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Tags diseases , measles , vaccination

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Old 19th April 2012, 05:56 PM   #1
Ian
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Measles returning

Measles cases, once considered obsolete in the U.S. are rising:

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...011/?hpt=hp_c2

Quote:
And then some woo-woo types said that vaccines are bad. This is what happens as a result.

Last edited by Ian; 19th April 2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 19th April 2012, 06:08 PM   #2
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I was about to start the same thread but you beat me to it.

Here's the article I was reading:

U.S. Measles Cases, Outbreaks Quadruple in 2011

It's just starting to make a comeback in the US, but European countries are a few years ahead of us:

Quote:
Vaccine refusal is more common in Europe than in the U.S. The result: more than 37,000 measles cases in Europe last year. Five countries account for 90% of the cases: France, Italy, Romania, Spain, and Germany.

Nine out of 10 U.S. measles cases could be linked either to a U.S. resident who was infected in a foreign country or to foreign visitors to the U.S. Many of these travelers imported measles from Europe.

Thanks to high vaccination rates in the 1990s, the U.S. eliminated year-round measles transmission in 2000. But the current spike in cases threatens that achievement.

Schuchat pointed to France, which was down to about 40 measles cases per year. Suddenly that went to 604 cases in 2008, over 5,000 cases in 2010, and over 15,000 cases in 2011.

"You can go from a small number to a very large number of measles cases very quickly," Schuchat warned.
You can see how it can snowball from a small number to a very large number in just a few years.
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Old 19th April 2012, 06:14 PM   #3
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Cue anti-vaxxer insisting it must be due to poor hygiene and bad nutrition.
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Old 19th April 2012, 06:48 PM   #4
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At the height of the whole anti-vax nonsense, in 2000, I went to a new university. They looked at my immunization record, told me that my measles shot was out of date (I had just turned 31, so it had been 30 years), and told me to go to the health clinic to get an MMR. So I did so with full confidence that the anti-vax claims were nonsense.
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Old 19th April 2012, 06:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
At the height of the whole anti-vax nonsense, in 2000, I went to a new university. They looked at my immunization record, told me that my measles shot was out of date (I had just turned 31, so it had been 30 years), and told me to go to the health clinic to get an MMR. So I did so with full confidence that the anti-vax claims were nonsense.
Just an FYI from a compulsive information person. It's not exactly that the MMRs go "out of date".

First, an MMR so far appears to provide lifetime immunity. But the failure rate is less if people get two doses. So everyone needs two doses unless they had measles.

Second, for those vaccinated before 1968 (in the US, dates may differ in different countries), a killed vaccine was used. That vaccine immunity does wear off over time. 30 years before 2000 was about that time frame so perhaps you had had the killed vaccine. You might also have only had one MMR when 2 are recommended.

And if anyone is interested, for the majority of people on the planet born before 1957, they most likely had measles. It's that contagious. The first vaccine in the US was introduced in 1963. So some people born between 1956 and '63 also had measles but it would take a blood test or a documented physician diagnosis to be certain.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 19th April 2012 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 19th April 2012, 07:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just an FYI from a compulsive information person. It's not exactly that the MMRs go "out of date".

First, an MMR so far appears to provide lifetime immunity. But the failure rate is less if people get two doses. So everyone needs two doses unless they had measles.

Second, for those vaccinated before 1968 (in the US, dates may differ in different countries), a killed vaccine was used. That vaccine immunity does wear off over time. 30 years before 2000 was about that time frame so perhaps you had had the killed vaccine. You might also have only had one MMR when 2 are recommended.

And if anyone is interested, for the majority of people on the planet born before 1957, they most likely had measles. It's that contagious. The first vaccine in the US was introduced in 1963. So some people born between 1956 and '63 also had measles but it would take a blood test or a documented physician diagnosis to be certain.
Thanks. It's cool to have good scientific info.
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Old 19th April 2012, 07:53 PM   #7
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I'm so weary of these stories. It's really sad that we have to go through these cycles of essentially eliminating these diseases only to have a major comeback. The irony is that we can eliminate some vaccines that only have humans as their reservoir only if we are successfully enough in a vaccine program. Thanks again Skeptic Ginger for the good info
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Old 19th April 2012, 08:45 PM   #8
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Thank you for the information Skeptic Ginger. I'll have to make sure that my husband and I check our MMR vaccines and get a second dose if necessary.

The results of the antivax movement are becoming rather disturbing.
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Old 20th April 2012, 02:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And if anyone is interested, for the majority of people on the planet born before 1957, they most likely had measles. It's that contagious.
Surprisingly, one of the infected from the CDC report was 84 years old!

It looks likes all these cases were imported form other countries, so the nuts here in the USA are not the source of the problem. Lots of cases were imported from France, so it's there nutjobs that seem to be a major source. A lot of cases from India too.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:37 AM   #10
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When I was on the faculty of FSU, every couple of years some student would show up with measles, and then every student and faculty member would have to get a damned MMR inoculation. It should go without saying that no effective records were kept of who got inoculated. Also, every year came with insurances that those inoculated wouldn't have to get it the next time, which was always a lie, of course. So I and all of us got enough MMR serum to choke Rush Limbaugh.

Still, though, that was in the 1990s, a bit early to blame anti-vaccine nut cases entirely. This kind of thing happens all the time for fairly simple and non-nefatious reasons. Bedbugs, for instance, have made a comeback due to the ban of DDT, even though DDT could be used effectively to eliminate bedbugs without posing an environmental risk. Just be careful with the stuff when used indoors and don't dump it on your fields by the ton.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
Surprisingly, one of the infected from the CDC report was 84 years old!

It looks likes all these cases were imported form other countries, so the nuts here in the USA are not the source of the problem. Lots of cases were imported from France, so it's there nutjobs that seem to be a major source. A lot of cases from India too.
It may not be that simple. The virus is clearly circulating and may be present asymptomatically in vaccinated individuals who can transmit it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9700638

Those who are fully vaccinated should benefit from a subclinical infection due to a boost to their immune system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2815970
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1161394
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
Surprisingly, one of the infected from the CDC report was 84 years old!

It looks likes all these cases were imported form other countries, so the nuts here in the USA are not the source of the problem. Lots of cases were imported from France, so it's there nutjobs that seem to be a major source. A lot of cases from India too.
We also had a death here in WA State in 1991 of a nurse that was born before 1957. However, those cases represent such rare circumstances it is not useful to vaccinate or test those older than ~54 for measles. You'd be testing millions in order to prevent a single case. In the case of the 84 yr old, it is possible that waning immune function overall contributed to the death. People with specific immune system deficiencies are not going to be protected unless others around them are immune.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th April 2012 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post
When I was on the faculty of FSU, every couple of years some student would show up with measles, and then every student and faculty member would have to get a damned MMR inoculation. It should go without saying that no effective records were kept of who got inoculated. Also, every year came with insurances that those inoculated wouldn't have to get it the next time, which was always a lie, of course. So I and all of us got enough MMR serum to choke Rush Limbaugh.
Weren't you capable of keeping your own records?

No offense but as someone who vaccinates thousands of people every year I'm not so empathetic with this attitude that vaccine record keeping is not an individual responsibility.

Originally Posted by epepke View Post
Still, though, that was in the 1990s, a bit early to blame anti-vaccine nut cases entirely. This kind of thing happens all the time for fairly simple and non-nefatious reasons. Bedbugs, for instance, have made a comeback due to the ban of DDT, even though DDT could be used effectively to eliminate bedbugs without posing an environmental risk. Just be careful with the stuff when used indoors and don't dump it on your fields by the ton.
We don't need to kill off the wild bird populations in order to manage bedbugs. Telling people to "be careful" unfortunately isn't an effective means of managing hazards like DDT.

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Old 20th April 2012, 07:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
It may not be that simple. The virus is clearly circulating and may be present asymptomatically in vaccinated individuals who can transmit it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9700638

Those who are fully vaccinated should benefit from a subclinical infection due to a boost to their immune system.
Quote:
Although viral transmission between protected individuals has never been directly demonstrated, the data describe a population in which protected but infectious persons could potentially be of epidemiological importance.
If one doesn't see transmitted cases or clinical disease, then effective protection has been achieved. If lack of natural boosting was a significant issue with measles, we would have already seen lots of cases in people born before 1957.


Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
None of those abstracts describes clinical infection or transmission. They simply describe antibody spikes after exposure.

There are several issues here. One, it's not unusual for antibodies to spike when an immune person is exposed to an organism. That's how the immune system prevents you from getting sick.

Two, with some organisms waning immunity is a problem and with others it is not. There's a lot of work going on now to determine if natural boosting (being exposed to cases) plays a role in preventing shingles after chicken pox infection. And it isn't clear why, (waning immunity, vaccine failure or new strains), people who've had 2 doses of MMR are getting mumps in some outbreaks.

Three, in some cases, infection occurs but no disease. Hepatitis B vaccine does not require boosters at this point even when antibodies become undetectable if they were detectable in the past. Vaccinated people occasionally turn up with core antibodies proving infection occurred but after 30+ years these vaccinated people are not being found with any active infection.

Four, there are a lot of infections where the antibodies simply are not protective. That's why HIV and hep C have no vaccine yet.

Five, vaccines and past infection don't always protect against new strains. There actually is a rare strain of hep b that the vaccine does not protect against. A unique strain of measles could turn up though I'm not aware one has been found.

And finally, as I mentioned, an individual's immune competency can always be the problem rather than not having antibodies against a pathogen.


If failure to naturally boost measles immunity is going to be a significant problem, we will begin to see more cases in people over 55 as vaccine levels fall below the threshold for herd immunity in more populations. I'm not aware we've seen it yet. But the more actual measles cases that occur, then those more rare infections begin to show up. The bottom line, we still don't need people over 55 to run out and get MMR boosters.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th April 2012 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 08:22 AM   #15
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Quote:
None of those abstracts describes clinical infection or transmission. They simply describe antibody spikes after exposure.
I was referring to subclinical infection where many individuals may not even know they got another exposure. Hence the antibody spikes that indicate such an exposure. The point is that the virus is still circulating and not eradicated therefore measles vaccination is still needed.

The problem with measuring duration of immunity is that it is mostly done by determining antibody levels which is inappropriate mostly since it is T cells that are important for immunological memory; T cells immunity is not normally measured and protective immunity for some diseases is due to T cells and not antibody.

HIV has no vaccine because the virus is hypervariable. In animal models, vaccines work by antibody if the vaccine and virus are homologous.

Hep C is weird. There are no correlates of immunity and protection from disease or infection AFAIK.
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Old 20th April 2012, 08:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post
When I was on the faculty of FSU, every couple of years some student would show up with measles, and then every student and faculty member would have to get a damned MMR inoculation. It should go without saying that no effective records were kept of who got inoculated. Also, every year came with insurances that those inoculated wouldn't have to get it the next time, which was always a lie, of course. So I and all of us got enough MMR serum to choke Rush Limbaugh.

Still, though, that was in the 1990s, a bit early to blame anti-vaccine nut cases entirely. This kind of thing happens all the time for fairly simple and non-nefatious reasons. Bedbugs, for instance, have made a comeback due to the ban of DDT, even though DDT could be used effectively to eliminate bedbugs without posing an environmental risk. Just be careful with the stuff when used indoors and don't dump it on your fields by the ton.
When I was doing research on the whole MMR-Wakefield scam, I am fairly certain that there was some some documentary about a child who presented with autism around the time of their jabs in one of the Scandinavian countries.
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Old 20th April 2012, 11:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tatyana View Post
When I was doing research on the whole MMR-Wakefield scam, I am fairly certain that there was some some documentary about a child who presented with autism around the time of their jabs in one of the Scandinavian countries.
Autism was previously diagnosed when the kids became social, about the age of 15-18 month vaccinations. The relationship was coincidental as we now know because autism can now be diagnosed earlier.
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Old 20th April 2012, 11:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Autism was previously diagnosed when the kids became social, about the age of 15-18 month vaccinations. The relationship was coincidental as we now know because autism can now be diagnosed earlier.
Yes, but this pre-dated Wakefield, and some think he got some of his ideas from this.
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Old 20th April 2012, 11:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
I was referring to subclinical infection where many individuals may not even know they got another exposure. Hence the antibody spikes that indicate such an exposure. The point is that the virus is still circulating and not eradicated therefore measles vaccination is still needed.
Not if transmission and/or clinical infection is not occurring.

Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
The problem with measuring duration of immunity is that it is mostly done by determining antibody levels which is inappropriate mostly since it is T cells that are important for immunological memory; T cells immunity is not normally measured and protective immunity for some diseases is due to T cells and not antibody.
Duration of immunity is also measured by following epidemiology of disease in a vaccinated population.

Vaccinees without detectable circulating antibody more than 6 months after the last does of hep B vaccine are considered immune if they had detectable antibody previously (as you are describing). In addition, if you boost them, within a year their levels will likely be undetectable again. Some of the initial cohort of vaccine recipients have developed core antibody indicating sub clinical infection while none of them have developed disease. So detectable circulating antibody is not an absolute measure of immunity but we still know people are protected because epidemiological studies indicate they are.
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Old 20th April 2012, 11:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tatyana View Post
Yes, but this pre-dated Wakefield, and some think he got some of his ideas from this.
He may have. Be he also got his ideas from a motive to license and sell his own version of measles vaccine.
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Old 20th April 2012, 11:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He may have. Be he also got his ideas from a motive to license and sell his own version of measles vaccine.
As well as a patent to detect the measles virus in body fluids and tissues, including gut biopsies.

Ironically, a month before he published the damaging paper that shall not be named, he had a PhD candidate student in his lab who was using his new kits to find the measles virus in all of the unnecessary biopsies of gut tissue *etc* (spinal taps on those poor children).

The PhD student didn't find the measles virus in any of the samples.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/nick-chadwick.htm

This is the issue with the whole MMR thing, he said that the measles virus, but ONLY the virus found in the MMR jab, not from catching measles or from a single jab, would cause a bowel condition that would lead to autism.

How it has spiraled into such utter rubbish is beyond me.
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Old 20th April 2012, 01:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just an FYI from a compulsive information person. It's not exactly that the MMRs go "out of date".

First, an MMR so far appears to provide lifetime immunity. But the failure rate is less if people get two doses. So everyone needs two doses unless they had measles.

Second, for those vaccinated before 1968 (in the US, dates may differ in different countries), a killed vaccine was used. That vaccine immunity does wear off over time. 30 years before 2000 was about that time frame so perhaps you had had the killed vaccine. You might also have only had one MMR when 2 are recommended.

And if anyone is interested, for the majority of people on the planet born before 1957, they most likely had measles. It's that contagious. The first vaccine in the US was introduced in 1963. So some people born between 1956 and '63 also had measles but it would take a blood test or a documented physician diagnosis to be certain.
I was born in 1955, and have never had an MMR vaccine. However, I had both measles and mumps as a small child (so I was told by my mother. I don't remember either) AFAIK, I have never had rubella.
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Old 20th April 2012, 01:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tatyana View Post
As well as a patent to detect the measles virus in body fluids and tissues, including gut biopsies.

Ironically, a month before he published the damaging paper that shall not be named, he had a PhD candidate student in his lab who was using his new kits to find the measles virus in all of the unnecessary biopsies of gut tissue *etc* (spinal taps on those poor children).

The PhD student didn't find the measles virus in any of the samples.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/nick-chadwick.htm

This is the issue with the whole MMR thing, he said that the measles virus, but ONLY the virus found in the MMR jab, not from catching measles or from a single jab, would cause a bowel condition that would lead to autism.

How it has spiraled into such utter rubbish is beyond me.
Peoples desire to believe runs far ahead of their ability to fact check.
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Old 20th April 2012, 01:56 PM   #24
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I don't understand why there's the choice of opting out of vaccines.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm all for civil rights and personal liberty when they aren't directly killing children, but don't we lock people up for being criminally irresponsible and doing stupid things that lead to accidental deaths and injury?
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Old 20th April 2012, 02:26 PM   #25
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I was watching a slide-show of some Victorian postcards mainly dealing with the police force. One of them was an anti-vax propaganda shot.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th April 2012, 02:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was watching a slide-show of some Victorian postcards mainly dealing with the police force. One of them was an anti-vax propaganda shot.
I don't know what you are talking about but I'm curious. What postcard was this and what do Victorian postcards have to do with vaccines?
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Weren't you capable of keeping your own records? :roll eyes:
I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts.

t tried. The choices were to get vaccinated again meat-market style in the gymnasium, or not get vaccinated in the few days they required it, accept the unpaid leave of absence, and then get reinstated. I could have pushed it, but I would have had to go through some sort of adversarial legal process to get back pay. At a professor's salary, it just isn't worth it.

Quote:
No offense but as someone who vaccinates thousands of people every year I'm not so empathetic with this attitude that vaccine record keeping is not an individual responsibility.
No offense, but you don't seem to be rather staggeringly and smugly naïve about what it's like to be on the business end of a bureaucratic system.

You remind me of a nurse at a facility I had experience who admonished one of the old ladies to swing her feet before getting out of bed—in cheerful defiance of the fact that the top surfaces of all the beds were a mere 18 inches from the floor.

This is a special kind of stupidity, as smug as it is profound.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:13 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I don't understand why there's the choice of opting out of vaccines.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm all for civil rights and personal liberty when they aren't directly killing children, but don't we lock people up for being criminally irresponsible and doing stupid things that lead to accidental deaths and injury?
The problem here, MarkCorrigan, is that your question makes us confront whether we should license parenthood. No, I'm not kidding either. It's like diverse dystopian futures we have seen in science fiction.

Determining whether to refuse your own children vaccines is going to turn into a legal battle. It is already a culture war.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I was born in 1955, and have never had an MMR vaccine. However, I had both measles and mumps as a small child (so I was told by my mother. I don't remember either) AFAIK, I have never had rubella.
You can get a rubella titer to see if you've had a case without being aware of it. It's not something necessarily recommended unless you are going to be around pregnant women like someone working in an OB clinic. Or if a rubella outbreak were to occur you might want to have the titer.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:22 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post
I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts.

t tried. The choices were to get vaccinated again meat-market style in the gymnasium, or not get vaccinated in the few days they required it, accept the unpaid leave of absence, and then get reinstated. I could have pushed it, but I would have had to go through some sort of adversarial legal process to get back pay. At a professor's salary, it just isn't worth it.

No offense, but you don't seem to be rather staggeringly and smugly naïve about what it's like to be on the business end of a bureaucratic system.

You remind me of a nurse at a facility I had experience who admonished one of the old ladies to swing her feet before getting out of bed—in cheerful defiance of the fact that the top surfaces of all the beds were a mere 18 inches from the floor.

This is a special kind of stupidity, as smug as it is profound.
I have to deal with people every week that don't have a clue when their last tetanus shot was or whether they've had their hep B vaccine series. I'm sorry but I'm nice to my patients in person. Here I express my opinion more honestly and I have little empathy for adults who still expect mommy to take care of their health care record keeping.

It's a false analogy to claim this has anything to do with the patient care example you cited. It has to do with personal responsibility and blaming others for something you were capable of doing yourself.

This is also different from people who just don't think it is a priority to know their vaccine status. I don't fault people for having a different personal value as long as they don't turn around and blame the health care provider for not keeping the records for them.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th April 2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
....
Determining whether to refuse your own children vaccines is going to turn into a legal battle. It is already a culture war.
And yet you cannot feed your kids an all lettuce diet or not send them to school (or homeschool). We make a number of legal demands on parents. Vaccines should be seen as another legal demand, IMO, akin to feeding your kids, but obviously it isn't a unanimous opinion.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a false analogy to claim this has anything to do with the patient care example you cited. It has to do with personal responsibility and blaming others for something you were capable of doing yourself.
He DID do it. Didn't you read his post? And I have to say that it was, if not obvious, then implied that he did his part in his FIRST post. You're blaming him and being snotty when there is nothing to blame him for.

HE kept records. The school did not. The school DID NOT ACCEPT his records, and therefore required him to get vaccinated again. Thus, he got vaccinated again. What is hard about this?

I believe you that most people don't keep records. He is not one of those people.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:42 PM   #33
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Also, I agree very strongly that vaccines should be mandatory to enter school, with the only exception being compromised immune system.

It's one of the only issues I get really heated over.

I say, if you don't want to vaccinate your kids, great! Homeschool them. Choices should come with consequences, and there should be no excuse for exposing other children to a disease that could kill them.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by elipse View Post
He DID do it. Didn't you read his post? And I have to say that it was, if not obvious, then implied that he did his part in his FIRST post. You're blaming him and being snotty when there is nothing to blame him for.

HE kept records. The school did not. The school DID NOT ACCEPT his records, and therefore required him to get vaccinated again. Thus, he got vaccinated again. What is hard about this?

I believe you that most people don't keep records. He is not one of those people.
We don't see it the same way. It happens.
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:05 PM   #35
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I'm not sure there are two (legitimate) ways to see

"I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts."

I should probably just let this go, but if you can't admit you're wrong about something so obvious as this, and have to say "we see it different ways," I can't have faith that you'll admit you're wrong about anything, and admitting you're wrong is a cornerstone of being a skeptic, no?

Anyway, this is off topic, so I probably won't respond again. Just wanted to mention it because "we see it different ways" (along with my favourite, "we'll just have to agree to disagree") is used so often to avoid continuing the discussion when someone feels like they might be "losing."

(Plus I thought your posts were rude, and being rude isn't okay even if you're right. And you weren't.)
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Old 20th April 2012, 08:06 PM   #36
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If I answer properly it will just end up in AAH. So I won't. You are posting off topic.
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Old 20th April 2012, 08:14 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by elipse View Post
Also, I agree very strongly that vaccines should be mandatory to enter school, with the only exception being compromised immune system.
Isn't that the way it is? My schools required that I got my shots.
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Old 20th April 2012, 09:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
Isn't that the way it is? My schools required that I got my shots.
Not everywhere. California has what is called the "Personal Belief Exemption" or PBE which allows people to avoid vaccinations. This is thought to have contributed to the spike in pertussis back in 2010.
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Old 21st April 2012, 02:05 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Weak Kitten View Post
I don't know what you are talking about but I'm curious. What postcard was this and what do Victorian postcards have to do with vaccines?
Smallpox vaccination was made mandatory in 1853 or children up to 3 months and then to 14 years old in 1867. So we have had mandatory vaccination in the past but it came with public protest.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/con...tion-movements
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Old 21st April 2012, 05:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Not everywhere. California has what is called the "Personal Belief Exemption" or PBE which allows people to avoid vaccinations. This is thought to have contributed to the spike in pertussis back in 2010.
I did not know that. I was forced to wear a uniform at my public school with no option of exemption, but they apparently would have allowed me to come in without vaccinations? That is ridiculous. How long have they allowed this PBE?
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