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Old 3rd November 2007, 05:00 AM   #1
OneShotKi11
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Ouija board

Im pretty sure this has been brought up many times before but i was curious as to what kind of responses i would get.

In accordance with the challenge would a Ouija board user fall under this category?

I for one cannot ever get the dam thing to work, but i have watched my mother many times sit down and get it to move. Now i have inspected the dam thing over and over and watched how slightly she touches the dial yet it moves rather fast and steady. I have also seen the board unexplainable shake rather fiercely when one of the people took there hands off the dial.

Is this something that could be explained, and could it be something that if performed infront of researchers in a controlled environment win the challenge.

I feel that even if it is explainable wouldnt it still be considered paranormal if done according to the rules in which a Ouija board is used?

Im just curious as to what some of you may say, and also a little curious as to if this could win the challenge.
If it could win my mother is getting woken up right now and brushing up on those Ouija skills.....lolz
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Old 3rd November 2007, 05:22 AM   #2
Ravenwood
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The short answer, is yes, many times...
I suggest you start with Googling the IDEOMOTOR EFFECT. The Ouija board has been debunked more times than I care to recall, searching the threads will give you more info than you can imagine.
I have a protocol for testing that you might want to try. Randomly select 20 words from the dictionary, write them down & put them in a sealed envelope. have her ask the board for those words & have her or someone there who is unaware of what is on the list write them down. Now compare the two...
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Old 3rd November 2007, 05:50 AM   #3
OneShotKi11
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Im srry but wouldnt the movement of the dial be considered paranormal and impossible without some AID. From what i have seen the thing is barely even skinned when using it but seems to fly around the board.

I wasnt talking about the stupid answers it gives i know what people will say about that. I was talking more in line with how the thing moves!
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Old 3rd November 2007, 06:01 AM   #4
Biff Starbuck
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Ravenwood answered your question. The Ouija pointer moves because the people with their fingers on it are moving it. The ideomotor effect explains the process where people can move their hands without their conscious mind knowing it. If someone is talking about typing often their fingers will make a gesture as if they are typing. The if you ask the person later if they made such a gesture, they might not even have known they were doing it.

It would be paranormal if the pointer moved without being touched, or blown on, or moved with magnets, etc. The pointer is intentionally designed to have minimal friction with the board, and to easily slide with minimal effort. Try using a brick as your pointer and it will not work as well. On the other hand, an air-hockey puck floating on air with almost no friction would be even better than the currently used pointer.

As you point out, it is barely being touched, but that slight touch by the user is enough to move the pointer. It might make us say "wow!" but it is not paranormal.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 06:01 AM   #5
madurobob
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Originally Posted by OneShotKi11 View Post
Im srry but wouldnt the movement of the dial be considered paranormal and impossible without some AID. From what i have seen the thing is barely even skinned when using it but seems to fly around the board.

I wasnt talking about the stupid answers it gives i know what people will say about that. I was talking more in line with how the thing moves!
As Ravenwood said, google IDEOMETER EFFECT. Thats how it moves.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 06:18 AM   #6
Rob Lister
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no, the ideometer effect is NOT how it works...at least in the case of OneShotKi11's mom.

her method was pure and simple deception.

Why? I don't know. There doesn't seem to be much profit other than intrigue. I guess that's profit enough for most.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 08:36 PM   #7
OneShotKi11
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Yes but i was an observer and wasnt involved, I was the third person in the party so i dont know how this logic could apply to me.

I am actually going to ask my mother and cousin to do it again while i watch a little closer because it was a long time ago that i observed!
Possible deception but i highly doubt it because like i said i watched the board frantically move when one person hands left the board. Now i know someone is going to come and say well where is my video evidence. Sorry but i wasnt thinking JREF million dollar challenge when it was being done, but now i am definitely interested in getting her to do it again while i hawk eye the situation.

The board moving was the most unexplainable thing that happened that night. I could have just been fooled by being so caught in the moment so i will try and do it again, and this time get evidence atleast some footage that you guys could say is fake or what not if it does infact occur again.

PS please dont attack me like im lying that would be rather pointless because i am not claiming for a fact it didnt occur because of what you guys have stated only merely telling you what i have observed!

Last edited by OneShotKi11; 3rd November 2007 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 09:32 PM   #8
Slimething
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Originally Posted by OneShotKi11 View Post
I am actually going to ask my mother and cousin to do it again while i watch a little closer because it was a long time ago that i observed!
Blindfold her and use a board with a different layout. The shaking could be caused by a number of things and you'd have to design a detection system to cover the possibilities. My guess is that, if your mother was nowhere near a table leg the shaking would not occur.

Quote:
PS please dont attack me like im lying that would be rather pointless because i am not claiming for a fact it didnt occur because of what you guys have stated only merely telling you what i have observed!
You have to realize we get all types in here so please don't take offense. Thanks for the report.

Good luck.
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Old 4th November 2007, 02:20 AM   #9
OneShotKi11
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Originally Posted by Slimething View Post
Blindfold her and use a board with a different layout. The shaking could be caused by a number of things and you'd have to design a detection system to cover the possibilities. My guess is that, if your mother was nowhere near a table leg the shaking would not occur.



You have to realize we get all types in here so please don't take offense. Thanks for the report.

Good luck.
If it was that simple i wouldnt be confused, the shaking occurred on my dam Sofa bed. For those who have the crap ass beds they will know there not the best for bouncing or movement. I am actually talking to my mother as of right now and she is still amazed by it and would like to try and use it again!

This might make me rich lolz!!! Hopefully i cant get this done again cause i could use the money!
The board did some amazing things and would really like to prove it to people now even thought its not me who can do it!
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Old 4th November 2007, 03:30 AM   #10
RemieV
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Originally Posted by OneShotKi11 View Post
If it was that simple i wouldnt be confused, the shaking occurred on my dam Sofa bed. For those who have the crap ass beds they will know there not the best for bouncing or movement. I am actually talking to my mother as of right now and she is still amazed by it and would like to try and use it again!

This might make me rich lolz!!! Hopefully i cant get this done again cause i could use the money!
The board did some amazing things and would really like to prove it to people now even thought its not me who can do it!
If she is touching the board at the time it moves 'by itself' or is touching the same surface it is sitting on, then it will absolutely not qualify for the Challenge.

If the board really does move by itself when she stops touching it, then surely she can have it on a surface she is not sitting or leaning on (I would suggest a kitchen counter) and not touch the counter with any part of her body whatsoever after removing her fingers from the planchette, and it will still move. Try it out. And feel free to make it into a Youtube video. Sounds like it would be fascinating to see.
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Old 4th November 2007, 03:32 AM   #11
RemieV
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Oh, and to ensure it's not being blown on? I would suggest that she have her head turned away from the board while this test is being conducted.
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Old 4th November 2007, 03:57 AM   #12
Soapy Sam
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It seems to me that there are three ouija board effects to explain;
1. The movement of the planchette.
2. The apparent communication of information.
3. The absence of similar effects in similar mechanical, but different psychological contexts.

1. There are several designs of board, but in essence it's a movable bit , usually called the planchette,which is on some sort of friction reducing bearing, and a static part, which is any flat surface. Stripped of the psi aspect, this is just a simple machine.
If psi forces can move the planchette without anyone touchng it, then there is no reason they cannot move any similar object- a skateboard, a ball bearing race, a car,a mouse or touchpad- any machine at all. Yet this is not our everyday experience.

If the planchette moves only when people are touching it, the most likely source of kinetic energy has to be the people.


Ideomotor effect strikes me as only a partial answer. It does not address item 3.
All of us use mice or trackballs, or other pointing devices daily, yet see no ideomotor effect. I assume (and as always, await correction) that this is probably because only one person at a time touches the mouse and the user's intentionality is consciously focussed.
An interesting experiment then might be to get two or three people on the same mouse and see what happens.

As for item 2 above, the "messages", I have yet to hear of any ouija board users learning anything provable that one of them could not have already known.

To anyone who wishes to do this test, here is a target. On my wall before me is a piece of paper with the letters "JREF" on it. Below that is another word. What is that word, please?

If you feel this test is too hard, devise a fair one yourself, or have a (preferably sceptical) friend do so for you.
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Old 4th November 2007, 04:34 AM   #13
chillzero
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
If she is touching the board at the time it moves 'by itself' or is touching the same surface it is sitting on, then it will absolutely not qualify for the Challenge.
Surely not ... if she is blindfolded, and then the board out before her (so she doesn't know where the letters are) and can still spell out sensible words, this would qualify. Particularly if she spells out words that are kept secret from her, in an envelope or something.
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Old 4th November 2007, 05:27 AM   #14
OneShotKi11
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My mother is swearing up and down that she can get this thing to work again so it will be interesting to try out!
Especially with all the suggestions made to make the experiment a little more official!
I will definately update you guys on this for those that might care about the outcome. Even if it fails and my mother looks like a total loser for wasting my time i will give you guys the heads up so you can all chuckle at me for the day!
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Old 4th November 2007, 05:53 AM   #15
colin
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Well, you’ve had some very good suggestions here. Whatever you decide to try, please try to double-blind your experiments. Self-deception is a powerful thing.

Good luck!
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Old 4th November 2007, 06:53 AM   #16
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by OneShotKi11 View Post
My mother is swearing up and down that she can get this thing to work again so it will be interesting to try out!
...
'Course she does. Until some controls are installed. Then she will change her tune quickly.


Some reading material for you, OneShotKi11, Mr. Conger applied for the JREF Challenge with a similar claim.


Allow me to sum it up for you: Lots of talk, no action. And of course no controlled test of the claimed phenomenon.

Please keep us posted on how the tests went.
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Old 4th November 2007, 08:02 AM   #17
Senex
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The traditional method of humiliating a Ouija board user is to blindfold them (stuff something vile up the spaces between both sides of the nose to make sure they aren't peeking by looking down). Spin the board upside down after they are blindfolded. Ask "yes or no" questions and they will push the pointer to the top of the board which would have indicated a yes or no answer if the board wasn't spined upside down. Now they are pushing the pointer to nowhere. You may or may not laugh at thier expense. That's up to you.

Last edited by Senex; 4th November 2007 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 4th November 2007, 12:16 PM   #18
Slimething
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Originally Posted by OneShotKi11 View Post
Even if it fails and my mother looks like a total loser for wasting my time i will give you guys the heads up so you can all chuckle at me for the day!
Your mom would not be a loser. Lots of intelligent people are fooled by the ideomotor effect as it's involuntary. When (not if) she fails to demonstrate, don't ridicule her. Explain to her that her body is merely following her desires, albeit imperceptively. Thus, a skeptic is born.

Best wishes to your and your mom.
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Old 4th November 2007, 02:04 PM   #19
RemieV
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
Surely not ... if she is blindfolded, and then the board out before her (so she doesn't know where the letters are) and can still spell out sensible words, this would qualify. Particularly if she spells out words that are kept secret from her, in an envelope or something.
No, no, I'm referring to what he said earlier about the entire board moving of its own accord when people's fingers are taken away from the planchette. That is much simpler to test than a psychic Ouija board that reads the inside of envelopes.
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Old 4th November 2007, 02:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
No, no, I'm referring to what he said earlier about the entire board moving of its own accord when people's fingers are taken away from the planchette. That is much simpler to test than a psychic Ouija board that reads the inside of envelopes.
well, no - actually, you said:

Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
If she is touching the board at the time it moves 'by itself' or is touching the same surface it is sitting on, then it will absolutely not qualify for the Challenge.
I was responding to that. The Challenge could still be applied for.

(Edit to remove sentence that basically said what Remie said. Sorry - mis-read it.)

Last edited by chillzero; 4th November 2007 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 4th November 2007, 02:41 PM   #21
RemieV
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
well, no - actually, you said:



I was responding to that. The Challenge could still be applied for.

(Edit to remove sentence that basically said what Remie said. Sorry - mis-read it.)
Yes, but I was referring to a specific claim.

This is how I was responding:

General Claim: Ouija boards work.

Specific Claim that I was responding to regarding that: The Ouija Board jiggles when his mother's fingers are removed from the planchette without any intervention by any party present.

Now, again, if in that specific claim she touches the Ouija board or the surface it is sitting on, it absolutely will not qualify for the Challenge.

If it cannot be done, and she cannot make the Ouija Board jiggle without touching the board or the surface, then we go back to the General Claim and start again. At that point, the envelope idea is possible. The turning the Ouija board around and seeking 'yes' wherever it may be is possible. There are many specific claims that come out of Ouija Boards that would then be possible.

However, the Ouija Jiggling would not be.
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Old 4th November 2007, 02:44 PM   #22
chillzero
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Yes, sorry. I realised after my last post that this was what you meant. However, my confusion arose because I don't read the OP as claiming that the board was deliberately moved by the poster's mother; rather that it had happened to move unexpectedly when someone else let go of the planchette.

In any case - sorry.
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Old 4th November 2007, 10:23 PM   #23
Czarcasm
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We are talking about a Ouija board here, right?
The one made by Parker Brothers?
In various factories around the world?
Using modern machinery, mostly untouched by human hands?
By the millions?
The cardboard and plastic game?
One last question:

Why is anybody taking this seriously?
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Old 4th November 2007, 10:26 PM   #24
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
...

Why is anybody taking this seriously?
I do not.
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Old 5th November 2007, 11:13 AM   #25
Slimething
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Why is anybody taking this seriously?
Look up the difference between skepticism and cynicism and you'll have your answer.
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