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Old 8th July 2018, 10:16 PM   #81
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
I had to think long and hard about this. It seems that criminalisation is not terribly effective, and it to me seems to create a generalised sympathy of self inflicted addiction that even is used as mitigating factor in some criminal cases. People abuse substances for a multitude of different reasons and become addicted for many more. I think that crimes committed whilst under the influence should not be treated leniently at all. Beyond that I have to admit I don't know. I don't think there is any one solution to this issue.
I agree with the highlighted part. Intoxication should be a mandatory aggravating factor in a crime and the intoxicated offender should receive a heavier penalty than one who was not intoxicated.

Drug users (including alcohol users) must be held accountable for their actions.

Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
What about reports that link marijuanna with mental health issues? Add onto that some people require stronger and stronger doses the more it is used leading to it becoming a gateway to heavier drugs.
This "gateway" nonsense has been thoroughly debunked many times. The vast majority of marijuana uses do not move on to more dangerous drugs. Of those that do, it is arguably because in many instances they are offered by the same illegal sources that supply the marijuana.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Completely unlike alcohol.
Nope as per one of my earlier posts I include alcohol as a drug. And disclaimer, yes, I drink (mainly whisky) occasionally.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I agree with the highlighted part. Intoxication should be a mandatory aggravating factor in a crime and the intoxicated offender should receive a heavier penalty than one who was not intoxicated.

Drug users (including alcohol users) must be held accountable for their actions.
The guiding principle being that one is more responsible for ones actions when drunk or otherwise intoxicated rather than less so?

Because, if that's the case, I can see that principle causing problems if applied elsewhere.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:13 AM   #84
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:37 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
What about reports that link marijuanna with mental health issues?
The evidence is questionable. Moreover, whatever harm there is in using marijuanna is dwarfed by the harm done to the person by treating them like a criminal for doing it.
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Old 9th July 2018, 09:40 AM   #86
psionl0
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The guiding principle being that one is more responsible for ones actions when drunk or otherwise intoxicated rather than less so?
Yes.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because, if that's the case, I can see that principle causing problems if applied elsewhere.
The would of course be an exception for involuntary intoxication (being roofied or medical treatment etc).

The point is that an intoxicated person is not only more likely to commit a criminal act but they are also more likely to go too far while committing it.

With intoxication comes responsibility.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:34 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, there were definitely ads which had doctors - or at least people who said that they were doctors who were probably actually actors - recommending brands of cigarettes. You can probably find some on youtube.
I once had a DVD with dozens of radio and TV ads for tobacco products as part of a presentation I did at SkeptiCamps about healthfraud and shills.

My personal favourite was the MD who said that as a respirologist he recommends everybody take up smoking brand X cigarettes because it 'stimulates the lungs' and makes them healthier.



ETA: who's seen that SCTV sketch with the doctors trying to solve 'black lung disease' in a hospital dense with cigarette smoke? Eugene Levy at his best. The punchline is that he appears to figure it out, suddenly rushing from bed to bed touching the bedside ashtrays: "Smoking, smoking, smoking, smoking, they're ALL smoking... Nurse! I want these ashtrays sterilized immediately!"
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The evidence is questionable. Moreover, whatever harm there is in using marijuanna is dwarfed by the harm done to the person by treating them like a criminal for doing it.
As far as I know marijuana has been demonstrated to have a role in exacerbating or increasing the severity of existing schizophrenia, but it has never been demonstrated to play a role in causing schizophrenia in otherwise undiagnosed people.

In other words, if you already have schizophrenia, you shouldn't be smoking weed. Otherwise you're probably going to be okay.
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Old 9th July 2018, 09:05 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Did doctors recommend them, or was it just the observation of that doctors smoke them? With the implied but not actual recommendation.
My mother was a registered nurse in the 50's. Her doctor recommended taking up smoking to reduce stress.

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry
Have you never taken a drug?
Unfortunately yes. I was addicted to a psychoactive drug that manufacturers can legally put in products without any warning.

Quote:
Exactly where is the line drawn in your personal worldview?
Nobody seems to care about the drugs that are already legal, so why should a line be drawn? Why should alcohol and nicotine be legal but marijuana not? And if the answer to that is no reason, then why should other drugs be banned? Is there some arbitrary cutoff point where it is decided that this drug is too dangerous, but that one isn't?

Originally Posted by Steve
Why do you think that would happen?
The majority of the population are already drug addicts.

Originally Posted by psionl0
The drug lords must love you.
On the contrary, they will hate me for taking the profit out of it. Let's make prostitution and gambling legal too. Now how will the criminals make any money?
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:47 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I agree. All drugs should be legalized. And no age limits either.

Because I think turning everyone into a drug addict is a super idea.
Why do you think that would happen?
The majority of the population are already drug addicts.
You can't even follow your own line of reasoning.
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:49 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In other words, if you already have schizophrenia, you shouldn't be smoking weed.
I don't believe you.




And I don't either.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:53 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes.


The would of course be an exception for involuntary intoxication (being roofied or medical treatment etc).

The point is that an intoxicated person is not only more likely to commit a criminal act but they are also more likely to go too far while committing it.

With intoxication comes responsibility.

That would seem to lead us to: "it's not rape if the other party's really drunk*"?




(*Willing, but really, really drunk)
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:15 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know marijuana has been demonstrated to have a role in exacerbating or increasing the severity of existing schizophrenia, but it has never been demonstrated to play a role in causing schizophrenia in otherwise undiagnosed people.

In other words, if you already have schizophrenia, you shouldn't be smoking weed. Otherwise you're probably going to be okay.
This is my interpretation as well, although I would expand the contraindication to include anybody with a history of psychotic episodes, transient or otherwise. Also mood disorders (depression, bipolar), delusional disorder, and any brain related condition that is medicated (eg epilepsy).

I volunteer at a clinic in the DTES, and unfortunately, this problem needs more research to formalize the medical guidelines. Right now, it's obvious from observation that cannabis use complicates psychiatric outcomes, the same way it's obvious that parachutes reduce injury when jumping out of a plane, but no, i can't prove it with citations.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:45 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That would seem to lead us to: "it's not rape if the other party's really drunk*"?




(*Willing, but really, really drunk)
That doesn't follow. Nobody is talking about reversing the onus of proof.

Without consent it is rape and it makes no difference if somebody is unwilling or unable to give consent.

It's a little more complicated if somebody chooses to get so intoxicated that they give consent that they otherwise would not have given but that is not a crime and therefore not part of what I am discussing.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That would seem to lead us to: "it's not rape if the other party's really drunk*"?




(*Willing, but really, really drunk)
Legally that is generally the case. If one is an active participant and is aware of what is going on at the time, that is not legally rape. The standards tend to be unaware of their environment and what is happening.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That would seem to lead us to: "it's not rape if the other party's really drunk*"?

(*Willing, but really, really drunk)

Your interpretation of what psion said might lead to that, but not what psion proposed. Unless you're' trying to imply that being raped should be a crime. He never said anything that would imply he want's to make being a rape victim a crime. And his proposal is that being drunk makes you more responsible for a crime you've committed.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:35 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't believe you.




And I don't either.
I appreciate that you're just joking here, but I think it's important to realise that the (mostly) mythical split-personality is not schizophrenia. Inasmuch as it exists, it is dissociative identity disorder. Pop-culture "split personality", especially when used as a joke, minimises and marginalises a serious mental condition that affects the lives of millions of people.

Okay, killjoy moment over.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Pop-culture "split personality", especially when used as a joke, minimises and marginalises a serious mental condition that affects the lives of millions of people.
If you say that my humour is piss weak then I will accept that criticism and bow my head in shame. But please don't say that we are not allowed to try to see a funny aspect to what is a serious affliction.

I am reminded that WC Fields once managed to find some humour in blindness (and nobody needs to be told how terrible it is to be blind):
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I AGREE
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:43 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you say that my humour is piss weak then I will accept that criticism and bow my head in shame. But please don't say that we are not allowed to try to see a funny aspect to what is a serious affliction.
I was asking you to be accurate and not to perpetuate a false stereotype of mental illness, but now that you mention it hell yeah I'll double down on that. Using mental illness as the butt of jokes marginalises and stigmatises sufferers, who already have to go through hell because society as a whole has a frankly medieval attitude towards them. I can't stop you from making jokes about whatever you like, but I can point out that certain types of joke-making causes direct harm to sufferers by perpetuating a culture of stereotype and stigma.

Okay, killjoy moment really over this time. Also, your humour is piss weak.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:53 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I was asking you to be accurate and not to perpetuate a false stereotype of mental illness, but now that you mention it hell yeah I'll double down on that.
Thanks for reminding me that we live in an era of political correctness where no word may ever be spoken in jest lest somebody gets offended.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:16 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Thanks for reminding me that we live in an era of political correctness where no word may ever be spoken in jest lest somebody gets offended.
Not even an original or interesting objection.

D-
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Old Today, 12:31 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I wonder what will be the first real country to do so.

Poutine > Putin
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