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Old 9th March 2022, 07:23 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Morality Compromised By Christianity

The notion that you can be forgiven of your transgressions (sins if you like) just by accepting that Jesus died for you, so you could be absolved, is a harmful idea.*

I have heard Christians espouse, and embrace this idea on a number of occasions, whilst conceding that they have done some dubious deed. "But God, in His grace forgives me." I am told, as they comfort themselves.

* Any other religions have anything like this in there dogma?
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Old 10th March 2022, 12:39 AM   #2
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This comes from the same religious community that allowed you to pay your way out of sins. The local parish was pleased to accept donations for cleansing a soul.

It starts in a twisted mindset and doesn't improve with time.
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Old 10th March 2022, 01:05 AM   #3
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It doesn't seem to be unheard of in secular society to be executed for the sins of somebody else.
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Old 10th March 2022, 02:17 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
This comes from the same religious community that allowed you to pay your way out of sins. The local parish was pleased to accept donations for cleansing a soul.

It starts in a twisted mindset and doesn't improve with time.
That was literally the issue that kicked off the Protestant Reformation. And in fact commercial abuse of indulgences was largely ended at the Council of Trent in 1534-49.
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Old 10th March 2022, 02:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The notion that you can be forgiven of your transgressions (sins if you like) just by accepting that Jesus died for you, so you could be absolved, is a harmful idea.*

I have heard Christians espouse, and embrace this idea on a number of occasions, whilst conceding that they have done some dubious deed. "But God, in His grace forgives me." I am told, as they comfort themselves.

* Any other religions have anything like this in there dogma?
Is there any actual mass-market religion that doesn't have a "get out of jail card"? I can't think of any.
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Old 10th March 2022, 02:56 AM   #6
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Morality compromised by Christianity... say it isn't so
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Old 10th March 2022, 11:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The notion that you can be forgiven of your transgressions (sins if you like) just by accepting that Jesus died for you, so you could be absolved, is a harmful idea.*

I have heard Christians espouse, and embrace this idea on a number of occasions, whilst conceding that they have done some dubious deed. "But God, in His grace forgives me." I am told, as they comfort themselves.

* Any other religions have anything like this in there dogma?
Well, ...

the way that is originally supposed to work is that by accepting Jesus as the Messiah, then one gets his 'original sin' forgiven by God.

At first, the idea was, that even an absolutely perfect soul (such as a new born baby) always has that original sin, and therefore God can still send such a soul to Hell because that soul has some sin within it.

However, people who had the good fortune to be born after Jesus now have a way to avoid that whole original sin issue and thereby have a better chance of getting in heaven.

But later on, many Christians made things even more bizarre by forgetting about the original sin thing and stating that by accepting Jesus as the Messiah somehow gets every single one of your sins forgiven by God. And therefore, even the most evil person can get into heaven.

And if things are not bizarre enough, there are some Christian sects (such as Mormons) who believe in the concept of 'posthumous baptisms' that allow living people to baptize people who have died decades, even centuries before, in order to help these souls out of hell and get into heaven.

Yeah. It is really weird all right.
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Old 10th March 2022, 12:23 PM   #8
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In my experience this isn't generally used as a excuse to justify unrestrained sinning.
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Old 10th March 2022, 12:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In my experience this isn't generally used as a excuse to justify unrestrained sinning.
In the Protestant tradition I grew up in, the reasoning was that faith was irrelevant; it was all about what logically followed from that faith. Like, if you believed that Jesus was God (or a third of God or what have you), you would give your life to him and do exactly as he said. "If you love me, keep my commandments." "Go, and sin no more" was not a suggestion. It was a command and expectation. Faith was just the trigger. The rest of your days were the bullet.
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Old 10th March 2022, 04:22 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is there any actual mass-market religion that doesn't have a "get out of jail card"? I can't think of any.

Judaism doesn't seem to have.

I wonder about Islam. Is all that head banging in prayer supposed to be payment for sins committed? No-one has died and taken the sins on himself for them.
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Old 10th March 2022, 04:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
This comes from the same religious community that allowed you to pay your way out of sins. The local parish was pleased to accept donations for cleansing a soul.

It starts in a twisted mindset and doesn't improve with time.

Ah yes! The RCC always had a keen eye to find a money spinner, and those indulgences were a real beauty. I sure does need a twisted mind to blend this with the idea of Jesus dying for the sins of man, which by itself is crazy enough.
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Old 10th March 2022, 04:40 PM   #12
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Much of Christianity has been created in white American man’s image with a take on morality rooted in hypercapitslism and selfish individualism, driven by a tax free racket.

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Old 10th March 2022, 09:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Judaism doesn't seem to have.

I wonder about Islam. Is all that head banging in prayer supposed to be payment for sins committed? No-one has died and taken the sins on himself for them.

As far as I know it's simple worship. You prostrate yourself in front of the creator of everything as a way of acknowledging how great he is. And it's not unique to Islam. Several Christian groups practice some form of prostration or genuflection.
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Old 11th March 2022, 06:27 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is there any actual mass-market religion that doesn't have a "get out of jail card"? I can't think of any.
The cult of Cthulhu?
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Old 11th March 2022, 08:30 AM   #15
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Moralism is a cruel thing.
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Old 11th March 2022, 09:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know it's simple worship. You prostrate yourself in front of the creator of everything as a way of acknowledging how great he is. And it's not unique to Islam. Several Christian groups practice some form of prostration or genuflection.
The Muslim Grovel is an old Christian posture. When the Byzantines first saw Muslims doing it, they assumed they were dealing with some sort of Christian heretics. IOW, Mohammad borrowed it along with a lot of other stuff. Or his followers did. All religions are pastiches of superstitious muck.

Anybody with the least speck of creativity would invent something more useful than another ******* cult!
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Old 11th March 2022, 01:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Anybody with the least speck of creativity would invent something more useful than another ******* cult!
Have you read L. Ron Hubbard?
Yep! Not a speck!
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Old 11th March 2022, 02:20 PM   #18
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Unsurprisingly, this thread is based what amounts to a strawman. You can find some christians that basically believe it doesn't matter what you do as long as you really accept Jesus. Its pretty rare though.

For the most part, most Christians believe that you can be forgiven as long as you truly repent. Which is a bit more nuanced and valuable than the op suggests.
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Old 11th March 2022, 02:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know it's simple worship. You prostrate yourself in front of the creator of everything as a way of acknowledging how great he is. And it's not unique to Islam. Several Christian groups practice some form of prostration or genuflection.

True, and I have witnessed this in spades in a RCC ceremony, when a new priest was being put through the ropes.

What I was trying to establish was whether the notion that you could be saved by grace alone, existed in any other religion.

The Catholics jumble it all up somewhat, with the idea that you have to do penance for the sins you commit, which conflicts with the Jesus sacrifice doing that for you notion. They also have this purgatory place where you get further cleansed before being worthy. There is money to be made here.

Many modern day Christians take the grace idea on board with enthusiasm. Many would have seen the car stickers "Not Perfect Just Saved" and such. I have heard this from the mouths of new age Christians also, many times.
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Old 11th March 2022, 02:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Unsurprisingly, this thread is based what amounts to a strawman. You can find some christians that basically believe it doesn't matter what you do as long as you really accept Jesus. Its pretty rare though.

For the most part, most Christians believe that you can be forgiven as long as you truly repent. Which is a bit more nuanced and valuable than the op suggests.

Ah yes "Strawman", that always a winner.
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Old 11th March 2022, 03:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Unsurprisingly, this thread is based what amounts to a strawman. You can find some christians that basically believe it doesn't matter what you do as long as you really accept Jesus. Its pretty rare though.

For the most part, most Christians believe that you can be forgiven as long as you truly repent. Which is a bit more nuanced and valuable than the op suggests.
The nuance may only exist in apologetics.
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Old 11th March 2022, 08:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The notion that you can be forgiven of your transgressions (sins if you like) just by accepting that Jesus died for you, so you could be absolved, is a harmful idea.*

I have heard Christians espouse, and embrace this idea on a number of occasions, whilst conceding that they have done some dubious deed. "But God, in His grace forgives me." I am told, as they comfort themselves.
There are some caveats to forgiveness of sins ("sin no more", "forgive others" etc).
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Old 12th March 2022, 01:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Judaism doesn't seem to have.

I wonder about Islam. Is all that head banging in prayer supposed to be payment for sins committed? No-one has died and taken the sins on himself for them.
Look up their “Last confession” that’s where the Christians copied their last rites malarkey from.
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Old 13th March 2022, 05:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Look up their “Last confession” that’s where the Christians copied their last rites malarkey from.

Couldn't get much that makes any sense when I Googled "Judaism last confession". When I look into what the Jews thoughts are about life after death I get a lot of very vague stuff.


"Malarkey" - yes that a good word for it.

There are few better examples of Christian fuzzy thinking, than the business of administering "last rights" to the dying. I would estimate that the number who die shortly after being awake would be very small. The death is either the result of sudden accident, or occurs after a period in a coma. I have witnessed one of the former and two of the latter.
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Old 13th March 2022, 10:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I wonder about Islam. Is all that head banging in prayer supposed to be payment for sins committed? No-one has died and taken the sins on himself for them.
The Islamic path to Heaven is good behavior, which includes praying as part of it. There's no backup plan for bad behavior other than to make up for it with more good behavior.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In my experience this isn't generally used as a excuse to justify unrestrained sinning.
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Unsurprisingly, this thread is based what amounts to a strawman. You can find some christians that basically believe it doesn't matter what you do as long as you really accept Jesus. Its pretty rare though.
They might not necessarily say that that's what they think, but actions speak louder than words, and, for all their constant blather about being morally superior to the godless, the real-world fact is that they behave worse than us in every way by their own claimed standards. That's the behavior of people who actually do think they have an excuse for their bad behavior or a way out of responsibility for it, whether they admit thinking so or not.
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Old 13th March 2022, 11:03 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is there any actual mass-market religion that doesn't have a "get out of jail card"? I can't think of any.
Druze maybe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
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Old 14th March 2022, 03:55 AM   #27
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Since Christianity may compromise morality in some ways...

Where exactly does one find a comprehensive guide to secular morality? And what do we base it upon?

I'm trying to figure out where we derive our unit of measure for such conclusions.

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Old 14th March 2022, 04:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Much of Christianity has been created in white American man’s image with a take on morality rooted in hypercapitslism and selfish individualism, driven by a tax free racket.
Pretty sure that "much of Christianity" pre-dates America, as well as existing outside of it.
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Old 14th March 2022, 05:14 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I think they have the reincarnation card.
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Old 14th March 2022, 07:05 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Where exactly does one find a comprehensive guide to secular morality? And what do we base it upon?
There isn't one... just like there isn't for Christians either.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm trying to figure out where we derive our unit of measure for such conclusions.
No you're not. You're doing what Christians imagine is playing their almighty ultimate "Gotcha!" card.
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Old 14th March 2022, 07:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
There isn't one... just like there isn't for Christians either.

No you're not. You're doing what Christians imagine is playing their almighty ultimate "Gotcha!" card.
I'm not a Christian. I wouldn't call it a "gotcha" card; I'd call it a reasonable question.

I figure, if people are going to persecute religions for their approach to morality, they must have a well-defined set of guidelines that they follow. And, I'd like to know the origins of such.

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Old 14th March 2022, 07:27 AM   #32
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Christianity is not, and never was, a moral religion. Just a lot of diverse groups of people acting in their own interests to the detriment of outsiders.
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Old 14th March 2022, 08:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not a Christian. I wouldn't call it a "gotcha" card; I'd call it a reasonable question.

I figure, if people are going to persecute religions for their approach to morality, they must have a well-defined set of guidelines that they follow. And, I'd like to know the origins of such.
Prob the same as where Christianity got them. Stuff you need to function together in a society. Don't murder mother *******, don't lie to a judge about mother *******, don't bang a mother ******* wife...it all just kind of flows from getting along with people.
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Old 14th March 2022, 08:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not a Christian...
Of course not. You just happen to recite Christian blathering-points by complete coincidence, like this one:

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
if people are going to persecute religions...
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Old 14th March 2022, 08:45 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Of course not. You just happen to recite Christian blathering-points by complete coincidence, like this one:

That seems like an accusation, of sorts...which kind of proves my point about persecution of religious groups. The issue, as stated, is how do we proclaim our personal morality to be superior to that of another? What are we using as our standard of measure?

Certainly religious groups often proclaim their morality to be superior. They usually have a guiding text. What do the rest of us have that gives us our sense of moral superiority, that we might judge others? How do we identify compromised morality, when we can't even agree upon what it is?

Last edited by Warp12; 14th March 2022 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 14th March 2022, 12:25 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That was literally the issue that kicked off the Protestant Reformation. And in fact commercial abuse of indulgences was largely ended at the Council of Trent in 1534-49.
And something like 82 of Luther's 95 theses posted on the door at Wittenberg were related to selling of indulgences. Yeah, he had other disagreements, but that was the basis for the reformation.

I always find it a hoot that 30 years after that, the Council of Trent basically vindicated him in that regard. Of course, by then they had burned so many bridges, including having him excommunicated, that it was too late. So he threw caution to the wind, and figured they'd just do the church their own way. So he is to the point of smuggling Katie out of the convent so they could marry. But that was just attack on tradition. His focus on Romans guided his change to theological teachings.

I always like to think about how things would have gone differently if the church had just conceded from the beginnig that he had a legitimate complaint. Actually, that's what he expected, and he thought there was room for compromise. But when they held fast, it sent him the other way.

If they had conceded on the indulgences from the beginning, would there really have been reconcilation as he implied? Or was Luther moving away theologically to the point where it wouldn't have been enough? I almost think the latter, but I also think the popularity of the Reformation would have taken a hit. It may have been relegated to the minor squirmishes that had been happening here and there.
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Old 14th March 2022, 01:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Since Christianity may compromise morality in some ways...

Where exactly does one find a comprehensive guide to secular morality? And what do we base it upon?

I'm trying to figure out where we derive our unit of measure for such conclusions.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Prob the same as where Christianity got them. Stuff you need to function together in a society. Don't murder mother *******, don't lie to a judge about mother *******, don't bang a mother ******* wife...it all just kind of flows from getting along with people.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That seems like an accusation, of sorts...which kind of proves my point about persecution of religious groups. The issue, as stated, is how do we proclaim our personal morality to be superior to that of another? What are we using as our standard of measure?

Certainly religious groups often proclaim their morality to be superior. They usually have a guiding text. What do the rest of us have that gives us our sense of moral superiority, that we might judge others? How do we identify compromised morality, when we can't even agree upon what it is?
Thermal is right.

To elaborate a bit more, morality evolved and you can demonstrate that by looking at the behavior of animals. Non-human primates, for example, have an innate sense of fairness. So do we. Empathy, some forms of altruism and so on can be shown to be a function of the brain when we look at people who have damages to specific parts of the brain.

As for exact measures and actual superiority, it doesn't work like that in people or in religions. The idea that Christians get their morality from their religious beliefs is an easily disproved POV. They also do not have any consistent morality based on the Christian religion. If they did why are there so many different versions?

Is racism a Christian value? Is Prosperity Gospel? Is eating seafood and wearing clothes made of two different kinds of fibers a sin?

As to variability, so is human morality variable. There are sociopaths and psychopaths who exist on the fringes of morality norms. And there are people who are altruistic to a fault. It's all about nature and nurture so it isn't fixed at birth though a surprising amount is. Watching studies of infant behavior shows interesting reactions to things like the mean stuffed bear and the nice stuffed bear. Moral behaviors develop in children with much predictability.

It always annoys me when people still believe morality comes from religious teaching or beliefs. You'd think all we atheists are out their sinning willy-nilly because, gasp, we have no moral principles.
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Old 14th March 2022, 01:18 PM   #38
Warp12
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thermal is right.

To elaborate a bit more, morality evolved and you can demonstrate that by looking at the behavior of animals. Non-human primates, for example, have an innate sense of fairness. So do we. Empathy, some forms of altruism and so on can be shown to be a function of the brain when we look at people who have damages to specific parts of the brain.

As for exact measures and actual superiority, it doesn't work like that in people or in religions. The idea that Christians get their morality from their religious beliefs is an easily disproved POV. They also do not have any consistent morality based on the Christian religion. If they did why are there so many different versions?

Is racism a Christian value? Is Prosperity Gospel? Is eating seafood and wearing clothes made of two different kinds of fibers a sin?

As to variability, so is human morality variable. There are sociopaths and psychopaths who exist on the fringes of morality norms. And there are people who are altruistic to a fault. It's all about nature and nurture so it isn't fixed at birth though a surprising amount is. Watching studies of infant behavior shows interesting reactions to things like the mean stuffed bear and the nice stuffed bear. Moral behaviors develop in children with much predictability.

It always annoys me when people still believe morality comes from religious teaching or beliefs. You'd think all we atheists are out their sinning willy-nilly because, gasp, we have no moral principles.
Sounds to me like you are saying that morality is fairly subjective and arbitrary.

If that is indeed the case, I don't see where Christian beliefs about forgiveness are compromising anything of note.

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Old 14th March 2022, 01:24 PM   #39
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Sounds to me like you are saying that morality is fairly subjective and arbitrary.
I'd say it's more objective, till you get into the finer points. Kind of why morality is generally consistent across religions and the godless alike. It boils down to what an individual should do for the good for the survival/thriving of the group and it's members.
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Old 14th March 2022, 01:28 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It boils down to what an individual should do for the good for the survival/thriving of the group and it's members.
Oh, I don't know. That doesn't seem to ring true on some current hot-button issues. Societal norms seem to be drifting away from that notion. Personal choice is a theme that can be taken to limits, and often is, that do not benefit society as a whole.

Still, as I see it...zero case for Christians compromising morality via the concept of forgiveness.

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