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Old 26th April 2022, 12:19 AM   #121
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You mean apart from when the angel tells Abraham that now god knows Abraham fears him?

22:12
“…. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, …”

Seems pretty much about fear.
Okay well yeah apart from that bit. There is no description of Abraham actually doing anything out of fear (unlike, say, Gen 1:10-13), only that God says do, and he does.
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Old 26th April 2022, 01:53 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay well yeah apart from that bit. There is no description of Abraham actually doing anything out of fear (unlike, say, Gen 1:10-13), only that God says do, and he does.
Looking at several translations and they all have "fear of god" as the reason for Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son.

I suppose it could be a Hebrew metonymy for something else - but can't just put my hand on my Richard Elliott Friedman's Commentary of the Torah - which is annoying - to see if it is but it seems a clear word that is used with the English meaning of "fear" many times in the Old Testament.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:00 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Looking at several translations and they all have "fear of god" as the reason for Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son.

I suppose it could be a Hebrew metonymy for something else - but can't just put my hand on my Richard Elliott Friedman's Commentary of the Torah - which is annoying - to see if it is but it seems a clear word that is used with the English meaning of "fear" many times in the Old Testament.
The OT talks about fearing god rather a lot, actually. It's practically an idiom.

Okay, I accept your counter. Argument withdrawn.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:34 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
When on earth - and I mean that literally - was this “day 1”?
In the past.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The crappiest part of this story, IMO, is that it's a ******** test by God to see whether Abraham would blindly obey or not. He did, so God rewarded him. Abraham may have had faith in God, but this test illustrates that God did not have faith in Abraham, and needed to make sure that Abraham was fully on board.
I don't see where in the story it says that God required a test to satisfy his own curiosity, or doubts about Abraham. I'd assumed it was about providing a moral lesson about trusting God.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:47 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You mean apart from when the angel tells Abraham that now god knows Abraham fears him?

22:12
“…. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, …”

Seems pretty much about fear.
I don't think God fearing in this context is interpreted by Christians in the way you are interpreting it.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:51 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Looking at several translations and they all have "fear of god" as the reason for Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son.

I suppose it could be a Hebrew metonymy for something else - but can't just put my hand on my Richard Elliott Friedman's Commentary of the Torah - which is annoying - to see if it is but it seems a clear word that is used with the English meaning of "fear" many times in the Old Testament.
God fearing is a very common Christian expression. It does not mean what you are interpreting it to mean.
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Old 26th April 2022, 05:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
In the past.
Yesterday?
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:00 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't think God fearing in this context is interpreted by Christians in the way you are interpreting it.
Which Christians? And in which way?
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:16 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yesterday?
Maybe. It feels like longer, but it is so hard to tell.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:19 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
God fearing is a very common Christian expression. It does not mean what you are interpreting it to mean.
I am not using that expression.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:20 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which Christians? And in which way?
How about we start here as a zero effort beginner:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_o...0Holy%20Spirit.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Maybe. It feels like longer, but it is so hard to tell.
Your comment was indeed meaningless?
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:21 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am not using that expression.
Sure, you are looking at the word "fear" and interpreting it in a reductive, simplistic way that is different to how Christians use the word.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:21 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
How about we start here as a zero effort beginner:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_o...0Holy%20Spirit.
You seem to be going down some strange rabbit hole. When you come up for air let me know!
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:26 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to be going down some strange rabbit hole. When you come up for air let me know!
There are quotes there about what is meant by "fear". It means a combination of things like "awe".
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:28 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your comment was indeed meaningless?
Not to anybody who actually wanted a conversation rather than some drive by sniping.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:32 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Sure, you are looking at the word "fear" and interpreting it in a reductive, simplistic way that is different to how Christians use the word.
No I'm not.
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:32 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
There are quotes there about what is meant by "fear". It means a combination of things like "awe".
Nope. Did you not read your own source?
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Old 26th April 2022, 06:34 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Not to anybody who actually wanted a conversation rather than some drive by sniping.
Asking you a question about what you posted is "drive by sniping" - I suppose it is useful to know how you view questions about your posts.
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Old 26th April 2022, 07:52 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. Did you not read your own source?
Yes.
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Old 26th April 2022, 08:16 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Abraham didn't almost kill his son because of self-interest. The scripture doesn't say anything about why Abraham tried to obey God's instruction to kill his son, only that he did (Genesis chapter 22 if anyone's looking for it). The story is about blind obedience to authority, nothing to do with fear, or self-interest, or the wellbeing of his son. God said do this, and Abraham did it. That's all.

The crappiest part of this story, IMO, is that it's a ******** test by God to see whether Abraham would blindly obey or not. He did, so God rewarded him. Abraham may have had faith in God, but this test illustrates that God did not have faith in Abraham, and needed to make sure that Abraham was fully on board.
As a kid of around eight in my Church of England School I really wondered about this story.
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Old 26th April 2022, 08:22 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes.
Then you didn't understand it.
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Old 26th April 2022, 02:24 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
As a kid of around eight in my Church of England School I really wondered about this story.

Yes me too!

Interesting the way some here are putting their own meaning on the word fear, and suggesting that Christians do as well. If that is so then some revisions to the written word would seem to be in order, to get us all on track.
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Old 26th April 2022, 03:29 PM   #145
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Ironic that many ( most? ) Christians will tell you Christianity is about love, when it is really about fear. Fear of being punished by their loving god..
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Old 26th April 2022, 03:32 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Abraham didn't almost kill his son because of self-interest. The scripture doesn't say anything about why Abraham tried to obey God's instruction to kill his son, only that he did (Genesis chapter 22 if anyone's looking for it). The story is about blind obedience to authority, nothing to do with fear, or self-interest, or the wellbeing of his son. God said do this, and Abraham did it. That's all.
So, you think that killing his son to avoid annoying God, is not showing self-interest?

Quote:
The crappiest part of this story, IMO, is that it's a ******** test by God to see whether Abraham would blindly obey or not. He did, so God rewarded him. Abraham may have had faith in God, but this test illustrates that God did not have faith in Abraham, and needed to make sure that Abraham was fully on board.
You would think God, using His abilities, would be able to just peek into Abraham's brain to check this out, wouldn't you?
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Old 26th April 2022, 03:43 PM   #147
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Quote:
You would think God, using His abilities, would be able to just peek into Abraham's brain to check this out, wouldn't you?
Try using this logic in your next discussion with a believer..
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Old 26th April 2022, 03:45 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Ironic that many ( most? ) Christians will tell you Christianity is about love, when it is really about fear. Fear of being punished by their loving god..
If you substitute a different meaning into the text to the ones Christians read into it, then yes....
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Old 26th April 2022, 05:20 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you substitute a different meaning into the text to the ones Christians read into it, then yes....
This is getting a bit much. Not only do you claim to have some insight into what my born again nephew is thinking, but now you speak on behalf of all Christians, in saying they see the text as having a different meaning, to what others here see - the literal meaning.

Here are a couple of snippets from Deuteronomy you could favour us with a translation of - from a Christians perspective:

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name."

I have always had an issue with the notion, that you can be commanded to love someone, but perhaps you can help me here. Does love not mean love, as most of us heathens know it?
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Old 26th April 2022, 07:13 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So, you think that killing his son to avoid annoying God, is not showing self-interest?
Only inasmuch as humans do everything out of self-interest.

Quote:
Young Man. Hang it, where is the sense in his becoming brave if he is to get no credit for it?

Old Man. Your question will answer itself presently. It involves an important detail of man's make which we have not yet touched upon.

Y.M. What detail is that?

O.M. The impulse which moves a person to do things—the only impulse that ever moves a person to do a thing.

Y.M. The only one! Is there but one?

O.M. That is all. There is only one.

Y.M. Well, certainly that is a strange enough doctrine. What is the sole impulse that ever moves a person to do a thing?

O.M. The impulse to content his own spirit—the necessity of contenting his own spirit and winning its approval.

Y.M. Oh, come, that won't do!

O.M. Why won't it?

Y.M. Because it puts him in the attitude of always looking out for his own comfort and advantage; whereas an unselfish man often does a thing solely for another person's good when it is a positive disadvantage to himself.

O.M. It is a mistake. The act must do him good, first; otherwise he will not do it. He may think he is doing it solely for the other person's sake, but it is not so; he is contenting his own spirit first—the other's person's benefit has to always take second place.
Mark Twain, What Is Man?

See the link for an extended - very extended - discussion of this philosophy. The tl;dr is that altruism only occurs because it makes the person doing the good deed personally satisfied that they did it.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You would think God, using His abilities, would be able to just peek into Abraham's brain to check this out, wouldn't you?
Yeah but as shuttlt said, it's more about demonstrating absolute obedience. God commanded Abraham to do the thing, Abraham did it unquestioningly, and was rewarded for it. It's a parable. I don't think anyone here believes that the event actually took place. It's a story told to illustrate the rewards of absolute obedience to God's authority. As such the reason that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son is completely irrelevant. Whatever reason he might have had - fear, self-interest, whatever - is completely subsumed by obedience to authority.

That's why shuttlt said that you were changing the story. You were making the reason relevant.
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Old 27th April 2022, 02:36 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's why shuttlt said that you were changing the story. You were making the reason relevant.
Even if the reason were relevant, the interpretation given to the motive isn't the one Christians typically believe. The story is being changed to argue that it's horrible that Christians believe something that they don't typically believe.
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Old 27th April 2022, 03:05 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you substitute a different meaning into the text to the ones Christians read into it, then yes....
Nope. Read your own source and you will see there are several different definitions used by some Christians. You need to show that the meaning you are picking is the one that applies in this case.
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Old 27th April 2022, 03:33 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. Read your own source and you will see there are several different definitions used by some Christians. You need to show that the meaning you are picking is the one that applies in this case.
I'm not picking a meaning. The only bit that takes the interpretation in this thread is the bit referring to Sam Harris. The section on Christianity explains what Christians actually think. It "is no servile fear, but rather a joyful awareness of God’s grandeur and a grateful realization that only in him do our hearts find true peace".
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:23 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
... It "is no servile fear, but rather a joyful awareness of God’s grandeur and a grateful realization that only in him do our hearts find true peace".
That is essentially not the universal interpretation of god-fearing across sects. Many of the charismatic sects tend to preach the wrath of god and fire and brimstone for the unbelievers.
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:58 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
That is essentially not the universal interpretation of god-fearing across sects. Many of the charismatic sects tend to preach the wrath of god and fire and brimstone for the unbelievers.
There is certainly that. They are a small minority of Christians though. For two thousand years, "fear" as outlined in this thread has not been the theological meaning of this bit of text. Taking the ravings of some ignorant revivalist preacher as representing Christianity is like representing all liberals by the people dredged up by LibsOfTikTok. It's parochial. I'm still doubtful that fear, as in fear of an abusive tyrant, is what is meant by even most of those sects. There are lots of examples of it being explained as something much more like awe and respect.
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Old 27th April 2022, 05:01 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not picking a meaning. The only bit that takes the interpretation in this thread is the bit referring to Sam Harris. The section on Christianity explains what Christians actually think. It "is no servile fear, but rather a joyful awareness of God’s grandeur and a grateful realization that only in him do our hearts find true peace".
"Fear of God may refer to fear itself,"
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Old 27th April 2022, 05:08 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"Fear of God may refer to fear itself,"
You accidentally missed off the end of that sentence Darat. I'll help you. The full sentence is this:

"Fear of God may refer to fear itself, but more often to a sense of awe, and submission to, a deity"

We are defaulting to an atypical meaning of the word here, why? You guys mean fear in the first sense, Sam Harris quoted in the article mentions it in that sense. The Christian sources quoted in the article don't use it in that sense. I know, being the mod of all mods, you aren't trying to be petty or play cute language games, otherwise I'd think you were a troll. I can tell by the way I can't put you on ignore that you can't be.

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Old 27th April 2022, 07:19 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is getting a bit much. Not only do you claim to have some insight into what my born again nephew is thinking, but now you speak on behalf of all Christians, in saying they see the text as having a different meaning, to what others here see - the literal meaning.

Here are a couple of snippets from Deuteronomy you could favour us with a translation of - from a Christians perspective:

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name."

I have always had an issue with the notion, that you can be commanded to love someone, but perhaps you can help me here. Does love not mean love, as most of us heathens know it?
Wait a minute, does not JC in Matthew 5:33-5:36 tell Christians not to swear oaths at all?
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Old 27th April 2022, 08:21 AM   #159
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is getting a bit much. Not only do you claim to have some insight into what my born again nephew is thinking, but now you speak on behalf of all Christians, in saying they see the text as having a different meaning, to what others here see - the literal meaning.

Here are a couple of snippets from Deuteronomy you could favour us with a translation of - from a Christians perspective:

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name."

I have always had an issue with the notion, that you can be commanded to love someone, but perhaps you can help me here. Does love not mean love, as most of us heathens know it?
How do you think just quoting some other bit of scripture that uses the word "fear" resolves anything? I have given you quotes of the Pope and others explaining what "fear" in this context means. Your response is "but it says fear here also". And?
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Old 27th April 2022, 09:39 AM   #160
HansMustermann
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Going into what fear meant to the Hebrews in BCE times seems to me like a rather irrelevant detour, since the people whose morals may or may not be undermined by it are not ancient Hebrews and don't have it read to them in Hebrew in church. (Well, apart from possibly a few Christians in Israel.) What matters is how it's understood NOW.

And lo and behold, firebrand preachers banking on literal fear of god are a thing. And used to be even bigger a thing a century or more ago.
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