29th August 2015, 02:35 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
ROFL!

Please let me use that elsewhere
Heh. Sadly, it's not my own, but use away!
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Old 29th August 2015, 06:21 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I look at it in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When you have the basics covered then self actualization becomes important which gives life meaning.
That's a pretty basic existential principle, I think, but producing meaning is not the same as receiving it.
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Old 29th August 2015, 02:04 PM   #544
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It's two different things, but if we are an eternal one, what do you suppose earthly living is supposed to be about with all the push me/pull me going on?
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Old 29th August 2015, 02:41 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It's two different things, but if we are an eternal one, what do you suppose earthly living is supposed to be about with all the push me/pull me going on?
What do you suppose supposing itself means? The idea that there is, or ought to be, a purpose at all is itself a supposition.
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Old 29th August 2015, 02:58 PM   #546
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I don't know, I don't believe in intelligent design the way creationists put it out there, but I have hard time thinking all of this was for nothing.
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Old 29th August 2015, 03:02 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't know, I don't believe in intelligent design the way creationists put it out there, but I have hard time thinking all of this was for nothing.
Once I see a bunny that looks like a cloud, I have a hard time not seeing it as a bunny. That doesn't mean it really does represent a bunny. Our brains naturally tend toward certain things, but that doesn't mean those things must be true. Wanting to believe life has meaning is something our brains naturally tend toward, which is why so many religions have spread so successfully.
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Old 29th August 2015, 04:32 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... all the push me/pull me going on?
This almost sounds like you are hoping from an escape from your apparent 'push me/pull me' experience of life.
Are you hoping for or looking forward to a better life after the one that you are in now?
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Old 29th August 2015, 05:30 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Once I see a bunny that looks like a cloud,...
And of course it's too late to edit that I meant a cloud that looks like a bunny.
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Old 29th August 2015, 07:30 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
And of course it's too late to edit that I meant a cloud that looks like a bunny.
One of those mistakes that one just reads right anyway so I would not have noticed. On the other hand, it's also true that when you see a bunny that looks like a cloud it is not a sign of rain.
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Old 29th August 2015, 07:55 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
And of course it's too late to edit that I meant a cloud that looks like a bunny.
I liked it the way you posted it the first time...
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:04 AM   #552
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I wandered lonely as a bunny.
It's getting rabbity out.
Bunny, the future is.

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Old 30th August 2015, 07:08 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I wandered lonely as a bunny.
It's getting rabbity out.
Bunny, the future is.

Bunny Shadow has the power to Bunny Cloud men's minds. Who knows what Bunnies lurk in the hearts of men?
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:23 AM   #554
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After life,
playing harps,
on bunnies.
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:35 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I wandered lonely as a bunny.
It's getting rabbity out.
Bunny, the future is.

Bye, baby Bunting,
Daddy’s gone a-hunting,
Gone to get a rabbit skin
To wrap the baby Bunting in.


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Old 30th August 2015, 07:49 AM   #556
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Demanding that the universe provide you personally with some sort of "meaning" is massively egotistical.
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Old 30th August 2015, 11:35 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Bunny Shadow has the power to Bunny Cloud men's minds. Who knows what Bunnies lurk in the hearts of men?
Bunny, bunny burning bright

In the forests of the night

What immortal hand or eye

Could frame thy fearful symmetry.
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Old 30th August 2015, 01:01 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
This almost sounds like you are hoping from an escape from your apparent 'push me/pull me' experience of life.
Are you hoping for or looking forward to a better life after the one that you are in now?
My life isn't perfect but I don't have any real complaints on a personal level. I was thinking of what you see on the news about terrorism, everybody thinks they are justified to feel the way they do. I don't think jihadist attacks are really about a belief in Allah, but about power. Religion is used as a motivator in those cases. If we are really all one the entire concept of religion is pointless much less any wars about it.

Last edited by Jodie; 30th August 2015 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 30th August 2015, 03:41 PM   #559
Slowvehicle
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Bunny, bunny burning bright

In the forests of the night

What immortal hand or eye

Could frame thy fearful symmetry.
When the clouds rained down their water

On the bunnies like they ought to

Did he smile, their damp to see?

Did he who washed the Lamb, wash thee?
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Old 31st August 2015, 04:23 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
My life isn't perfect but I don't have any real complaints on a personal level. I was thinking of what you see on the news about terrorism, everybody thinks they are justified to feel the way they do. I don't think jihadist attacks are really about a belief in Allah, but about power. Religion is used as a motivator in those cases. If we are really all one the entire concept of religion is pointless much less any wars about it.
People have to make do with the one real life. There is no evidence for anything else.
This is where it counts, nowhere else.

You yourself appear to feel justified with what you believe and pass on your conviction with a rather obsessive single mindedness .....
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