|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
7th September 2015, 01:23 PM | #601 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
7th September 2015, 02:49 PM | #602 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
7th September 2015, 02:52 PM | #603 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
Then I won't bother reading what I linked if it isn't applicable. Thanks, you saved me some time.
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
8th September 2015, 12:19 PM | #604 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,931
|
|
8th September 2015, 04:55 PM | #605 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
14th November 2015, 08:39 AM | #606 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Physicists are desperately searching for extra dimensions. And when people finally tell you that they experienced another dimension, you're biased and interprete these eyewitness testimonies in such a way that it is not something valid. That's called: being biased.
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
14th November 2015, 09:54 AM | #607 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
No. They have all the dimensions they need, and the conceptual space to which those multiple dimensions apply have nothing to do with mythical spatial dimensions at right angles to reality. Fringe theorisst do not use "dimension" the way physicists do.
Quote:
|
14th November 2015, 05:47 PM | #608 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
I think there's a difference between the sort of "extra dimension" that science may be able to objectively demonstrate and the sort that can only be subjectively "experienced" and witnessed to. Judgments of validity would depend on what you want the dimension to prove; you probably shouldn't mix what science can show with what you need the testimonies to believe in. No bias involved, just recognition of category error.
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
14th November 2015, 08:25 PM | #609 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
That's what I was getting at. When people try to explain an extraordinary experience as involving "another dimension" or a "higher dimension," that's a particular usage. It really only has that meaning in a new-age context -- especially the paradoxical "parallel dimension."
Physicists use "dimension" in any of several very well defined ways, none of which indicates some sort of alternate realm or mode of perception. It most often refers to a basis in a vectorized problem formulation. So it's quite unfair to try to make physicists somehow accountable to a blatantly amphibolistic claim. |
15th November 2015, 02:38 AM | #610 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 7,171
|
I looked that one up, and, not only did I not know what it means, I don't even understand the definition either!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibolic I am only a humble (albeit cosmic) yak: would you mind explaining this is layman's (or lay-yak's) terms? |
__________________
'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
|
15th November 2015, 03:51 AM | #611 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 05:58 AM | #612 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,838
|
I am pretty sure it means frog balls.
|
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov |
|
15th November 2015, 06:03 AM | #613 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
15th November 2015, 07:16 AM | #614 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
One needs evidence that the critic actually knows what they are talking about instead of regurgitating something that they've read, which isn't necessarily the latest research on the topic. It's an easy out for the critic to question motive when arguments like this reach an inevitable impasse. As I've said in the other thread, there is nothing fundamentally wrong in entertaining how life after death might exist. After rereading the research on NDE's and considering other sources, I tend to agree that the experience is strictly limited to what is going on as a result of a dying brain and not indicative of what awaits us after we lose our bodies. I still think that non corporeal conscious, or core consciousness, exists elsewhere outside of the body. The fact that there is no evidence for it at the moment doesn't concern me since we don't have physical evidence for 75% of what exists in the universe, or at least what should be there to make what we can actually see work. In no way do I ascribe to the Christian version of an afterlife such as pearly gates, angels playing harps, demons or devils, a giant man sitting on a throne judging us all, or that there is any kind of entity there waiting on our arrival. What I do think is that our consciousness/spirit/soul or essence coexists in other dimensions. In other words, you're meeting the rest of yourself when you die but I have no idea what form, or how that would happen, other than to visualize a being pulling something like an appendage back to the central body out of this level of reality. IN this concept, time would be irrelevant, and would allow for multiple experiences here in this reality. What you live through would depend on where "your" perception was focused in the moment. Whatever encompasses life after death it won't be like anything we could visualize no matter what version of faith you choose to follow. That said, I want to know why it bothers some of you to even consider the notion? It's almost as if the thought of it is frightening based on how hard you argue against the idea. So what is the problem if you start the debate stating that it's strictly speculation? Why all the handwaving on the skeptics part? |
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 07:45 AM | #615 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
This is my problem. in order to explain what I have in mind, I'm using the only terminology that I have to get the idea across. Soul/spirit/consciousness may all be separate things with different meanings here when in fact they may be terms that describe different aspects of a whole. I use the word "dimension" to describe a space that we can't perceive with our senses, or measure for the same reason, as equivalent to where the rest of our "consciousness" resides. That may not be an adequate descriptor or even accurate.
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 08:21 AM | #616 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
Yes Jodie, thanks, got it. Ad infinitum. Yolo. Etceterasaurus.
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
15th November 2015, 09:05 AM | #617 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
You engage in fantastical speculation about something of which you can not show or meaningfully argue that it actually did occur but have absolute certainty it did occur.
Hilite by Daylightstar .... of something which has not been shown to actually exist. |
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 09:08 AM | #618 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 10:14 AM | #619 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
No amount of lack of evidence can state unequivocally that it doesn't exist simply because scientists that are looking at NDE's are probably looking at the wrong thing, no one has decided definitively what constitutes consciousness, and multidimensional reality isn't testable at this point. It's a far cry from other woo topics, such as alternative medicine, where there is concrete evidence to refute the woo.
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 10:42 AM | #620 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
It doesn't need to. The persistent lack of evidence speaks for itself. If you'd want to change that, you'd need to provide proper evidence.
Fantastical speculation won't get you there. Consciousness appears to be an emergent property of the brain. There is no evidence that consciousness is brain independent or non corporeal in nature. 'Multidimensional reality' has not been shown to be a reality. |
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 10:43 AM | #621 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Shifting the burden of proof. As was pointed out to you earlier, that argument also justifies belief in leprechauns.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And vagary does not cure the basic problem in this claim. In fringe medicine one can say, "Eating this root will cure your cancer," and that's testable not only because we have the ability to measure cancer, but also because there is a well-defined claim: the root. The claimant can't later say, "Ah, sorry, you must also wear this hat," and then keep selling the root as a curative. You started off telling a ghost story and then morphed your claim into your own consciousness talking to you via some other "dimension." In other words, you simply move the goalposts and claim no one can hit it. In that respect these sorts of claims are far worse than other woo claims whose claimants at least allow themselves to be pinned down for testing. Consciousness transcending death either through brief visitation from the living side or prophetic returns from the dead is nebulous bunk. |
15th November 2015, 11:42 AM | #622 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 9,008
|
NDE's are merely our brains final attempt at making things better.
|
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
|
15th November 2015, 12:10 PM | #623 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
I know, but there are theories based on mathematics that do state that other dimensions are possible. They are just mathematical representations of a "maybe" and sometimes those "maybe's" are wrong.
To me consciousness is self awareness. That awareness can include animals such as great apes, dogs, cats, whales, dolphins, and many other animals but no other species can contemplate the existence of their own consciousness that we know about. That must mean that self awareness is tied into intelligence, which is a brain based process. That said, perception is also a process of the brain. I don't think any research has been done to distinguish what consciousness actually is, other than how it manifests via the brain through processes. Look at cetacean brain morphology compared to our brain morphology. Dolphins are self aware, they have an extra lobe in their brain that allows them to stay aware of their surroundings while the rest of their brain sleeps. That's a type of dual consciousness, to them, we must always appear to be sleeping. At any rate, there is enough evidence related to cetacean consciousness for a number of people to propose "personhood" for cetaceans. However the fundamentalists are up in arms over whether the dolphin has a soul....so to sum it all up, no one has a clear handle on what consciousness represents other than a physiological means of interpreting the environment. How would you test for non corporeal consciousness, what kind of evidence would you look for? If you can't adequately define what consciousness is here how would you look for it in other dimensional space? It hasn't been tested, therefore it doesn't fall into the same category as some of the other woo topics, therefore you can't lump it all into one category. For there to be no evidence, one would have to design a study to look for said evidence, and that hasn't happened. |
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 12:16 PM | #624 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
15th November 2015, 12:19 PM | #625 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
Scientists are not looking at alt-med the right way either. It obviously works because no one has definitively decided what constitutes health. Multiplacebo reality isn't testable at this time.
It's a clone of other woo topics, such as NDE and dimensional consciousness — you see this; but that's your game. |
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
15th November 2015, 12:22 PM | #626 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
15th November 2015, 12:48 PM | #627 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
Wrong, people have researched the origin of certain myths, leprechauns being one of those myths.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 01:50 PM | #628 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
You were already explained why this notion is incorrect. Why do you persist in forcing this notion down our throats?
Why would one want to 'look for consciousness' in 'other dimensional space'? In other words, why would you look for consciousness in a place for which there is no evidence whatsoever that it exists and/or that consciousness could exist in 'such a place'? |
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 01:58 PM | #629 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
You meant, absolutely right.
Fantastical speculation is what you engage in. You do present it as truth from behind the claims for speculation with a science basis, which it hasn't. See your wrong use of dimensions. Always relying on the reversal of the burden of proof. |
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 02:29 PM | #630 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Why can't ghosts and out-of-body experiences also be examples of such myths? You miss the point entirely. People have for years attributed their one-off observations to various things they though might exist. You can't seem to see that you're doing essentially the same thing. People who believed in leprechauns justified their beliefs according to their knowledge of the natural world. Centuries earlier, belief in demonic possession was considered as scientific as beliefs could be. Just because you advocate your attributions today by allusions to modern science doesn't mean they are somehow less susceptible to just being myths.
"You can't prove it's not interdimensional contact" is exactly no more probative than "You can't prove it's not demonic possession." That's precisely why shifting the burden of proof as you've attempted to do is irrational.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So it boils down to the same rhetorical tap dance. You know you can't prove your theory correct, so you recast it as needed from day to day in order to make sure it can't be refuted. You obviously intend to make your entire case on nothing more substantial than the alleged incompleteness of science and the supposed untestability of your claims. It's a completely unscientific ploy to hold out hope for a cherished belief, and you can't seem to realize that all your critics here see through it pretty easily. |
15th November 2015, 02:32 PM | #631 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
|
15th November 2015, 02:42 PM | #632 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
No, Jodie. Your critics are not ignorant wretches no matter how vigorously you intend to poison the well. I explained the scientific view at length in your ghost-story thread. This led to your belated admission that you were not properly schooled in these sciences. I asked you then to justify your continued accusation there that your critics didn't accept your argument because they were not informed enough to understand it.
I note that you resurrect that accusation here without having justified it there. Please justify it now.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You insist on portraying your critics as somehow ideologically crippled or intellectually stunted. You don't seem to consider that what bothers your critics is your blatant misuse and misunderstanding of scientific principles as if they favored your claim. |
15th November 2015, 02:50 PM | #633 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
That's essentially it. An amphiboly is primarily an equivocation. If a physicist says, "Space is composed of multiple dimensions," that isn't the same use of "multiple dimensions" as when a fringe theorist hypothesizes that invisible realms exist to explain various paranormal claims via a supposed manipulation of time and space within those realms. Fringe thinking trades upon the use of pseudoscientific terms and phrases to led it the illusion of authority.
Maartenn100's post well above is probably the most succinct expression of just such an amphiboly. The ambiguity of physics rendered in natural language as opposed to mathematics engenders the equivocation. |
15th November 2015, 03:03 PM | #634 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Leprechauns exist in the fifth dimension beyond the event horizon of the formless. Prove me wrong.
Mathematics can define as many dimensions as one might wish. M-theory goes as far as 26. That they can be defined mathematically says nothing about what may or may not exist in them, it is simply the latesst "gap" which woo-peddlers like to hang their hat. Of course, you would not sink so low, I assume. Yet that is exactly what the woo-peddlers do. Would you like to ascend to the fifth dimension? then send $99.99 to...blah, blah. The Wooniverse is replete with such nonsense. If you wish to speculate, fine, but this thread is about evidence that NDE's are real experiences of trips to another dimension and any such speculation will be interpreted as de facto support for such a proposition. Maybe you dislike getting lumped into that box but it is your own self who has done the lumping so please do not complain to anyone about the results of your own actions. Have you reserved space for violent jihadism and it's inevitable consequences as witnessed in Paris. Is there room in your world for those beliefs right or wrong? Like violent jihadism. Like violent Jihadism. Nor do jihadists. Yet you believe in it despite the lack of evidence. That is faith. Non-sequitur. Explain why any deceased person on the fifth or higher dimension should be precluded from interaction with the prior four. How is it that you came by such knowledge? There has never been any need for such childish diversions beyond a very human fear of death. Extra dimensions are no different, simply a wishful security blanket with a different colour. What you propose is yet another superstition to replace the old and untenable ones, nothing more. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
15th November 2015, 03:08 PM | #635 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Pseudoscience is the new religion. And many religions are promoted by showing their perceived advantage over outmoded superstitions. "Leprechauns? Bah! They don't exist. They're just manifestations of interdimensional distortion." No different than Paul of Tarsus, 2000 years ago, showing people how Christianity superseded the "unknown god, whom [they] ignorantly worship."
|
15th November 2015, 03:53 PM | #636 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
And Jodie is pretending to be a true believer, here, where she knows her song and trance act can disrupt the most.
It would not be so bad if she showed change, some evolution in her thought, but she's just like Maartten and has no intention of doing anything but batting her paws at us now and then to see what chaos she can cause. |
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
15th November 2015, 03:59 PM | #637 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
Because it isn't proven to be wrong.
Quote:
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 04:31 PM | #638 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
|
OBE's aren't the same as NDE's. In OBE's you are supposedly leaving your body to visit somewhere else but the somewhere else is usually here on earth. An OBE would be an extension of your consciousness, not non-corporeal since your body that is left behind is still living.
Ghosts wouldn't be dead people that you know, they might be something else already here that assumes that form. Most likely it's something affecting perception in some way as was suggested earlier in the other thread like infrasound. The difference between what I'm doing is that a dimensional reality theoretically exists. If it is proven to be more than theory, then these other dimensions would affect our reality. A couple of examples that I listed in the previous thread was the expansion affect of the universe that's been observed and the missing matter. They really shouldn't exist.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
|
15th November 2015, 04:52 PM | #639 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
Like I said:
Always relying on the reversal of the burden of proof. My question already answered that. There is no data to support the notion of 'other dimensions' as you claim to 'understand them'. Why aren't you looking for fire spitting dragons? |
__________________
|
|
15th November 2015, 04:55 PM | #640 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|