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Tags abstinence , abstinence education , sex education issues , Teresa Manning , Trump administration

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Old 19th July 2017, 04:09 PM   #41
Minoosh
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Please, give teenagers easy access to contraception, including reliable information on the effectiveness of various measures.

The reason is, many of them will have sex, no matter what adults tell them.
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Old 19th July 2017, 06:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Was thinking exactly the same. Rock n roll, poodle skirts, chrome finned gas guzlers and mom's apple pie.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Please, give teenagers easy access to contraception, including reliable information on the effectiveness of various measures.

The reason is, many of them will have sex, no matter what adults tell them.
First of all, I agree with you 100%. I want teens to have easy access to good information about sex and reproduction. I know mine did because I taught them myself. When my kids entered their dating years, they knew they could access contraception as easy as just asking us.

My question is: Why should the Federal Government be involved in this very much at all? Seems to me a State issue and even more so a local municipality/school district issue. Even more so than those: a parental issue.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:18 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
My question is: Why should the Federal Government be involved in this very much at all? Seems to me a State issue and even more so a local municipality/school district issue. Even more so than those: a parental issue.
For the same reason the Federal government does most of what it does: at some point the States screwed up badly enough to warrant stepping in.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
My question is: Why should the Federal Government be involved in this very much at all? Seems to me a State issue and even more so a local municipality/school district issue. Even more so than those: a parental issue.
How about, not all parents are enlightened as you, let alone whole states or school districts. And I do want access to the information as available as possible. Not just for pregnancy but for STDs. I don't want information withheld because parents organize against it at a local level.

Public health concerns are not IMO a local issue. Threats to public health do not neatly divide themselves into jurisdictional categories. That's why we want all children to be vaccinated against measles - not based on parental whims, town ordinance or school district policies. There might be limited exceptions allowed if you vigorously oppose vaccinations, but IMO we don't need to broaden these exceptions. In grade school I had a classmate who was pulled out of health class because his Christian Scientist parents were against health education. You want more of that?
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:45 AM   #46
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Exactly. Vaccinations and basic sex education are both things that all young people need access to at the appropriate time for the health of society. All young people, not just the ones with the enlightened/responsible/capable parents.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:56 AM   #47
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
How about, not all parents are enlightened as you, let alone whole states or school districts. And I do want access to the information as available as possible. Not just for pregnancy but for STDs. I don't want information withheld because parents organize against it at a local level.

Public health concerns are not IMO a local issue. Threats to public health do not neatly divide themselves into jurisdictional categories. That's why we want all children to be vaccinated against measles - not based on parental whims, town ordinance or school district policies. There might be limited exceptions allowed if you vigorously oppose vaccinations, but IMO we don't need to broaden these exceptions. In grade school I had a classmate who was pulled out of health class because his Christian Scientist parents were against health education. You want more of that?
I do want more of that, yes.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do want more of that, yes.
Because for you, the highest, or at least higher value, is local autonomy. Because you are sincerely subscribing to an ideology that limits the power of state actors over autonomous units, aka families.

But it's just not a given that parents know better than, say, the CDC when it comes to vaccinations. It's not a given that parents' preferences reflect what's actually best for their children. I want your average 15-year-old to know certain things about sex, and I don't want it dependent on a parent's position. The possibility of bringing a new person into the world should be understood thoroughly by teenagers. At this point I want to do what's best for the teens and their children - even if their families don't want this information taught. I don't think parents own their teenage children, and I want those "children" to get a decent education in biology. Not a glossed-over version that allows parents to institutionalize their own passion for ignorance.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
First of all, I agree with you 100%. I want teens to have easy access to good information about sex and reproduction. I know mine did because I taught them myself. When my kids entered their dating years, they knew they could access contraception as easy as just asking us.

My question is: Why should the Federal Government be involved in this very much at all? Seems to me a State issue and even more so a local municipality/school district issue. Even more so than those: a parental issue.

Because when teens have children they usually access federal programs such as WIC and CHIP to support their children thus encouraging a cycle of poverty. It's less expensive to provide contraceptive methods. States vary on resources so if you are relying on funding strictly from state budgets that means the teen populations that need birth control methods the most won't have access. As for it being a parental issue, it is and Title X promotes and encourages teens to have parents participate in their healthcare decisions however not all teens have this kind of relationship with their parents. In those cases Title X promises confidential reproductive health care services.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post

But it's just not a given that parents know better than, say, the CDC when it comes to vaccinations. .
I don't think they do either. I expressed as much in the Charlie gard thread.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think they do either. I expressed as much in the Charlie gard thread.
I chalk that up to you not recognizing (or understanding) that individual rights don't include the right to impact other people's rights (for example, not getting a vaccine puts other people at risk), and, in the case of Gard, not everyone accepts the parents' absolute rights over the child. There are many examples where the state has to intervene in said absolute parental rights because the child's rights matter and there is no absolute parental right to damage your children.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I chalk that up to you not recognizing (or understanding) that individual rights don't include the right to impact other people's rights (for example, not getting a vaccine puts other people at risk), and, in the case of Gard, not everyone accepts the parents' absolute rights over the child. There are many examples where the state has to intervene in said absolute parental rights because the child's rights matter and there is no absolute parental right to damage your children.
In the gard thread I said the idea of parents being the decision makers of the child's best interest was stupid.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In the gard thread I said the idea of parents being the decision makers of the child's best interest was stupid.
That addresses half of what I said, what about the other half?
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That addresses half of what I said, what about the other half?
I don't care.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't care.
Apparently you did here:
Originally Posted by Minoosh
But it's just not a given that parents know better than, say, the CDC when it comes to vaccinations. .
Originally Posted by Bob
I don't think they do either. I expressed as much in the Charlie gard thread.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Apparently you did here:
I do care about discussion of if parents are dumb. I interpret the rest of your post to be about other stuff (like liability). I don't care.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do care about discussion of if parents are dumb. I interpret the rest of your post to be about other stuff (like liability). I don't care.
No, I said nothing nor meant anything about liability.

I was addressing the issue of an individual's rights vs the impact that has on another individual's rights. Vaccinations are a classic example where someone's Libertarian beliefs conflict with someone's Progressive beliefs. The world is not simple and not black and white.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:36 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, I said nothing nor meant anything about liability.

I was addressing the issue of an individual's rights vs the impact that has on another individual's rights. Vaccinations are a classic example where someone's Libertarian beliefs conflict with someone's Progressive beliefs. The world is not simple and not black and white.
Yea, I don't care to debate that tonight.i got a few other things on my plate.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:41 PM   #59
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A state has an interest to raise children to become persons autonomous from their families; families have an interest to bind children to the family fortunes.
This is a conflict that has always existed in human societies. And, of course, sometimes one, sometimes the other ideology has the upper hand.

But because sexual activity explicitly transcends family matters (hopefully), it is critical that teenager are mostly on the same level, educationally: you don't want people to cooperate on a job that only one (or none) of them knows how it works.
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Old 20th July 2017, 10:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do want more of that, yes.
The kid pulled from health classes was the child of a state Supreme Court justice. This was in the '70s. IIRC the class/unit wasn't even about sex education, just topics like nutrition and digestion.

IMO, in the age of smartphones, teenagers have access to all the facts they need; they can do the research. But it doesn't help to have political appointees who are afraid to teach how mammals reproduce, or how contagious diseases are spread. To me this is just straight-up biology, and a subject wholly appropriate in middle school or high school. There's no need to fear this information, or to make sure political appointees conform to certain dogma.

I post this old clip when I have an excuse. It blows me away that all the stuff people knew in the '70s is now repressed by self-righteous individuals who insist they have a right to ignorance and the right to keep their children ignorant even when these children are sexually mature. I'd like to think that's a slender proportion of parents but I'm not so sure.

Last edited by Minoosh; 20th July 2017 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 21st July 2017, 03:17 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The kid pulled from health classes was the child of a state Supreme Court justice. This was in the '70s. IIRC the class/unit wasn't even about sex education, just topics like nutrition and digestion.

IMO, in the age of smartphones, teenagers have access to all the facts they need; they can do the research. But it doesn't help to have political appointees who are afraid to teach how mammals reproduce, or how contagious diseases are spread. To me this is just straight-up biology, and a subject wholly appropriate in middle school or high school. There's no need to fear this information, or to make sure political appointees conform to certain dogma.

I post this old clip when I have an excuse. It blows me away that all the stuff people knew in the '70s is now repressed by self-righteous individuals who insist they have a right to ignorance and the right to keep their children ignorant even when these children are sexually mature. I'd like to think that's a slender proportion of parents but I'm not so sure.
How dare you suggest we should let children know about sinful science!
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Old 22nd July 2017, 02:38 PM   #62
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Mod WarningAbout two-thirds of this thread has been shifted to AAH. While I do understand how talking past each other, bickering, and endless quibbles over definitions can be such compelling pastimes, it is worth noting that a basic discussion of logic and argument is not the topic of this thread. I'm sure folks could start such a thread if they were truly interested in that subject, but in this thread it was just annoying and not at all aligned with the topic.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 05:02 PM   #63
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The topic at hand is ...
Abstinence Only and Birth Control Skeptic appointed to top women's health jobs in HHS


This is plainly nuts. I have two daughters and the frank conversations would make your eyes water. Nevertheless, the conservatives seem to want to repress any sexuality on the part (scuse pun) of a daughter as though they are not a sexual being.

It is a strange misogynistic attitude, but there it is. Can I explain it? Nope.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 07:56 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
in practice, Abstinence teaching amounts to:

only oral and anal sex.
You mean, The Loophole?
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Old 22nd July 2017, 08:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
You mean, The Loophole?
Right, that was hilarious.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 08:21 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
You mean, The Loophole?
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