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3rd February 2017, 06:21 AM | #401 |
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The anarchists are not part of the university.
But, as I said, I've seen a lot of despicable behaviour against conservative speakers before this riot. By students and student organisations. It must be possible to listen to Ben Shapiro without fear that his ideas will cause people to become anti-Abortion, or lawyers, or Orthodox Jews. You can listen to people you disagree with (you should, even). Perhaps debate them. or counter their arguments in a blog or Youtube video. I mean, I've listened to a couple of Richard Spencer podcasts and have gassed relatively few Jews this week. |
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3rd February 2017, 06:26 AM | #402 |
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I disagree. People like Milo and Spencer should not be listened to, and speaking engagements should be protested. Venues should be pressured to remove their appointments and visitors to the events should be pressured and harrassed. This is how we lay bare who's peddling neo-Nazism. That's what we are talking about when we say "better out in the open than hidden away". All of this falls under the first amendment.
What should not be done is committing violence against the audience* or destruction of private property. * I have no issue with someone socking Spencer or Milo in the face. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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3rd February 2017, 06:27 AM | #403 |
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Eh, Shapiro's a bit different than Milo or Spencer. He's still a fool, but he at least tries to be consistent (eg. he's happy to note that Milo has repeatedly tried to silence others), and he's actually a good debater. In other words, there's some sort of excuse for bringing him in as an intellectual, unlike Spencer (the Neo-Nazi wannabe) or Milo (again, just a troll).
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3rd February 2017, 06:32 AM | #404 |
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Milo on Tucker Carlson last night.
Meh, use this link. *For some reason, the usual methods for starting a Youtube video at a certain point don't work anymore. For example, adding &start=270 to the link should have done the trick. It used to work. |
3rd February 2017, 06:34 AM | #405 |
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Here we see the fruits of Breitbart's "see, we're totally not gay-bashers" strategy of having an openly Gay (sic) individual do their homophobic messaging. Then, when the LGBT community voices criticism, they can go 'hey stop being homophobic!'
But no really, why are gay and homophobia capitalized? :9 |
3rd February 2017, 06:37 AM | #406 |
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Milo plays exactly the same role as Ben Carson: a token minority person, a fig-leaf to protect against a certain line of attack.
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3rd February 2017, 06:39 AM | #407 |
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Shapiro is a boring mainstream conservative. He's basically a 1950's dad.
-Finish school -Save money -Embryos are people -Don't have kids till you're married Those are basically his talking points. But despite that, I've seen livestream footage of rabid leftie students trying to physically block his audience from reaching his venue, and then locking him and his audience in the venue by keeping the doors locked. Shapiro had to be escorted out the backdoor by security. The audience was locked up and had to wait till the left-winged students got bored and ended their siege. There is no room for diversity of thought in higher learning institutions and that is very dangerous. |
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3rd February 2017, 06:39 AM | #408 |
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3rd February 2017, 06:40 AM | #409 |
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I disagree. That is not how things are supposed to work in the US. I realize Europe, and in particular Sweden, does not value free speech, but Americans do. At least most Americans do. If you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore*, but don't try to stop me from posting.
*LOL. |
3rd February 2017, 06:41 AM | #410 |
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3rd February 2017, 06:41 AM | #411 |
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3rd February 2017, 06:44 AM | #412 |
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No, but it does mean that people shouldn't be actively trying to take away a platform that you were freely provided by people who wanted to hear what you had to say. Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association. All of that is in the bill of rights. More than that, they are core values of most Americans. Even if the city of Berkeley and the university (which is a government institution) hadn't failed in their duty to provide adequate security, it would still be wrong to shut down speech outside the government context. Not legally wrong, but morally.
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3rd February 2017, 06:48 AM | #413 |
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Is Milo in prison?
Is Milo dead from government forces? Has Milo been fined by a court judgment? Is Milo being repeatedly harassed with frivolous charges by a prosecutor? Jesus Christ on a cracker and people think liberals need safe spaces? SCOTUS says police are under no obligation to endanger themselves to protect life or property, by the way. Something liberals have been getting reminded about for years only to get a shrug of the shoulder. |
3rd February 2017, 06:49 AM | #414 |
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Is there a qualitative difference between the government attacking you physically for what you say and allowing (inciting even) 3rd parties to attack you physically for what you say. Milo had to be smuggled out of the building, hidden in the back of a car and covered by a blanket. The Berkeley police are playing games and cutting things kind of close.
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3rd February 2017, 06:52 AM | #415 |
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Do you even read my posts? It doesn't seem like you do. Or maybe you just don't understand them.
Here's a similar example. The Supreme Court ruled that US flag burning was protected under the 1st Amendment. One Florida town's response was to propose a law that reduced the penalty to that of a parking ticket for people accused of assaulting another person who was in the act of burning a US flag. Do you think that law would have passed Constitutional muster? |
3rd February 2017, 06:57 AM | #416 |
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I know of no 'government incitement' to physically attack Milo.
If by "3rd parties" you mean private citizens acting on their on inclinations, they are not Constitutionally bound government institutions. If they engage in a criminal act, they should be arrested and given appropriate punishment. But those are 2 distinct questions and that cannot be overstated. Sounds like the Berkeley police, despite being under no obligation to risk themselves to protect him did so. That you want to make this into something to be upset about is your issue to resolve with yourself. Be upset about criminal behavior all you want, I even agree. But at this point now you're weaving us towards conspiracy la-la land where UCB, the city, the police, and whoever else are all complicit in some way. Dumbass kids broke laws. You're trying to write the script for a whodunit over here. |
3rd February 2017, 07:00 AM | #417 |
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No. There is a compelling governmental interest in prevention of violence. To obviate itself from that interest in a curiously narrow way like that creates a prior restraint on another right.
Law is tough for you. That's fine. Not everyone has the chops to be a Constitutional scholar. You can let other folks handle it because it seems to be well beyond you. |
3rd February 2017, 07:19 AM | #418 |
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3rd February 2017, 07:20 AM | #419 |
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Well, here's a tweet by Berkeley's mayor shortly before the event and protest:
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3rd February 2017, 07:33 AM | #420 |
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That sounds like The Douchiest Show on Earth.
I've said before that far too many people see "racist" as an insult, when it's really a description. This may be true of "homophobe" as well. Having a single, obviously hateful, gay guy on staff won't help them in the slightest. |
3rd February 2017, 07:39 AM | #421 |
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You have lower expectations of the police and their responsibility than I do. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy to suggest that they did not do their jobs in a manner the community would expect.
I fully admit my lack of operational procedure knowledge when dealing with a protest with small portions of bad actors, but I would expect in a situation dealing with such an occurrence, sitting back with no arrests is not the best course of action. My high school football games had comparable crowds in total as the protesters. If the visiting team had began vandalizing school property, I can guarantee there would be arrests made and an attempt to dissuade similar actions. The fact the opposing team would all be uniform in appearance (football uniforms), that would give an added leg up on weeding out the specific bad apples. I think having expectations of certain actions of the police are necessary. Saying they are not required to risk themselves is a random cop out. You would not use that thinking if a band of KKK members had infiltrated a similar non-violent protest and began assaulting minorities and caused property damage. "Well, they weren't required to risk themselves to stop criminal acts.. And how could they find those KKK members in those crowds? Especially since they are the only ones wearing those white sheets.." It's disingenuous in the sense that you would expect different actions depending on the perpetrators purpose. If you agree with it, inaction on the side of the police is fine. If you disagree with it, action was required. I don't think there should be any ambiguity here. |
3rd February 2017, 07:40 AM | #422 |
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Great contribution. By the way, I'm not at all impressed with Tucker Carlson's show. He's like the conservative version of Chris Matthews on Hardball.
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3rd February 2017, 07:44 AM | #423 |
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3rd February 2017, 07:46 AM | #424 |
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A lot of posters are assuming this, but IIRC, anarchists are generally anti-authority more than leftist. The right makes a more frequent and natural target, but that does not mean they favor the political left; they are anti-political. They don't appear on the left/moderate/right scale, they wait outside of all that with bricks and Molotovs in hand, looking for an excuse to protest the status quo.
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3rd February 2017, 07:55 AM | #425 |
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Arrests were made. Well it's about bloody time these left-wing criminals are carted off to jail. If they can't act civilized, then put them in prison and throw away the keys. |
3rd February 2017, 07:59 AM | #426 |
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The "progressive" left must have some sort of masochistic desire to get more Trump because rioting over a college speaker is how you get more Trump.
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3rd February 2017, 08:11 AM | #428 |
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3rd February 2017, 08:12 AM | #429 |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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3rd February 2017, 08:28 AM | #430 |
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I'm not the one who floated the idea that the university, city, or police were careless or unconcerned to begin with. In fact I was pushing back against that idea.
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Officer safety should be #1, though. Ratio of officers to protestors, what kind of gear the officers are in, whether they have crowd dispersal tools, etc. If it's a dozen officers in plain patrol gear, they would be well advised to hang back for a bit while their watch commander gets them what they need.
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"The duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists." I'm no fan of the decision and I don't condone the violence either way. There is no 'gotcha' here for you to find, I'm afraid. I'm not aware of a "special relationship" between the police and Milo, so the fact they helped him is literally not something they were compelled (by law) to do as police officers.
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3rd February 2017, 08:45 AM | #431 |
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Aside from the fact that the Warren v. DC case is not binding on the 9th Circuit (which has jurisdiction over Berkeley), it doesn't strike me as relevant. The case was about whether or not victims of a crime could sue the city and police for negligence in responding promptly and effectively to a crime in progress. It doesn't seem like there was any allegation of malice on the part of the city or police.
My allegation here is that Berkeley was guilty of willful negligence. Also, the public duty doctrine (whatever that is) would seem to apply to an attempt by a mob to disrupt the peace and quash the right of hundreds of people to assemble and speak. This is simply not the same thing as police failing to investigate properly a report of a home intrusion and rape in progress. |
3rd February 2017, 09:12 AM | #432 |
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Not really in the boat on officer safety being #1 but I agree that they should only do what they are equipped to handle. That being said, I do feel that reviewing policy might be in order if it is found to be unable to deal with small level protests and vandalism/assaults.
I never indicated any special relationship between Milo and the police. I am more specifically speaking about the police in regards to their duty to the community. Milo isn't paying for the $100,000 in damages. The community will. And I think that the community has the right to expect a certain level of action from the police force. While civilly they are not required to do their jobs in certain respects, that doesn't mean the place that employs them can't have a voice about their inaction. Conceded. I should not have said 'you'. It was more a general statement than something that should have been attributed to you. I apologize for that. |
3rd February 2017, 09:15 AM | #433 |
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3rd February 2017, 09:53 AM | #434 |
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3rd February 2017, 10:24 AM | #435 |
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3rd February 2017, 10:37 AM | #436 |
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I agree, and I think this is exactly what they're afraid of.
In addition it seems like progressive pundits have gotten really comfortable in their bubble and forgotten how to debate, even internally. They seem to spend a lot of energy on memes that are meant to be shared and consumed amongst themselves, or shared on social media for virtue signaling. Argumemnon asked your for a source for this a couple of pages ago. I second his request. |
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So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
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3rd February 2017, 10:43 AM | #437 |
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There's some interesting video from the incident. Especially informative was this segment where an NYU "professor" was upset at police for not protecting "anti-fascist" members from College Republicans debating them.
I just right-clicked and went to "Copy video URL at current time" and it seemed to work. The copied URL seemed to append something more like t=270 instead of start=270. YMMV. |
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So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
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3rd February 2017, 10:46 AM | #438 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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3rd February 2017, 10:48 AM | #439 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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3rd February 2017, 10:52 AM | #440 |
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...2%80%9Cpizzaga
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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