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Tags james oberg , Kenneth Arnold , UFO sightings , ufos

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Old 26th July 2017, 01:28 AM   #281
Cosmic Yak
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Quote:
The Belgian Air Force was unable to identify neither the nature nor the origin of the phenomena.
How is this proof of aliens?
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Old 26th July 2017, 01:31 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
This is the same General De Brouwer conducting the international press conference pointing out the radar lock-on on the F-16's radar screen of the UFO that night. The diamond proved the object in the sky that night, which was also visually confirmed and by ground-based radars.
So it is the same one. Excellent.
Please quote him saying the radar contacts were proven to be alien spacecraft.
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Old 26th July 2017, 01:45 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Thrusters had nothing to do with the object's movements.
So.
We have a video of a speck moving in one direction, slowly.
There's a flash to the lower right, then the speck moves rapidly in a different direction, followed shortly by another speck moving rapidly in the same direction.

But you assert there's no thruster (or the other possibility of simple venting).

Guess your assertion wins!

Space aliens it is!
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Old 26th July 2017, 09:47 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How is this proof of aliens?

The verified data provided by the Belgian Air Force had summed it up. The lock-on diamond proved that there was an object in the sky, which was confirmed by ground-based radar and witnessed by observers on the ground. Three sources of information confirming the object in the sky that night that was not an aircraft which was proven by its extreme maneuvering capability.

The data was analyzed by the military and radar experts who confirmed the object in the sky that night and the lead F-16 pilot also confirmed his radar contact was also tracked by his wingman and ground-based radar. Remember, witnesses on the ground observed the object and later, ground-based radar confirmed the object that witnesses were observing. That is why the F-16's were scrambled to investigate.

The F-16's were guided to the object whereas they own radars tracked the object. In other words, there can be no denying there was an object in the sky that night as confirmed by airborne and ground-based radar and ground-based observers.

Now, what the object was could not have been an aircraft or balloon, which were ruled out by the investigation because of its extreme maneuver performance and it is that extreme maneuvering performance depicted in the data the proves the object was not that of mankind because mankind has no such aircraft. The incident that night was also published in the Wall Street Journal. The target speed changes within seconds from 150 to 970 knots, altitude coming down from 9000 to 5000 feet, then up to 11000 feet, and, shortly after, down to ground level. From this results a "break lock." The object also sent jamming signals at the aircraft.

Despite the object exceeding the speed of sound there was no sonic boom and its airspeed is clearly depicted in the radar data provided by the Belgian Air Force so the facts we have are:

1. The object was a real craft in the sky that night as confirmed by airborne and ground-based radars and observers on the ground

2. The extreme maneuvering performance rules out any aircraft produced by mankind

3. The fact the object produced no sonic boom also turns the page toward the ET explanation.

4. Thousands of people saw the object during sightings that lasted many months, and the object was also sighted in other countries during that time frame that spanned a number of months.

No aircraft in existence can duplicate such maneuvers nor fly at supersonic speeds and not generate a sonic boom. Since we don't have such a flying vehicle, whose triangular vehicle was it?

.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 26th July 2017 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 26th July 2017, 10:32 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The verified data provided by the Belgian Air Force had summed it up. The lock-on diamond proved that there was an object in the sky, which was confirmed by ground-based radar and witnessed by observers on the ground. Three sources of information confirming the object in the sky that night that was not an aircraft which was proven by its extreme maneuvering capability.

The data was analyzed by the military and radar experts who confirmed the object in the sky that night and the lead F-16 pilot also confirmed his radar contact was also tracked by his wingman and ground-based radar. Remember, witnesses on the ground observed the object and later, ground-based radar confirmed the object that witnesses were observing. That is why the F-16's were scrambled to investigate.

The F-16's were guided to the object whereas they own radars tracked the object. In other words, there can be no denying there was an object in the sky that night as confirmed by airborne and ground-based radar and ground-based observers.

Now, what the object was could not have been an aircraft or balloon, which were ruled out by the investigation because of its extreme maneuver performance and it is that extreme maneuvering performance depicted in the data the proves the object was not that of mankind because mankind has no such aircraft. The incident that night was also published in the Wall Street Journal. The target speed changes within seconds from 150 to 970 knots, altitude coming down from 9000 to 5000 feet, then up to 11000 feet, and, shortly after, down to ground level. From this results a "break lock." The object also sent jamming signals at the aircraft.

Despite the object exceeding the speed of sound there was no sonic boom and its airspeed is clearly depicted in the radar data provided by the Belgian Air Force so the facts we have are:

1. The object was a real craft in the sky that night as confirmed by airborne and ground-based radars and observers on the ground

2. The extreme maneuvering performance rules out any aircraft produced by mankind

3. The fact the object produced no sonic boom also turns the page toward the ET explanation.

4. Thousands of people saw the object during sightings that lasted many months, and the object was also sighted in other countries during that time frame that spanned a number of months.

No aircraft in existence can duplicate such maneuvers nor fly at supersonic speeds and not generate a sonic boom. Since we don't have such a flying vehicle, whose triangular vehicle was it?

.
All you've written can be ignored in answering your last question which I've bolded. Your last question should be asked in this manner: Since we don't have such a flying vehicle, whose triangular vehicle was it? what was it? As I've stated before, you jump to conclusions. I doubt there's a skeptically minded person whom would not like definitive proof of ETs, but the way you and all the others present this argument isn't persuasive. What is, is physical evidence. Such as seeing said objects up close. Close enough to touch. Got any of that?

Last edited by Steve001; 26th July 2017 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 26th July 2017, 10:32 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So it is the same one. Excellent.
Please quote him saying the radar contacts were proven to be alien spacecraft.

In case you missed this video, jump to time line 1:25 to the end of the video. What does General De Brouwer say?


General De Brouwer Video Interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7psGj4M1ZI&t=17s


The rest of the Belgian UFO story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taGuuHv5Bsc
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Old 26th July 2017, 11:24 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Obviously. Ghosts don't need thrusters.
Neither do time travelers. They can move through time with no thrusters at all.
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Old 26th July 2017, 11:25 AM   #288
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Your preferred explanation depends heavily on the 'extreme maneuvering capability' of the F-16's radar contact. Can you address the anomaly in the data which shows the contact climbing at supersonic speed while showing its speed as 570 knots or less?
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Old 26th July 2017, 11:26 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The verified data provided by the Belgian Air Force had summed it up. [...]

.
That doesn't answer the question.
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Old 26th July 2017, 11:30 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Neither do time travelers. They can move through time with no thrusters at all.
Neither do witches. They can mess with the data.
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Old 26th July 2017, 12:20 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Neither do witches. They can mess with the data.
But unlike ETs, there is no evidence that witches even exist.

No. Wait. Time Travelers. Yeah! That's the ticket.
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Old 26th July 2017, 03:18 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
But unlike ETs, there is no evidence that witches even exist.

No. Wait. Time Travelers. Yeah! That's the ticket.
It's ghosts, I tell ya! Time travellers would still leave a radar shadow duh!
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Old 26th July 2017, 04:17 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's ghosts, I tell ya! Time travellers would still leave a radar shadow duh!
Witches have been proven in courts of law to exist. Courts of law have trials to determine fact. I win.
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Old 26th July 2017, 08:02 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The lock-on diamond proved that there was an object in the sky.
Yes and no.

Radar lock is fallible.The F-16AMs and F-16BMs flown by the Belgian Air Force uses the same AN/APG-66 Pulse Doppler X-Band Multi-Mode Weapons Radar that we used in our A4Ks after the Project Kahu refit. APG-66 was well known for getting "False lock", a condition sometimes brought about when the radar receives information from another friendly aircraft (possibly the wingman's F-16). It can also occur if the radar locks onto a spurious X-Band signal. for example, synthetic aperture radar (used in J-Stars and AWACS), weather monitoring, air traffic control, shipping traffic control, air defence tracking, and vehicle speed detection. When testing them on the ground, we were able to get a lock on the local TACAN transmitter. Its even been known for the radar to lock on a flock of birds or on dense ice crystals in storm clouds

Now, while I am not suggesting that any of these are the reason the Belgian Air Force's F-16 got a missile lock, I am pointing out that your blanket statement to the effect that missile lock PROVES that an aircraft or a UFO must have been there, is wrong. Its a good indication of the presence of an aircraft, but its not proof.
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:29 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Your preferred explanation depends heavily on the 'extreme maneuvering capability' of the F-16's radar contact. Can you address the anomaly in the data which shows the contact climbing at supersonic speed while showing its speed as 570 knots or less?

I can show the vertical movements at supersonic speed.

07 270 570 6000

11 210 570 10000

14 270 770 7000

18 290 1010 4000
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:36 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's ghosts, I tell ya! Time travellers would still leave a radar shadow duh!

Radar "ghost angels" have been ruled out, thanks to an Air Force study.


Quote:
Quantitative Aspects of Mirages

"According to a 1969 study by the Air Force Environmental Technical Applications Center, the conditions needed to produce the UFO-like effects attributed to inversions cannot exist in the Earth's atmosphere."

Menkello, F.V., "Quantitative Aspects of Mirages," USAF Environmental Technical Applications Center, 1969.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZS...irages&f=false

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Old 27th July 2017, 12:41 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes and no.

Radar lock is fallible.The F-16AMs and F-16BMs flown by the Belgian Air Force uses the same AN/APG-66 Pulse Doppler X-Band Multi-Mode Weapons Radar that we used in our A4Ks after the Project Kahu refit. APG-66 was well known for getting "False lock", a condition sometimes brought about when the radar receives information from another friendly aircraft (possibly the wingman's F-16). It can also occur if the radar locks onto a spurious X-Band signal. for example, synthetic aperture radar (used in J-Stars and AWACS), weather monitoring, air traffic control, shipping traffic control, air defence tracking, and vehicle speed detection. When testing them on the ground, we were able to get a lock on the local TACAN transmitter. Its even been known for the radar to lock on a flock of birds or on dense ice crystals in storm clouds

Now, while I am not suggesting that any of these are the reason the Belgian Air Force's F-16 got a missile lock, I am pointing out that your blanket statement to the effect that missile lock PROVES that an aircraft or a UFO must have been there, is wrong. Its a good indication of the presence of an aircraft, but its not proof.

In the Belgian UFO incident, that was not the case. As the lead F-16 pilot stated in his video interview, ground-based radar tracked the same UFO that he and wingman were tracking. There was no "buddy spike" calls during the encounter.
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:53 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
I can show the vertical movements at supersonic speed.





07 270 570 6000





11 210 570 10000





14 270 770 7000





18 290 1010 4000


That wasn't the question. Can you explain how supersonic changes in altitude were contemporaneous with subsonic speed readings? How does any object climb 4000 feet in 3 seconds at 550-570 knots?

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 27th July 2017 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 27th July 2017, 01:40 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That wasn't the question. Can you explain how supersonic changes in altitude were contemporaneous with subsonic speed readings? How does any object climb 4000 feet in 3 seconds at 550-570 knots?

I think I see what you mean now. It all has to do with the kind of radar that was in use, which was a Pulse-Doppler radar that measures velocity of an object as it approaches and pass by the radar and if you fly perpendicular to a Pulse-Doppler radar, you will not get an accurate airspeed measurement.

It reminds me of slant range error readings regarding an aircraft's DME.
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Old 27th July 2017, 02:13 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That wasn't the question. Can you explain how supersonic changes in altitude were contemporaneous with subsonic speed readings? How does any object climb 4000 feet in 3 seconds at 550-570 knots?

Okay.

Maybe it is time travelers.
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Old 27th July 2017, 03:06 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So it is the same one. Excellent.
Please quote him saying the radar contacts were proven to be alien spacecraft.
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
In case you missed this video, jump to time line 1:25 to the end of the video. What does General De Brouwer say?


General De Brouwer Video Interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7psGj4M1ZI&t=17s


The rest of the Belgian UFO story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taGuuHv5Bsc
Watched the first video. Nowhere does he say there was proof this was an alien spacecraft. Are you sure you linked to the right video?
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:06 PM   #302
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There was another ufo wave in Belgium in 1997.I saw it myself.
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:10 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Okay.

Maybe it is time travelers.
Zetas right again!
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Old 27th July 2017, 01:23 PM   #304
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Regarding the supposed F-16 pilot's "sighting" of a UFO, we have to remember that the F-16 pilot did not actually see a UFO at all. When Marc Hallet of "The Skeptic Report" actually interviewed the pilot and some of his fellow flyers, it was clear that they were all quite amused at the UFO hypothesis. If SOBEPS (Société Belge D'étude des Phénomènes Spatiaux, a Belgian UFO investigation group) had not turned this into a UFO flap, these alleged mysterious radar returns would have been labeled for what they were, a well understood phenomenon known as “dot angels”, a common occurrence where a back-scattered radar return is received from dry roll convection in a clear air atmospheric boundary layer. This radar phenomenon is also known as "Bragg Scattering".

Furthermore, the sudden apparent acceleration of a "dot angel" radar return is also a well known phenomenon. It happens when there are sudden changes in the convection architecture, the airmass from which the area where the return is coming will suddenly dissipate and the radar return will appear to accelerate dramatically and diminish suddenly. Its difficult to visualize how this happens, but the simplest analogy is a wave breaking on a beach. A wave comes towards the beach at, say 10 kph, but when it starts to break, the break point can shoot along the top of the wave at many times the speed of the wave, as much as 80 - 100 kph.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 27th July 2017 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 27th July 2017, 03:17 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Radar "ghost angels" have been ruled out, thanks to an Air Force study.
What about real ghosts?

Or real angels for that matter. Have you ruled out the idea that they were real angels?

Of course you haven't.

What else haven't you ruled out?
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Old 27th July 2017, 05:28 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Radar "ghost angels" have been ruled out, thanks to an Air Force study.
Of course, you mean "dot angels", however, I question this claim.

Firstly, there is no "Air Force" study that I can find, which rules out Bragg Scatter returns. If such a study exists, post it!

Secondly, by its very nature, there is no way to conclusively rule out Bragg Scatter returns. The conditions for such phenomena are transitory at best

Furthermore, there were several instances in this event of the returns freezing on the display, i.e. remaining in the same spot on the HUD while the F-16's turned and manoeuvred. When this happens, it is almost certainly caused by instrument failure. Lieutenant-Colonel Salmon from the Belgian Air Force Electronic War Centre stated this when he was interviewed for Science & Vie in 1992.
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Old 27th July 2017, 05:44 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Radar "ghost angels" have been ruled out, thanks to an Air Force study.
But did they rule out time travelers? Why not?

Makes you go 'hmm'.
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Old 1st August 2017, 01:39 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Also coming up to the 70th anniversary of the mis-identification a Project Mogul surveillance balloon as a UFO at Roswell.
yes, that's what the govt. said, anyway.

some people seem to believe everything the govt. says as long as it reinforces their belief system.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:28 PM   #309
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I'm not sure why the Arnold incident is considered the beginning rather than the Kareeta sighting in San Diego or the Texas airship sightings or even the stories going way back to Ezekiel, the Ramayana, etc....is it a matter of journalism or marketing or...?
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Old 1st August 2017, 07:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
yes, that's what the govt. said, anyway.

some people seem to believe everything the govt. says as long as it reinforces their belief system.
Of course, keeping in mind that it fits the evidence, whereas the evidence for crashed flying saucers and dead alien bodies is..... oh wait, that's right. There isn't any!
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Old 1st August 2017, 08:55 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, keeping in mind that it fits the evidence, whereas the evidence for crashed flying saucers and dead alien bodies is..... oh wait, that's right. There isn't any!
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Old 1st August 2017, 10:26 PM   #312
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
yes, that's what the govt. said, anyway.

some people seem to believe everything the govt. says as long as it reinforces their belief system.
Some people seem to disbelieve everything the govt. says as long as it contradicts their belief system.

Sensible people go with the evidence, and believe the government only when it does the same.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:10 AM   #313
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Anyone have any Idea why the leader or leaders of every single country in the world over the last 70 years agreed to not go public with all this evidence of extraterrestrial vehicles?


My view is actually that all these leaders have released all the evidence they have of extraterrestrial vehicles.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:21 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Maksutov View Post
I'm not sure why the Arnold incident is considered the beginning rather than the Kareeta sighting in San Diego or the Texas airship sightings or even the stories going way back to Ezekiel, the Ramayana, etc....is it a matter of journalism or marketing or...?
Most likely the emergence of a community of people interested in them.

Mysterious airships, foo fighters, and ghost rockets came and went without provoking the emergence of a community of UFOlogists. The difference for flying saucers was Ray Palmer and the USAF.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:31 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Anyone have any Idea why the leader or leaders of every single country in the world over the last 70 years agreed to not go public with all this evidence of extraterrestrial vehicles?
Simple enough: the fact that they miraculously managed unanimously to agree on something was so startling, astonishing and entirely unique in world history that nobody wants to be the spoilsport who ruins it.

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