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Old 4th March 2016, 07:28 AM   #761
MaartenVergu
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So, we just have to wait for the book, and we have knowledge about quantumphysics like never before...
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)
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Old 4th March 2016, 07:52 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Let's give some evidence:
Evidence of what, exactly?

AFAIK no-one disputes that people have NDEs, or that they are sometimes profoundly changed by them. It's claims that they are evidence of an afterlife, or that one's 'soul' can leave the body and return during them, that are disputed. Becoming better able to grasp abstract physics does not fall into either category.

It would certainly be interesting, but it isn't unprecedented for someone who suffers brain trauma to emerge from the experience with enhanced abilities (artistic or musical most commonly, IIRC).
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Old 4th March 2016, 08:15 AM   #763
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But he said it was evidence. It was proper hoc, it was. Ergo facto. Ex ziggly zacto.
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Old 4th March 2016, 09:52 AM   #764
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Maartenn100, why do you post useless anecdotes if the question below is still outstanding?
Where did you get the 'spacetime-experience'?:
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Alright, so it appears that you got that text: "The 'oneness', the place of love, peace, understanding and knowledge of all is also the place where time does not exist. All of what we humans call 'time' is present in this 'oneness'.":

..... from here, without proper attribution but with apparent false representation as a 'spacetime-experience'.

Where do you get this as a 'spacetime-experience'? Or is it just your way of attempting to associate a belief in an afterlife with Einstein?
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Old 4th March 2016, 09:54 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
So, we just have to wait for the book, ...
Of course, what else?


Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
... and we have knowledge about quantumphysics like never before...
There's no evidence of that.
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Old 4th March 2016, 10:03 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
...and we have knowledge about quantumphysics like never before...
nope
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Old 4th March 2016, 01:49 PM   #767
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This is clear evidence:

"He (The professor in physics) stated that Rajaa had come to him with some papers she had written about quantum physics (based on her NDE experiences) and he was shocked by her knowledge as she had not previously studied this. He went on to say that this knowledge could not have been attained through undertaking a booster course in this subject. In fact in some of Rajaa’s papers he did not understand what she had written but later discovered newly published papers which supported her work."

The professor was shocked by her knowledge.
Later discoved newly published papars supported her work (based on her NDE experience)

What more evidence do you need????!!!
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)

Last edited by MaartenVergu; 4th March 2016 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:14 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What more evidence do you need????!!!
Evidence of what?

Please point out the supernatural bit.
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:27 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
This is clear evidence:

"He (The professor in physics) stated that Rajaa had come to him with some papers she had written about quantum physics (based on her NDE experiences) and he was shocked by her knowledge as she had not previously studied this. He went on to say that this knowledge could not have been attained through undertaking a booster course in this subject. In fact in some of Rajaa’s papers he did not understand what she had written but later discovered newly published papers which supported her work."

The professor was shocked by her knowledge.
Later discoved newly published papars supported her work (based on her NDE experience)

What more evidence do you need????!!!
Who is 'He' and where and when did she get her degree in quantum physics?
Where are her 'papers'?

Do try harder.
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:44 PM   #770
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Quote:
Who is 'He'
What's the relevance? He is a professor in physics. That's all the relevant information you need to know.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:52 PM   #771
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You have a report of a conversation in which the opinion of an anonymous academic was quoted. You don't even give a link to the source of the report. How can you possibly imagine that this qualifies as evidence of anything?
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:55 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What's the relevance? He is a professor in physics. That's all the relevant information you need to know.
Seriously? I am a professor- would you like to hear my stories on elves?
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:56 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
This is clear evidence:

"He (The professor in physics) stated that Rajaa had come to him with some papers she had written about quantum physics (based on her NDE experiences) and he was shocked by her knowledge as she had not previously studied this. He went on to say that this knowledge could not have been attained through undertaking a booster course in this subject. In fact in some of Rajaa’s papers he did not understand what she had written but later discovered newly published papers which supported her work."

The professor was shocked by her knowledge.
Later discoved newly published papars supported her work (based on her NDE experience)

What more evidence do you need????!!!
No, that's an anecdote which is wooing the gullible.
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:59 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Seriously? I am a professor- would you like to hear my stories on elves?
Wouldn't that make your stories absolute proof?
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:00 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What's the relevance? He is a professor in physics. That's all the relevant information you need to know.
Hilite by Daylightstar


Who is?
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:09 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Wouldn't that make your stories absolute proof?
Oddly enough not all of my friends and family believe them all. My kids seem especially skeptical of the validity of my statements and suggestions.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:24 PM   #777
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Why do I have a feeling that Maartenn himself will now bring up the "fallacy of argument from authority" to indict mainstream science as a source of information or validity? "Oh, you are just sheep blindly following people who claim that they are experts! That's why you reject my ideas!"

As usual, this ignores two things:
1. Science is not accepted due to who advocates it, but due to the match between a theory and the relevant real world observations/experimental results. We accept the theory of Relativity not because Einstein was the one to propose it, but because it has been repeatedly proven true in experimental tests. In fact, Einstein was a patent clerk when he first devised his ideas, and he had little or no personal authority in the world of physics at the time.
2. Second, it is not a fallacy to give weight to the views of an authority IN THE RELEVANT AREA; the fallacy is giving weight to an authority in one area when judging a concept in another area. A law professor is likely to be an expert in law, but probably not in car manufacturing. That said, people are people and even the views of an apparently relevant authority are usually evaluated to see if they match the views of other authorities in that area. Every field has several weird former-experts who have gone "off the deep end" and are now largely ignored because their views no longer fit experimental fact.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:31 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Oddly enough not all of my friends and family believe them all. My kids seem especially skeptical of the validity of my statements and suggestions.
Ah, they're too skeptical, they should open their minds a bit
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:33 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You have a report of a conversation in which the opinion of an anonymous academic was quoted. You don't even give a link to the source of the report. How can you possibly imagine that this qualifies as evidence of anything?
The source is probably here:
https://drpennysartori.wordpress.com...seille-france/
although the text can be found elsewhere also.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:34 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What's the relevance? He is a professor in physics. That's all the relevant information you need to know.
By the way:
https://drpennysartori.wordpress.com...eille-france/:
Quote:
(I think he was a Professor of Physics)
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:26 PM   #781
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..................................
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)

Last edited by MaartenVergu; 4th March 2016 at 04:33 PM. Reason: ,
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:56 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
..................................
Most sensible thing you've said so far.
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Old 5th March 2016, 03:03 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Most sensible thing you've said so far.
Agreed.
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Old 5th March 2016, 01:25 PM   #784
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http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/9361...antum-physics/

I have not read every post on this thread, so I apologize if his name has been mentioned.

Dr. Russ Hugenot gives lectures on NDE's and has written at least one book on the topic. Truthfully, the book was over my head, and difficult for me to understand. I did agree to attend a lecture he gave when a friend who is a believer in NDE's encouraged me to go. I was not impressed, but many others seem to be.

Is anyone here familiar with his work, and also posses an understanding of physics?
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Old 5th March 2016, 01:49 PM   #785
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Seems to be an awful lot of 'ifs, buts, mays and perhapses' and very little substance.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:50 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/9361...antum-physics/

I have not read every post on this thread, so I apologize if his name has been mentioned.

Dr. Russ Hugenot gives lectures on NDE's and has written at least one book on the topic. Truthfully, the book was over my head, and difficult for me to understand. I did agree to attend a lecture he gave when a friend who is a believer in NDE's encouraged me to go. I was not impressed, but many others seem to be.

Is anyone here familiar with his work, and also posses an understanding of physics?
One thing is clear, he thinks he found a gap for his beliefs, sized 96% of everything:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/9361...antum-physics/:
Quote:
Hugenot said: “This undiscerned 96 percent of the universe … gives us plenty of room for both consciousness and the afterlife to exist in.”
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Old 6th March 2016, 05:57 AM   #787
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Sceptics on this forum argue that there are cultural differences among experiencers and that the cultural and traditional beliefs have an influence on the actual near death experience.

In fact: there are many cases where people change their cultural beliefs about life, the meaning of life, death etc. after their experience of an NDE.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)

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Old 6th March 2016, 06:14 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Sceptics on this forum argue that there are cultural differences among experiencers and that the culture and traditional beliefs have an influence on the actual near death experience.

In fact: there are many cases where people change their cultural beliefs about life, the meaning of life, death etc. after their experience of an NDE.

And?

Those two statements are not contradictory, and I very much doubt that you will find anyone who claims that peoples' beliefs are not affected by their experiences.
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Old 6th March 2016, 09:32 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Sceptics on this forum argue that there are cultural differences among experiencers and that the cultural and traditional beliefs have an influence on the actual near death experience.

In fact: there are many cases where people change their cultural beliefs about life, the meaning of life, death etc. after their experience of an NDE.
Irrelevant. Of course we can change our minds when new experiences occur.

That does not make the experiences something other than cultural.

I somehow expect that if masses of Jews, Buddhists and Muslims had converted to Christianity after meeting Jesus, we'd have heard more about it.
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Old 6th March 2016, 11:09 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Sceptics on this forum argue that there are cultural differences among experiencers and that the cultural and traditional beliefs have an influence on the actual near death experience.
...
Pre-NDE influence.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
...
In fact: there are many cases where people change their cultural beliefs about life, the meaning of life, death etc. after their experience of an NDE.
Post-NDE influence.


What exactly are you arguing?
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Old 6th March 2016, 12:02 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
What exactly are you arguing?

I suspect it's "skeptics are wrong, therefore Maartenn is right."
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Old 6th March 2016, 04:07 PM   #792
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Should have stuck with:
Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
..................................
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Old 9th March 2016, 09:57 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Let's give some evidence:
You keep using that word...
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Old 9th March 2016, 09:58 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What more evidence do you need????!!!


Yeah, I mean he SAYS so!
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Old 18th April 2016, 03:01 AM   #795
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"John et al. (2001) identified reliable electroencephalographic (EEG) correlates of loss
and recovery of consciousness during general anesthesia. Their results confirmed the
standard thinking about anesthesia and EEG, namely, that unconsciousness is
associated with a profound reduction in brain activity under anesthesia. Additional
results supportive of this conclusion derive from other recent functional imaging
studies that have looked at blood flow, glucose metabolism, or other indicators of
cerebral activity under general anesthesia (Alkire, 1998; Alkire et al., 2000; Shulman
et al., 2003; White & Alkire, 2003). In these studies, brain areas essential to the global
workspace are consistently greatly reduced in activity individually and may be
decoupled functionally, thereby providing considerable evidence against the possibility
that the anesthetized brain could produce clear thinking, perception, or memory.
The situation is even more dramatic with regard to NDEs occurring during cardiac
arrest, many of which in fact occur also in conjunction with major surgical procedures
involving general anesthesia. In four published studies alone, more than 100 cases of
NDEs occurring during cardiac arrest were reported (Greyson, 2003; Parnia et al.,
2001; Sabom, 1982; van Lommel et al., 2001). Like NDEs that occur with general
anesthesia, those that occur in connection with cardiac arrest include the typical
features associated with NDEs, including enhanced sensation and mentation, out-ofbody
experiences, and visions of deceased acquaintances."

In cardiac arrest, even neuronal action-potentials, the ultimate physical basis for
coordination of neural activity between widely separated brain regions, are rapidly
abolished (Kelly et al., 2007). Moreover, cells in the hippocampus, the region thought
to be essential for memory formation, are especially vulnerable to the effects of anoxia
(Vriens et al., 1996). In short, it is not credible to suppose that NDEs occurring under
conditions of general anesthesia, let alone cardiac arrest, can be accounted for in terms
of some hypothetical residual capacity of the brain to process and store complex
information under those conditions.
A second defense of the mind-brain production theory for NDEs is to suggest that
these experiences do not occur during the actual episodes of brain insult, but before or
just after the insult, when the brain is more or less functional (Augustine, 2007;
Rodabaugh, 1985).
However, unconsciousness produced by cardiac arrest characteristically leaves patients
amnesic and confused for events immediately preceding and following these episodes
(Aminoff et al., 1988; Parnia & Fenwick, 2002; van Lommel et al., 2001).
Furthermore, a substantial number of NDEs contain apparent time "anchors" in the
form of verifiable reports of events occurring during the period of insult itself. For
example, a cardiac-arrest victim described by van Lommel et al. (2001) had been
discovered lying in a meadow 30 minutes or more prior to his arrival at the emergency
room, comatose and cyanotic, and yet days later, having recovered, he was able to
describe accurately various circumstances occurring in conjunction with the ensuing
resuscitation procedures in the hospital.

Bruce Greyson.


So, a person under general anesthesia or cardiac arrest can't possibly experience an NDE according to the current brain-causes-consciousness-model of neurology; Yet many people did experience an NDE under general anestesia. How can you explain that? It falsifies the mind=brain-model of today.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)

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Old 18th April 2016, 03:14 AM   #796
MaartenVergu
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This is the explanation of critical thinkers of the 'out of body experience': (it's an extra-odinary theory):

"The mind-brain production theory could
attribute the belief that one has witnessed events going on around one’s body to a
retrospective imaginative reconstruction based on a persisting ability to hear, even
when unconscious, or to the memory of objects or events that one might have glimpsed
just before losing consciousness or while regaining consciousness, or to expectations
about what was likely to have occurred" (Saavedra-Aguilar & Gómez-Jeria, 1989;
Woerlee, 2004).

This is not convincing at all.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)
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Old 18th April 2016, 06:14 AM   #797
steenkh
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
So, a person under general anesthesia or cardiac arrest can't possibly experience an NDE according to the current brain-causes-consciousness-model of neurology; Yet many people did experience an NDE under general anestesia. How can you explain that? It falsifies the mind=brain-model of today.
Not at all. It just shows that NDEs are not created while the subject is under amnesia.

They might be created before or after.
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Old 18th April 2016, 07:55 PM   #798
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I think you are right Maarten but I have no concrete evidence to back it up, however, there is circumstantial evidence that suggests that there is more to consciousness than we understand. I might be wrong about how it looks from where I'm sitting but I'm not necessarily discounting something because it's qualitative. Ramanujan is a pretty good example of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
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Old 19th April 2016, 03:02 AM   #799
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How can one establish the existence of consciousness outside of one's self?
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Old 19th April 2016, 05:11 AM   #800
MaartenVergu
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post

They might be created before or after.
"A second defense of the mind-brain production theory for NDEs is to suggest that
these experiences do not occur during the actual episodes of brain insult, but before or
just after the insult, when the brain is more or less functional (Augustine, 2007;
Rodabaugh, 1985).
However, unconsciousness produced by cardiac arrest characteristically leaves patients
amnesic and confused for events immediately preceding and following these episodes
(Aminoff et al., 1988; Parnia & Fenwick, 2002; van Lommel et al., 2001).
Furthermore, a substantial number of NDEs contain apparent time "anchors" in the
form of verifiable reports of events occurring during the period of insult itself. For
example, a cardiac-arrest victim described by van Lommel et al. (2001) had been
discovered lying in a meadow 30 minutes or more prior to his arrival at the emergency
room, comatose and cyanotic, and yet days later, having recovered, he was able to
describe accurately various circumstances occurring in conjunction with the ensuing
resuscitation procedures in the hospital.

(Bruce Greyson)
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht)

Last edited by MaartenVergu; 19th April 2016 at 05:15 AM.
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