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Old 27th October 2017, 12:08 PM   #161
GlennB
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Saved it to my desktop. Rotated it. Attached it here.
That's what I did, but saved it from my phone to the desktop before attaching it. On the desktop the orientation was correct. Oh well
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:09 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think the software is just *********** with you because you are bad mouthing their brethren.

Pick your sides carefully.
Eek. Might double-lock the doors tonight

eta: Googling the issue, it seems that vBulletin somehow 'knows' the correct orientation, based on something or other. When I tried both orientations here (in preview) they both came out upside-down. I hope my AV isn't as crap as vBulletin
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:20 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Eek. Might double-lock the doors tonight

eta: Googling the issue, it seems that vBulletin somehow 'knows' the correct orientation, based on something or other. When I tried both orientations here (in preview) they both came out upside-down. I hope my AV isn't as crap as vBulletin
Oh it knows. Trust me, it knows.

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Old 27th October 2017, 03:01 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Oh it knows. Trust me, it knows.


LOL... it can't get the better of me.

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Old 27th October 2017, 03:08 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
... but with the question "would the AV be allowed to nudge out onto the road in the face of possible oncoming traffic?".

We have to do that so often it's ridiculous. Practice and a little care, and we go on our way safely. Not sure how non-networked AVs will handle it.

Were I to your right in that pic, and traffic were stopped, I'd try to catch your eye then act as a "spotter" to let you know it was safe to pull across and head out. Not sure how that'd work with a robo-car.
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:06 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
That would take many hours work, just to get to a minimum standard. Then many more hours to get to a reasonable standard to handle driving an emergency vehicle.
Yes. As it is for most skilled jobs.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:44 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Driverless cars heading for approval in California:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...early-as-2018/
Btw, how we need it?
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Old 28th October 2017, 11:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Btw, how we need it?

I think Boston could use it more.

A few swaths of Florida are problematic as well.

Cali drivers are alright... unless it rains. Or there's hail, sleet or ice.
Or God forbid actual snow.

You know what... nevermind.


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Old 28th October 2017, 12:36 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Btw, how we need it?
It's not your culture, Kumar.
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:53 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Btw, how we need it?
Increased safety, fuel efficiency, less road congestion, car-sharing with all the attendant benefits, personal transport for those unable to drive. Etc.

I'm pretty cynical about whether it will ever get beyond certain very limited applications, but the idea is great.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:04 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Increased safety, fuel efficiency, less road congestion, car-sharing with all the attendant benefits, personal transport for those unable to drive. Etc.

I'm pretty cynical about whether it will ever get beyond certain very limited applications, but the idea is great.

I'm not, though I recognize that it will be gradual, and will take quite a while.

I think Joey got in trouble, for his strident insistence that... it'll happen, it'll happen really soon, and screw you folks that enjoy driving - you're gonna fall in line and you're gonna like it. Or else.

(Did he lose someone to a careless driver? It's the only thing I thought explained it.)
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Old 28th October 2017, 02:06 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I'm not, though I recognize that it will be gradual, and will take quite a while.

I think Joey got in trouble, for his strident insistence that... it'll happen, it'll happen really soon, and screw you folks that enjoy driving - you're gonna fall in line and you're gonna like it. Or else.

(Did he lose someone to a careless driver? It's the only thing I thought explained it.)
Could be, but it struck me that Joey went looking for arguments and created them for thrills when there weren't enough around.
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Old 28th October 2017, 04:18 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Increased safety, fuel efficiency, less road congestion, car-sharing with all the attendant benefits, personal transport for those unable to drive. Etc.
I'm fairly sure that part is wrong.

Everything I've seen indicates that road congestion goes up with driverless cars.

i.e. Current situation.

1. Person drives from home to work (one trip)
2. Person drives from work to home (one trip)

Driverless car situation.
1. Person drives from home to work (one trip)
2. Car drives from work to home or parking station (one trip)
3. Car drives from home or parking station to work (one trip)
4. Person drives home (one trip)

"Ride share" driverless car situation
1. Car drives to person's home (one trip)
2. Person drives to work (one trip)
3. Car drives off to park (or find another passenger) (one trip)
4. Car returns to pick up person (one trip)
5. Person drives home (one trip)
6. Car drives away to park or find another passenger (one trip)

I've had a conversation with a traffic modeler, where he explained the absolute disaster of self-driving cars in circumstances where an event ends at a specific time.

i.e. 10,000 people want to be collected from the concert (or football) venue.

Currently, all those people disperse on foot to a wide range of parking stations (or use public transport).

In the self driving car world, they're all trying to summon their cars, which are stuck in grid-lock in the square mile surrounding the venue.

It's going to be amusing to watch the consequences unfold.
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Old 28th October 2017, 04:42 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I'm fairly sure that part is wrong.

Everything I've seen indicates that road congestion goes up with driverless cars.

i.e. Current situation.

1. Person drives from home to work (one trip)
2. Person drives from work to home (one trip)

Driverless car situation.
1. Person drives from home to work (one trip)
2. Car drives from work to home or parking station (one trip)
3. Car drives from home or parking station to work (one trip)
4. Person drives home (one trip)

"Ride share" driverless car situation
1. Car drives to person's home (one trip)
2. Person drives to work (one trip)
3. Car drives off to park (or find another passenger) (one trip)
4. Car returns to pick up person (one trip)
5. Person drives home (one trip)
6. Car drives away to park or find another passenger (one trip)

I've had a conversation with a traffic modeler, where he explained the absolute disaster of self-driving cars in circumstances where an event ends at a specific time.

i.e. 10,000 people want to be collected from the concert (or football) venue.

Currently, all those people disperse on foot to a wide range of parking stations (or use public transport).

In the self driving car world, they're all trying to summon their cars, which are stuck in grid-lock in the square mile surrounding the venue.

It's going to be amusing to watch the consequences unfold.
That is the worst possibility. It might happen with no planning. What would be much better is if cars are replaced by mini buses. Then after that event ends mini buses turn up to take people home. Or even, for a major event, full size buses (that would normally take people to and from work) take you to your local suburb and then smaller vehicles take you home.

Something similar can happen taking people to work. You have buses (either mini or full size) take you either to the train station or to work, depending on the city.

One of the consequences of driverless cars is that most people would not own a car. So no need for garages. So turn them into granny flats. That means that the number of people who live in any region can go up. This would increase the number of people who want to use public transport, so this improves. As it is a better service more people are willing to use it. This is a positive feedback loop. One good thing about driverless public transport is that buses and taxis will be a lot cheaper to run. They can help pay their fixed costs by running at times when there is a demand for their services after business hours when drivers would not be normally available, such as after major events.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 05:38 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One of the consequences of driverless cars is that most people would not own a car.
[Not as mod]

I'm sorry to pick on one comment out of such an interesting post, but again, I don't agree that is a given.

The advantages of owning your own car are many, here are a few:

1. It is available when you want it, you don't have to book in advance, you don't have to wait in a queue for one to become available.

2. You can leave your stuff in it.

3. You can tow your trailer with it.

4. You can tow your boat with it.

5. It is as clean (or dirty) as you desire.

6. You can sleep in it if you want to.

I cannot agree that self-driving vehicles will replace private ownership of vehicles.

After all, it has been possible to hire vehicles and participate in "vehicle share" programs for a very long time now. Private ownership doesn't seem to have gone away.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:10 AM   #176
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Most of those advantages novaphile mentioned are not major things. For example if you knew that if you ordered a car it would arrive at a certain time the first advantage listed would be gone. I also think it is rare to see a car towing anything. No reason why hired driverless cars cannot do this.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:25 AM   #177
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a car-share, driver-less system could operate similar to Uber-sharing or electricity markets: prices depend on demand: if you are willing to arrive at/leave the event early/late, you will pay much less than if you want to be right on time.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:53 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
a car-share, driver-less system could operate similar to Uber-sharing or electricity markets: prices depend on demand: if you are willing to arrive at/leave the event early/late, you will pay much less than if you want to be right on time.
This would be true. It also suggests that going in the opposite direction to everyone else would be almost free. However the average cost of a ride should be much less as you are not paying for the driver. On the other hand you are paying extra for the senses. Hence an incentive for owners of driverless cars to share them.

I can also see mini buses becoming popular. They drive around a suburb, picking up passengers to take to their work. If work is a long distance away they would take them all to a train station.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:31 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I cannot agree that self-driving vehicles will replace private ownership of vehicles.

It probably won't replace it for everyone, but it could replace it for lots of people. If you live in a large urban center, you might not want, or be able to afford, to pay for parking. If you're like me and work from home 5 days a week, your vehicle usage may be much lower than it used to be. I considered a new truck last year, but doing the math on how much I was using it, it just didn't make much sense.


Quote:
After all, it has been possible to hire vehicles and participate in "vehicle share" programs for a very long time now. Private ownership doesn't seem to have gone away.

And the big difference is that these don't deliver the vehicle right to you. I could have signed up for such a service, but I would have needed a car just to get to where the car was, defeating the purpose. If it were possible to just call for a car on my phone, it would make such services much more useful.

There will always be those who choose to take the financial hit to own their own vehicle, but I'd be willing to bet that this segment of the user base will shrink significantly after a few years of practical self driving cars.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:53 AM   #180
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I haven't read the entire thread, but have we discussed the red light, moving backwards and forwards just over the bumper that all driverless cars should be required to have?

I assume that being able to talk to the car via one's watch is a given?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:56 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I haven't read the entire thread, but have we discussed the red light, moving backwards and forwards just over the bumper that all driverless cars should be required to have?
Yes, that's how we know the Teslas aren't really autonomous cars.

Quote:
I assume that being able to talk to the car via one's watch is a given?
The question will be whether you have to have an iWatch or a Fitbit.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:10 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I haven't read the entire thread, but have we discussed the red light, moving backwards and forwards just over the bumper that all driverless cars should be required to have?

I assume that being able to talk to the car via one's watch is a given?
Any colour as long as its black.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:28 PM   #183
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I'm not comfortable with turning Cylons into self-driving cars.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:55 PM   #184
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https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/7/1...ler-autonomous


wow

I would not have believed it,
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:49 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/7/1...ler-autonomous


wow

I would not have believed it,
Nice.
Step by step, little by little, we're getting there. I wants my Johnny Cab.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:34 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I wants my Johnny Cab.
Here ya go:

Navya unveils its self-driving taxi



Quote:
Navya, a French technology company, unveiled a self-driving sedan Tuesday, and it doesn't have the usual feature of a driver's seat.
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post


Interesting.

Quote:
It won't have a steering wheel or pedals, but a Navya employee will ride in the vehicle and be able to control it with a joystick.

They were working on joystick-based controls for regular cars many years ago, but it never seemed to go anywhere, largely due to obsolete rules concerning controls for cars. At the time, I thought they'd be a major improvement over the old control scheme. There's also the benefit that a center-mounted joystick could be used by either the right or left side passenger, meaning they could be marketed all over the world without having to provide two different versions based on which side of the road you drive on. It would also make it easy to trade off who drives at any one time, if needed.

This would also make self-driving cars more ergonomic, because you would not have a large part of the space taken up by traditional controls that only only used for a part of the drive, or only in an emergency.
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Old 9th November 2017, 06:56 AM   #188
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And now, this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3621441

Summary: Las Vegas apparently just started using self driving small buses, and on day one, one was involved in an accident. A truck backed into it. It "saw" the truck and stopped to avoid a collision, but the truck kept coming, and hit it. The driver of the truck was ticketed.

It really illustrates the problem with the current state of the art in self driving cars. Yes, it was the truck driver's fault, and yet, if that shuttle had been driven by a human, there would have been no accident. It's programming couldn't deal with the non-standard conditions that were occurring in its area, and couldn't take appropriate avoidance action. It stopped still, which was enough to avoid a ticket, but a more adaptable program, like the ones that make a driver's brain function, would have found an alternative that also avoided damage.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:09 AM   #189
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Did it blow the horn? Does the AI "understand" human hearing and the usefulness of horns?

Also, how does it react when it hears nearby cars blow their horns? Does it re-evaluate what it's doing sort of like, "oh, am I doing something wrong, or is that other driver just being an idiot?"
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:31 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did it blow the horn? Does the AI "understand" human hearing and the usefulness of horns?

Also, how does it react when it hears nearby cars blow their horns? Does it re-evaluate what it's doing sort of like, "oh, am I doing something wrong, or is that other driver just being an idiot?"
It has a large hand that comes out of the top and flips off the other driver.
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:17 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did it blow the horn? Does the AI "understand" human hearing and the usefulness of horns?

Also, how does it react when it hears nearby cars blow their horns? Does it re-evaluate what it's doing sort of like, "oh, am I doing something wrong, or is that other driver just being an idiot?"
I don't know about the bus in question, but there is this:

Gas, brake, honk: Google is teaching its self-driving car to assert itself

Quote:
“We’ve even taught our vehicles to use different types of honks depending on the situation. If another vehicle is slowly reversing towards us, we might sound two short, quieter pips as a friendly heads up to let the driver know we’re behind. However, if there’s a situation that requires more urgency, we’ll use one loud sustained honk. Our goal is to teach our cars to honk like a patient, seasoned driver.”


Sounds of the self-driving car
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:30 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Yeah, but can it say-

"You blind or something mate??"

or

"I see you didn't choose the indicators option with this car"
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:12 AM   #193
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Why Waiting for Perfect Autonomous Vehicles May Cost Lives

Quote:
“What we don’t think about is the trajectory that gets us from here to there,” Kalra said. “How important is it that autonomous vehicles are safe when they’re introduced versus how quickly they improve? Do we allow them on the roads when they’re like teenage drivers or do we wait for them to be as good as professional drivers? We’re helping to answer that question by quantifying the lives at stake.”
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:24 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
It has a large hand that comes out of the top and flips off the other driver.
Would it then be fired?
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:54 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And now, this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3621441

Summary: Las Vegas apparently just started using self driving small buses, and on day one, one was involved in an accident. A truck backed into it. It "saw" the truck and stopped to avoid a collision, but the truck kept coming, and hit it. The driver of the truck was ticketed.

It really illustrates the problem with the current state of the art in self driving cars. Yes, it was the truck driver's fault, and yet, if that shuttle had been driven by a human, there would have been no accident. It's programming couldn't deal with the non-standard conditions that were occurring in its area, and couldn't take appropriate avoidance action. It stopped still, which was enough to avoid a ticket, but a more adaptable program, like the ones that make a driver's brain function, would have found an alternative that also avoided damage.


This post is such a good example of everything that's wrong with the anti-driverless car position, I'm tempted to think it's a Poe.

An example of an accident that was caused by the human driver is being held up as an example of what's wrong with the driverless car, and not yet another good example of why the truck should not have been relying on a failure prone human.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:57 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
This post is such a good example of everything that's wrong with the anti-driverless car position, I'm tempted to think it's a Poe.

An example of an accident that was caused by the human driver is being held up as an example of what's wrong with the driverless car, and not yet another good example of why the truck should not have been relying on a failure prone human.

And I was going to mention, if we're playing the "what if" game, a human might have hastily backed away from the truck hitting an unseen pedestrian behind. Something I presume should be near impossible for the auto-car.

How did the driver miss that (fairly) tall blue mini-bus anyway?
Certainly wasn't vision restricted with that mostly glass truck cab.

And while I'm here... why the hell can't the mini-buses reverse (as the article claims)?
That seems odd. They're not hot rods, but at low speeds they should be exactly as safe in either direction... presuming sensor/video coverage.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:08 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And now, this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3621441

Summary: Las Vegas apparently just started using self driving small buses, and on day one, one was involved in an accident. A truck backed into it. It "saw" the truck and stopped to avoid a collision, but the truck kept coming, and hit it. The driver of the truck was ticketed.

It really illustrates the problem with the current state of the art in self driving cars. ...

It's early days, but I'm glad to see such a pilot program.
And Vegas is perfect for it... Mini-buses toodling around a tourist mecca.

And they already have a cool limited line with The Deuce.
It's a double-decker with a wicked cool panoramic front windscreen.

(would only be better if it was a train style cupola )
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:01 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And now, this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3621441

Summary: Las Vegas apparently just started using self driving small buses, and on day one, one was involved in an accident. A truck backed into it. It "saw" the truck and stopped to avoid a collision, but the truck kept coming, and hit it. The driver of the truck was ticketed.

It really illustrates the problem with the current state of the art in self driving cars. Yes, it was the truck driver's fault, and yet, if that shuttle had been driven by a human, there would have been no accident. It's programming couldn't deal with the non-standard conditions that were occurring in its area, and couldn't take appropriate avoidance action. It stopped still, which was enough to avoid a ticket, but a more adaptable program, like the ones that make a driver's brain function, would have found an alternative that also avoided damage.
Highlights what crap drivers humans can be. If the truck was also driverless it may well have detected the bus, the two may have even been able to wirelessly sequence themselves for the bus to pause to allow the truck to reverse and join the traffic, with minimal braking to affect the passengers.
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Old 10th November 2017, 04:43 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
This post is such a good example of everything that's wrong with the anti-driverless car position, I'm tempted to think it's a Poe.

An example of an accident that was caused by the human driver is being held up as an example of what's wrong with the driverless car, and not yet another good example of why the truck should not have been relying on a failure prone human.
I'm hardly anti driverless cars. I am actively engaged in an employment search right now trying to get paid to develop these things.


The fact is, though, that there are lots of jobs in this field right now precisely because there are lots of problems that still need to be solved.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:40 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm hardly anti driverless cars. I am actively engaged in an employment search right now trying to get paid to develop these things.


The fact is, though, that there are lots of jobs in this field right now precisely because there are lots of problems that still need to be solved.

Good luck with the search.

I will agree there're improvements to be made... even at this rather mundane level.
It appears the truck was angle backing into a bay or space between two buildings. This is the very definition of a "slow motion accident".
Barring traffic (now departed) or some obstruction behind... I'd expect the AV to be able to slowly reverse away even safer than a human driver.



eta: For now... the little blue bus appears to run painfully slow, and have ridiculously narrow seats.
That ain't gonna fly... this is America baby. Punch it... there's a buffet at the Grand with my name on it.

Here's a couple minutes of vid...

https://vimeo.com/198903714
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