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20th June 2015, 08:31 AM | #161 |
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That would be an irrational misrepresentation of your actual position, which is:
Gorilla experiment = support for OOB. When you assign your belief to scientific experiments = not really good critical thinking. A flaw which you abundantly demonstrate again and again and again. |
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26th June 2015, 02:49 AM | #162 |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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26th June 2015, 04:06 AM | #163 |
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26th June 2015, 04:33 AM | #164 |
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He edited a repeated post that's also in his new thread on the tired old subject.
Come on over for the rumble: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post10731391 |
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26th June 2015, 09:20 AM | #165 |
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26th June 2015, 04:47 PM | #166 |
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Every moment of life is a near death experience.
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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27th June 2015, 07:46 PM | #167 |
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27th June 2015, 07:51 PM | #168 |
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Reminds me of iirc a Swedish experiment back in the sixties/early 70s where they supposedly put a dying person on a bed scale and supposedly noticed a tiny loss of mass when he died. Also iirc, it was said later it was most likely just the final expiration of breath.
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27th June 2015, 07:53 PM | #169 |
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27th June 2015, 08:03 PM | #170 |
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Multiverses are not the same thing as dimensions. Multiverses, if they exist at all may be infinite. Although I am not up on the latest, I believe science currently figures about eleven dimensions. Just to be helpful I will run a quick check (you could do this yourself I imagine). (37 seconds to find that) Ah, I am behind, as of this year they believe there may be an infinity of same!! so you were right on that. However, dimension and universe are still not the same thing.
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27th June 2015, 08:09 PM | #171 |
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Multiverse?
Actually, only a few scientists have proposed a multiverse as a hypothesis to solve some problems in current physics. It is not the case, as is implied by saying "scientists are willing to believe in a multiverse", that most scientists believe in a multiverse.
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27th June 2015, 08:11 PM | #172 |
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This, on the other hand is not claimed by any scientist. I could buy (though not accept it as correct) that the see-er might be on a different plane of existence intersecting ours. Note I said different plane of existence, not different universe, They are not the same thing (with no offense, you do like to conflate things a lot for some reason) and I have not heard physicists saying anything about different planes of existence - particularly since that is the realm of the scam things like astral projection/oob experiences.
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27th June 2015, 08:16 PM | #173 |
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More and more I am being forced to believe that all of this is headed to what others have mentioned much priorly: a proof/indicator of the existence of some form of god/heaven/afterlife. If it makes you feel better, fine for you, but please do not lay that on scientists or try to make others think that deluded way..
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29th June 2015, 02:02 AM | #174 |
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One thing I do know. Some medication don't work the right way for people. So some body parts might work. Let take sound. If the victim hears voices even in a semi dream state . They could take that voice and paint a picture of there faces to it and use sound location. Your mom could be to the right of you and your dad could be to the left. Other family and friends could be around the bed. All you are doing in this Haze is hearing them talk and not even know it.
This could also be true with eyesight. They might not remember it but could view the room while in a dream state. You know your eyes are somewhat open and your mind might pick up the image of the room. Same thing while someone in emergency room. Both in trauma and medicated and the affects are not quite what it should be. So they hear the people around them they see some of their faces they are touching different parts of the body and there pain in other parts. Your mind is in a haze. Where your mind dreams of it self above the body. It just a few idea what really could be happening. It also dose not mean the person out of body. |
29th June 2015, 02:05 AM | #175 |
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1st July 2015, 03:38 PM | #176 |
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The brain does not need the eyes to be open. It builds a mental model all the time, even when wearing ear muffs and a blindfold the brain is generating a model of the 'self' and its surroundings. These models don't need to be 100% accurate to be useful, or convincing.
Visual imagery uses many of the same brain regions as vision itself. In addition, senses also 'cross over' into multi-modal or poly-sensory processing. So I can work out your spatial location, relative to me, from your voice, or where on my body you touch me. None of this requires vision, but the resultant internal model may well have visuo-spatial attributes. This is one reason why blind people can have NDEs and OBEs....its no problem for neuroscience..... |
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1st July 2015, 03:45 PM | #177 |
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In addition, the original question about how do we explain that people have exactly the same experience in NDEs is really easy to answer. They don't.
The question is loaded and logically flawed. People have experiences that may share some thematic similarity - but in over 20 years of studying this field, I've never met any patients who report EXACTLY the same thing, not even 80% the same. We can explain why people have thematically similar experiences, in that we all have similar brains that work in similar ways and breakdown and hallucinate in a similar fashion. Some aspects of the NDE are higher-level hallucinations and these components are influenced by culture, and indeed history and so will vary. Other aspects (like the tunnel) are more low-level and tend to be shared to some degree across cultures - because they reflect core structural and functional aspects of the brain. The frustrating thing is that these answers have been with us for 20 years or more and yet, the woo's remain blissfully unaware...... |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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1st July 2015, 03:52 PM | #178 |
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Have you noticed why NDEers report travelling down a tunnel and never travelling backwards through a tunnel? Why might this be and how does science explain this (let alone woo)?
Well, we typically move through the world in a forward manner and cells in the retina and early visual cortex have a biased weighting for visual information that moves from the centre of vision to the surround. Video driving games exploit this. When excessive cortical disinhibition takes place in the cortex, and spreads to motion areas, the phosphenes tend to move outwards - known as foveofugal drift (representing the optic flow of the world). However, this gives you the impression you're moving towards the light in central vision. Foveopatal movement is the opposite. |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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1st July 2015, 03:57 PM | #179 |
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Finally, the argument of how do you explain the sequential 'order' of the NDE - well, its pointless and impossible because you're not researching dynamic perception in real time - you're researching a memory of an event that took place some time earlier and memory puts things into order. I think some have mentioned this earlier, but thought I'd reiterate the woo's often missed point that an NDE report is not a veridical account of the order of the different components.
Of course, I think it still needs to be explained why people 'tend' to experience things in a certain order, even if it is a false memory - but it must be acknowledged that just because an NDEer reports seeing dead relatives after travelling down a tunnel, does not mean that these hallucinatory percepts actually happened in that order. |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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1st July 2015, 07:57 PM | #180 |
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Thanks for that info Dr B. I have read it in other places, but it was a nice summary.
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2nd July 2015, 05:29 AM | #181 |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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2nd July 2015, 05:34 AM | #182 |
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The notion of 'similar' experiences meaning its paranormal has always confused me as an argument.
Henrich Kluver noted, in the 1960s, the presence of thematically similar hallucinatory imagery in drug users. He termed these Stage 1 form constants, one of which is a tunnel / spiral form. They are all low-level geometric forms and patterns of certain types Ronald Siegal(1970s / 1980s) applied the same logic to higher-level imagery - Stage 2 form constants - involving unreal perspectives, landscapes, figures, unreal worlds. So these 'similar' components have been well documented in science for decades More recently, Jack Cowan and Paul Bressloff have developed computer models of the visual cortex to seek to explain the existence of stage 1 form constants based on the Euclidean geometry of the visual cortex. Point is - everyone in the field knows, that relatively similar experiences occur in hallucinations....this is not a mystery |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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2nd July 2015, 06:12 AM | #183 |
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Indeed, some of my own … ah … field experience has shown that to be true.
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2nd July 2015, 11:48 AM | #184 |
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Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
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4th July 2015, 02:05 PM | #185 |
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The testimony of a sceptical atheïst scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VM9wcYvnCc |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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4th July 2015, 03:19 PM | #186 |
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4th July 2015, 03:36 PM | #187 |
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4th July 2015, 10:16 PM | #188 |
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4th July 2015, 11:43 PM | #189 |
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This confirms what I've been saying for a while - doing carefully designed experiments and having them peer reviewed only slows things and gets in the road of real scientific work.
Everybody knows that all the real science these days is published in Youtube. By people who aren't scientists... |
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5th July 2015, 01:25 AM | #190 |
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She also describes herself as 'blissfully agnostic'.
So not an atheist either. This gets more credible by the minute. |
5th July 2015, 03:49 AM | #191 |
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The data dripped down the fluorescent painted walls to the mystic minor scales of Pink Floyd. It flowed through my hands, heedless of cells or laws.
My best advice for you is to expect the veil to remain even as you are soaked with clarity and grasp the core of mystery now laid bare and coherent. Tomorrow you will be a stranger. |
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5th July 2015, 04:17 AM | #192 |
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Do you really think that NDE's or OBE's can be a subject for experiments? No, that's impossible. Science is limited. It cannot investigate everything. Consciousness and what people experience is a 'forbidden territory' for science.
People say that 'The NDE is more real then what we experience here in our daily lives'. We are talking here about a parallel reality. A tptally different dimension. A reality wich cannot be discovered by science, because the scientific method is limited. The neuroscientist can't go there with his instruments. |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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5th July 2015, 04:23 AM | #193 |
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5th July 2015, 04:32 AM | #194 |
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5th July 2015, 04:48 AM | #195 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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5th July 2015, 06:02 AM | #196 |
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5th July 2015, 06:03 AM | #197 |
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5th July 2015, 06:07 AM | #198 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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5th July 2015, 06:21 AM | #199 |
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5th July 2015, 07:46 AM | #200 |
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